Post Chuck Vs. The American Hero Reaction Thread

Now that we’ve actually seen it…

My comments will follow later, but have at it after the jump.

I just thought it best to separate speculation from reaction.

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About Ernie Davis

I was born in 1998, the illegitimate brain child and pen name of a surly and reclusive misanthrope with a penchant for anonymity. My offline alter ego is a convicted bibliophile and causes rampant pognophobia whenever he goes out in public. He wants to be James Lileks when he grows up or Dave Barry if he doesn’t.  His hobbies are mopery, curling and watching and writing about Chuck.  Obsessively.  Really, the dude needs serious help.
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525 Responses to Post Chuck Vs. The American Hero Reaction Thread

  1. Waverly says:

    That was fun.

    I’m impressed that most of what people were predicting here actually happened.

  2. DaveB says:

    Good, a little squirm worthy at times…One thing, though…Why would they have Sarah kill Eve? What is the evil logic behind that?

    Next…

    There were really few surprises in this, except Chuck wanting to ditch it all and run away with Sarah…Which, when one considers Chuck’s state of mind, perhaps isn’t such a surprise after all…

    There was a great concept, though…Chuck, Sarah, Casey and Morgan in Rome…Casey as the driver, Morgan as the butler, I mean…Who could resist it?

    • weaselone says:

      I actually called that he was feeling that way last week. Giving I was about 50:50 for this episode, I figured I’d just give myself a few pats on the back.

      I agree about the concept of Casey, Sarah, Chuck and Morgan in Rome.

    • Gord says:

      I would love them to do a few episodes like that before heading back to Burbank.

  3. Ernie Davis says:

    OK, it’s a little early to answer, or judge. I probably need to do some re-watching, but it seems to me that they hung the entire success of this series on the acting chops of Brandon Routh and the character Daniel Shaw.

    And now, the Sarah Walker who allowed herself to be manipulated into seducing Chuck into a no win situation where he had to kill a man or die judges him on a moral code she can’t even remotely approach, but she’s worthy of him and he isn’t a doormat. Wow, that was a special payoff. Thanks.

    • weaselone says:

      I came into this episode willing to forgive and they nearly lost me with Sarah’s behavior at the beginning of the episode. OD and others had sold us on Sarah’s self loathing being the root of her rejection of Chuck, but there was little of that in evidence early on. It seemed more like the application of a double standard, maybe not in regards to Sarah herself killing, but certainly between Shaw and Chuck. Sarah could have feelings for Shaw even though he was a killer, while Chuck was unworthy of those feelings unless his hands were bloodless.

      Still, things generally got better on that front and the stalking was well handled for comedic effect while minimizing any negative connotations it had for Chuck’s character. I’m curious what’s going down next week and what exactly Shaw’s plan is.

      • JC says:

        One thing my sound went out for a couple seconds, did she really say “I don’t trust you” to Chuck.

      • herder says:

        Yeah, that was one of the bits that bothered me, a mean kick at Chuck.

      • weaselone says:

        Something to that effect when Chuck first indicated that his red test was not exactly as it appeared.

      • Crumby says:

        Chuck said something like “you have to believe” and she said “I don’t”.

        He should had said something like then “I don’t ask you to believe me, but to trust me” lol. Helicopter.

    • kg says:

      Absolutely.

      And what really bothered me was that she didn’t believe him when he attempted to explain, partially.

      OK. She made an assumption. And although she has no leg to stand on, she’s morally judging Chuck anyway. But what bothered me the most was this direct quote. “I saw you kill Perry.”

      What? Sarah Walker used to be a top-notch agent. She didn’t see jack. She heard a shot and from a distance saw Chuck standing over the body.

      Still, a fascinating episode overall. Many things going on.

  4. John says:

    It wasn’t perfect but it was the sort of episode that reminds me why I love this show. Totally fun, heartwarming, and so forth. It was the sort of episode we used to get on a weekly basis and looking forward to next week.

  5. mister says:

    Even though the general speculation was pretty accurate that was much better than expected

    SAVE ONE SHOW IS ON

    http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b173297_save_one_show_on_get_in_here_vote_people.html

  6. sd says:

    Hi all…

    I posed this on another post….who thinks Sarah was on her way to Chuck or Shaw when Casey knocked on her door?

    • JLR says:

      IMO, it can’t be said definitively. I have no idea what her decision was prior to Casey’s mea culpa. This probably wasn’t the “clean” resolution wanted by some.

    • Fake Empire says:

      Chuck, IMHO.

    • dungeonmasterlevel4 says:

      Call me crazy optimistic here, but if you look closely, right at the beginning of the scene as Sarah’s packing her bag, you can see a picture of her and Chuck on her nightstand. Maybe she had already picked Chuck?

      • Faith says:

        What? I have to see this again…

      • Crumby says:

        Yeah she still have this picture. Chuck has it too on the kitchen bar.

      • Fake Empire says:

        I’m glad to see Sarah replaced the picture with a new one. That’s the same pic she threw a pencil into during Cougars.

      • Anonymous says:

        Yes, I agree. She had already made the choice of Chuck. When she is initially packing in that scene she has a picture of her and Chuck on the nightstand. We must assume she took that down when she was “with” Shaw (or Shaw is into some weird stuff). How many of us keep pictures of the ex on the nightstand while dating someone else? That means when she made her decision she put it back up, leading me do believe it was Chuck. I believe the relief on her face (and the thanking of Casey) when Casey tells her he killed the mole is due to her realizing she did not ruin Chuck and turn him into a killer. This also leads me to believe that a major reason that she could not be with Chuck if he killed someone is that she wouldn’t be able to live with HERSELF if he did it. Not that she couldn’t live with him. She did not have any influence on Shaw or Bryce’s decision to make that decision. That is why she could date them; nothing for her to feel guilty about there. She did have bearing on Chuck’s decision and that would have been reason for her guilt.

      • StrikerChuck says:

        Yes, I agree. She had already made the choice of Chuck. When she is initially packing in that scene she has a picture of her and Chuck on the nightstand. We must assume she took that down when she was “with” Shaw (or Shaw is into some weird stuff). How many of us keep pictures of the ex on the nightstand while dating someone else? That means when she made her decision she put it back up, leading me do believe it was Chuck. I believe the relief on her face (and the thanking of Casey) when Casey tells her he killed the mole is due to her realizing she did not ruin Chuck and turn him into a killer. This also leads me to believe that a major reason that she could not be with Chuck if he killed someone is that she wouldn’t be able to live with HERSELF if he did it. Not that she couldn’t live with him. She did not have any influence on Shaw or Bryce’s decision to make that decision. That is why she could date them; nothing for her to feel guilty about there. She did have bearing on Chuck’s decision and that would have been reason for her guilt.

    • Jason says:

      by and large, sarah continues to have the brains of a pea pod in season 3, including the decision to go with shaw at the end, but overall, what a great episode, 13 of them and renewal would not have been an issue

    • Jason says:

      the show castle is nearing some PLI intro’s from what I read, but today a female agent “shaw’ told kate beckett that castle was in love with beckett, asked her if she was ready to move into a relationship with castle, answer “it’s complicated’ – I think I might forever become immune to angst issues, after this season 3 chuck experience, I find other shows doing it more fummy / stupid than anything

      • atcdave says:

        I’m convinced most people don’t enjoy that type of storytelling. I think it goes mainly to the late 70s idea (so-called “Moonlighting model”) that the show could only last as long as tension was maintained. It truley makes no sense. Movies and serials from prior decades rarely used such techniques. Its quite easy to find older material with happy/committed couples in the lead. But now it seems would-be screen writers are taught a romance can only work with the same sort of cliff-hangers as the central plot. The problem is, I think most viewers are way past tired of that sort of stuff. We live in an age of increased uncertainty; jobs are unsteady, divorce rate is high. The writing style may be a reflection of the age we live in; but I’m convinced most viewers would rather watch something better, and more fun than reality; not more of the same.

      • r1p says:

        Castle has a completely different dynamic than Chuck. The problem with Chuck is that in season 2, if Chuck and Sarah didn’t have any professional reasons they could not be together, they would be. In most other shows, the WT/WT consists of both characters denying that they want a relationship, and then jealousy whenever they go after someone else.

        I do love Castle though.

      • atcdave says:

        Oh I love Castle too. With Burn Notice these are easily my three favorite shows. Part of what’s different on Castle is just that the pacing is much slower. We’re approaching the end of S2, and there is no particular reason to think Rick and Kate are coming together yet.
        But even there I don’t like the triangle; it damages the chemistry that makes the show fun. Its no where near a make or break situation like on Chuck.

      • Faith says:

        hey R1p, how did you get here 😛 lol.

        CN8…btw in case you didn’t know.

    • Crumby says:

      She said to Casey that he really didn’t need to plead for Chuck. I took it as she had already chosen him.

    • Jen says:

      SOmethign tells me she had already picked Chuck. There was somethign in her demeanor, her face, and in teh way she tried to tell Casey tehre was no need to plead Chuck’s case. Her smile to Casey when he was leaving IMHO seals her decision.

      Why she went with Chuck in the end? i guess cause she’s a professional with a job to do? you would thinkg, though, that between leaving her hote room and being ut in the middle on nowhere with Shaw, she would have been able to reach Chuck.

      • John says:

        Yeah the whole ‘no signal with my phone’ thing was a lame plot device and made no sense unless Routh had some sort of signal jammer on his car…in which case Sarah should have noticed.

        But seriously what major road in the US these days has no signal? My uncles farm in the middle of Oklahoma has a freaking signal and he is 3 hours from the nearest urban area and miles from the nearest paved road.

      • Matt Simons says:

        I have seen a jammer that would fit inside a cd jewel-case. The circuitry is very simple. The difficulty is creating one with a wide enough bandwidth to jam the phone, but narrow enough to not jam the radio stations.

      • Jen says:

        and that is where we are asked to use our imagination to fill in the wholes and cover up for things that don’t quite make sense.
        The ILY declaration of Chuck to Srah covers that one up for me =P

      • Matt Simons says:

        I was just using prior knowledge to fill in what could have been perceived as a hole in the story. If indeed there was a jammer, it could be something innocuous, that even a spy would miss.

    • amyabn says:

      I think she had decided to go with Chuck. I went back and looked to see if I saw the picture of them in Final Exam but they didn’t show the nightstand. I don’t recall seeing any of the pics of them in 3 Words. I think her line to Casey “Well if you came to plead his case it isn’t necessary” and the way it was delivered said that she had made up her mind. The revelation was just the cherry on top, confirming she made the right choice. Just my 2 cents.

  7. herder says:

    Well, it definitely made me want to watch next week, something that many of this year’s episodes didn’t always do. There was fun and excitement and to be honest a certain amount of releif that we are coming to the end of this destructive arc. The Beard was more fun and Final Exam was more tense, but this was a very good episode.

    I’m a bit disapointed that they had to go have Sarah kick Chuck a few more times in the you know whats, but then again that was forseeable. Her motivations still are somewhat unclear but then again they have been for most of this season. It seems that the only times she speaks with Chuck is to knock him down. I hope that they let her have her say next episode.

    It seems that we are to beleive that Shaw has essentially kidnapped her at the end of this episode, but the synopsis for the next is that the three of them reunite and Chuck doubts Shaw’s stability but Sarah thinks that he can handle the mission. So despite an apparant decision being made here I think the angst will continue.

    I will say that there were some truely great bits in this one. I think my favorite was Ellie’s “you’re a Bartowski, act like it”. Morgan on the ground after being tasered saying he might need new pants and Jeffster being the Picasso of stalking. I liked Chuck saying that Sarah was right in Prague and his saying I love you again because it felt so good to say it. That and the return of the joke about Casey’s public exposure, in that same scene a great little bit, Awesome saying “the truth?” and Morgan giving a little shake of his head.

    Now that I think about it there were a lot more good little moments in this episode than in most this year, also with most of the cast (no Big Mike) they were also well spread out.

    • weaselone says:

      I have to admit, I doubted they could make stalking amusing again, but they succeeded admirably. The call back to Casey’s exposure was fantastic and Ellie’s speech to Chuck about not going far enough was quite an unexpected surprise.

    • Crumby says:

      Loved the unspoken “WHAT?!” on Casey’s face about his public exposure.

  8. Mike B says:

    All in all a very solid episode, still waiting for the epic payoff. All the supporting cast members were great. Sarah came off as a hypocritocal flake with a moral code that only applies to Chuck and not herself, don’t quite understand what TPTB had in mind with that one.

    • JLR says:

      Yeah, still hard for me to stomach Sarah’s motivations. I’m guessing those of us w/ problems concerning that will just have to forget about it.

    • DaveB says:

      I think the deal with Sarah is not so much a moral code as a loss of ideal. Chuck was clean and pure in her mind, and seeing him in the same pose as she had been threw all her images of herself onto Chuck. She in essence was treating Chuck like she treated herself, not because he was a killer like Shaw or Bryce, but because he allowed himself to change. It’s like the guy who seduces the virgin, then despises her because she’s no longer a virgin. Twisted? Yeah, but this is Hollywood.

    • Crumby says:

      I loved that Chuck said that she was rigth about him not being the same guy she met 3 years ago, though.

      • amyabn says:

        I cringed when he started that speech, but loved how it turned out.

      • Faith says:

        Can Chuck be articulate or what?

      • Crumby says:

        It also makes you understand how he often said that he was a loser back then. That’s how felt.

        It reminded me of Ellie’s speech in Sizzling Shrimp. Back then she told him, she knew that he felt stuck in his stupid Buy More job without any goals in his life and that meeting Sarah was the first great thing that happened to him in a while, so she understood his excitement about it (what she perceived as it).
        But she also told him that he was a good friend and a good brother and that she didn’t want him to forget and lose that.

        It sums up well the thing I think. Chuck is still the caring amazing guy that Sarah met three years ago, he always was that guy and always will be (Tic Tac). But Sarah gave him a purpose in his life and that changed that “loser” part of him.

        And well yeah, he really manned up in American Hero.

  9. joe says:

    Well this is interesting.

    I laughed a lot during this episode, but I was almost disappointed that Sarah was revealed as Eve’s killer. Spoiled!

    I can’t decide if Sarah was too comfortable with Shaw during the date (meaning, comfortable with herself) or just resigned to her situation. Both seem to be not quite right. Chuck’s deference to her decision (seemingly, to be with Shaw) seemed to be perfect, though. That part got to me in a very personal way.

    So if I allow myself to believe that Sarah could actually feel something for Shaw, and that he’s not just her rebound from Chuck, then it works nicely. But I’m not 100% sure I can do that.

    And as to Casey once more saving Chuck by revealing his secret, I felt relief, but not surprise. Now perhaps if I wasn’t spoiled…

    I absolutely had a reaction to Sarah’s joy at the end, that Chuck had not killed Perry. The reaction was “It took you long enough to realize he’s not a killer.” It was a combination of satisfaction and fulfilled expectancy tempered with impatience.

    Now we’re back to precisely where we all hoped to be at the end of The Three Words. Next weeks episode looks great!

    • atcdave says:

      I think I strongly agree with Joe on this (haven’t said that often this season!). I really enjoyed most of this episode. They did make the stalking funny again, excuse me for ever doubting! The CAM team was quite funny, Ellie’s advise was even funny (I think her discription of a “real Bartowski” applies to her and her alone; seriously, their parents both ran off and Chuck has always struggled with being too easily discouraged, Ellie is the only really “tough” one of the bunch). I was pleased Sarah did clearly choose Chuck, and not at all surprised that Chuck doesn’t know it.

      But it does leave us with some unpleasent realizations about Sarah’s character. She seriously has a double standard for Chuck; it doesn’t bother me that she’s herself differently, but how she can twist her rejection of Chuck into an acceptance of Shaw I will never buy.

      I will make one prediction from the preview; we all spent much time wondering at the “Sarah will shed a tear for Shaw” spoiler we had seen; I’m betting its because she’s the one who has to shoot him. I will even go a step further and say I don’t believe Chuck will kill anyone next week; he may help Shaw destroy a big part of the Ring (but not entirely, we know they are still an issue for 3.19). I think Sarah will have to shoot Shaw to save Chuck; not sure of the details, but that sure would be one way to make a choice permanent.

      • josh says:

        My girlfriend actually offered this opinion on the whole double standard thing which kinda sorta makes sense.

        She basically said it’s normal, you always expect more from the people you love.

      • atcdave says:

        I get that, I just wish they would make it clear; Sarah holds Chuck to a higher standard on purpose. My wife just today was praising me for not doing something a friend of ours does; its no big deal in a friend, but it would bother her in me. But the way they’ve done it so far, just makes her look like a flake. (um… Sarah not my wife!)

      • JC says:

        I’m still thinking Chuck will shoot Shaw. I don’t think he plans to kill Sarah but he plans to kill Chuck. Make her feel his pain.
        She probably hesitates at some point and Shaw gets the drop on her. Chuck shoots him to save her. Or something along those lines.
        I wouldn’t be surprised if happens where Sarah’s Red Test was.

      • DaveB says:

        I think we may see Sarah give up using a gun. Kind of a return to Eden thing, where she, after using weapons, views it with distaste and loathing and decides to become more like Chuck.

      • JLR says:

        ^^ I hope not, or one (or both of them) will wind up dead.

      • Crumby says:

        About the double standard-

        She said it herself during the stakate last week “It’s different”.

        She has feelings for Shaw (for whatever reasons!) but is not the one.

        She has been scared all season that the Chuck she fell for was gone. Him being abble to kill emphasize that fear. She let it go though. I think she chose before Casey told her.

        But I guess will never really know. It’s like in Broken Heart. If Chuck hadn’t thank her the way he did would she had run away?

      • Fake Empire says:

        I’m thinking that Chuck finally pulls the trigger next week in order to save Sarah, which is why she cries. But, hey, I thought her impassioned scream in the Ring promo last year was for Chuck, and it ended up being for Bryce . . . so clearly, I’m not psychic.

      • Waverly says:

        I think it’s a lot more likely that Sarah is the one who shoots Shaw. That’s why she’s so unhappy at the end of the preview.

      • Jason says:

        also possible chuck got shot in the groin, next source of CS angst – LOL – but it is possible chuck gets shot, sarah shoots to save him, might even lead to a CS conversation (maybe with casey), chuck, there are times you have to shoot in our business, the hard thing for me, is how sarah becomes interested in being a spy again, she is SOOOOOOOO wanting out right now, I would only imagine worse after 3.13 & the whole shaw, eve issue?

      • Crumby says:

        atcdave – “I think her discription of a “real Bartowski” applies to her and her alone” –> That’s exactly what I thought when she said it lol

    • Joe! everything I’ve predicted to you last week about what going to happen in ep.12 came true

      ep.13 all h*** is going to break loose.I’ve always thought Shaw was a double agent along with his wife and he’s always knew that Sarah that killed his wife.Sarah and Chuck been manipulated the whole time by Shaw.

      the spoilers was wrong about ep.13 on chucktv.net Sarah’s life is in very extreme danger now.

      Chuck mission is to save Sarah Walker from the Ring and from psycho Shaw.

  10. AngelTwo says:

    Some good moments, some not. Certainly not worth the pain and garbage of the season. But I’ll give it the highest compliment I can this year: I want to rewatch it again to decide. This would be the first I watched again from Season 3.

    Most importantly, though, can I nail some hypocricy? All season Alan Sepinwall has been telling us how great the season has been. NOW in his (mostly positive) review for American Hero, he tells us all about his doubts. And, guess what, his doubts are the same as ours have been.

    Insanely insulting, frankly. Read it here:
    http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2010/03/chuck-chuck-vs-american-hero-love-is.html

    • atcdave says:

      I do agree Angeltwo, first episode in a while (actually, Angel of Death and Operation Awesome scored for me too; so it isn’t the ONLY) I wanted to rewatch right away.

    • Mike B says:

      Well all I can say is welcome to the party. Better late then never.

    • JLR says:

      I saw the same AngelTwo.

      I enjoyed the episode. Still, it’s my opinion after watching once, that Sarah’s choice wasn’t clear until Casey’s confession.

      • dungeonmasterlevel4 says:

        She does have one of those ridiculously awesomely-photoshopped pictures of her and Chuck on her nightstand in the beginning of the scene, as she’s packing. I’m a glass-overflowing optimist by nature, but that can’t have been a mistake, right? Then again, it could have been…Nope, it wasn’t 🙂

      • JLR says:

        And I won’t argue the point w/ anyone choosing to believe she “chose” (that whole premise still bothers me, tbh) Chuck prior to Casey’s visit.

      • joe says:

        Hi, DML4. Good to see another optimist here.

        I missed the photoshopped picture! Good catch. I’m going to have to rewatch to see if I think Sarah decided to go with Chuck before Casey came in, but my initial reaction was yes, she did. I took the smile to be a vindication, then, of her decision, and not a revelation that she had just then decided.

      • JC says:

        I’ve bashed Sarah pretty much every episode since Fake Name and even I think she was going with Chuck before Casey showed up.

        But let me add, Chuck is far more forgiving than me.

      • dungeonmasterlevel4 says:

        Yeah, that’s what I took it as too. She seemed more happy that she was making the right choice, rather than happy that she had an excuse to change her mind. And ya gotta love happy people, right?

      • HenryH says:

        You know, I have never seen Big Love and I don’t pay much attention to TV these days. But even I have heard of this Chloe Sevigny truth thing where she said her show’s third season was awful. My guess is one day we’ll hear Yvonne Strahovski say she was happy to finally be allowed to play some emotions, but that even SHE didn’t have a clue what the Sarah character was about this year…

      • herder says:

        Terrific catch on the picture DML4, and I think that it is clear that she was packing to run with Chuck, Casey’s confession was just the icing on the cake for her. She said that Casey pleading his case wasn’t necessary, if she had decided against Chuck then it would have been irrelevant, if she had decided for him then it was unecessary.

      • josh says:

        Well they didn’t make it abundantly clear she had chosen Chuck. But, when Casey started talking she did say If you came to plead his case then it’s really not necessary which suggests she had already made up her mind to go with Chuck. Obviously it’s not an anvil type suggestion, but meh, it’s enough for me.

      • JC says:

        I also think her smile was Chuck protecting Casey. He asked for one lie and it was to protect someone else. Chuck wouldn’t betray Casey even if it cost him everything.

      • JLR says:

        After re-watching the ending of the episode, I think I’m on board w/ the idea Sarah was packing to go w/ Chuck prior to Casey’s arrival. BTW, I DID catch her comment to Casey about it not being necessary for him to present a case for Chuck. As I watched it the first time though, my immediate thought her delivery was more in the lines of being dismissive; like saying, “don’t bother.” I guess I am just so cynical about the whole C/S plot that I half expected TPTB to leave some shadow of doubt as a kind of final groin kick to shippers. In the end, I’m just glad it’s over so we can focus on other things. I’m tired of arguing about it.

    • weaselone says:

      I have to admit that Sepinwall’s review reinforces my degree of disgust with the reviewers this year and sort of dulls those I have towards the show runners. The reviewers received previews and episodes far enough in advance that a uniformly negative reaction could have led to changes in the later episodes, but all JS and CF were treated to was an echo chamber of kudos and positive reviews. It’s no wonder they disregarded the opinions of portions of the fan base, particularly as reviewers who had the same opinion as a portion of the fan base joined in labeling this group as crazy shippers.

      • JC says:

        And that interview he had with JS and CF after the Mask. All the complaints people had then, he blew off as C/S aren’t together. Strange he’s having them now.

      • Big Kev says:

        Yeah….pretty ordinary peformance from someone who is paid to be insightful and objective about TV. I remember when the Schwartz/Fedak interview came out after the Mask, I wasn’t that upset with what they said (showrunners will give you the party line, after all, especially mid-season) but I was annoyed that they were given a free pass by Sepinwall, who completely misrepresented the objections that people had.
        Tonight’s episode? Excellent. Fun. Dramatic. Romantic. Laugh out loud funny. Heartwarming. All the things you expect a Chuck episode to be. Fake Name was the low point of the season for me, but the four episodes since, back to back, have equalled the back half of Season 2, for me.

      • JC says:

        If I’m not mistaken he was a driving force behind getting a third season of Chuck. He shouldn’t have done the interview at all.

        Honestly if the back six are like Tic Tac and Final Exam minus the angst crap, I will be so angry if we don’t get season four.

      • JLR says:

        ^^ I hope we get that too JC. I sincerely think we are at the series ending stretch run. There are a lot of factors in the (IMO) likely non-renewal for S4, but angst-driven plot likely did not help matters any. It’s a shame, b/c I agree that the last several episodes, barring some gratuitously angsty endings, have reminded me why I fell in love w/ this show.

      • JC says:

        I’m really hoping the ratings bounce back. Since 24 got canceled and NBC is in such bad shape it wouldn’t take much.

        But if it doesn’t just give me a TV movie or two. Just to tie up whatever happens at the end of the back six.

        And you know I agree about the angst driven plots.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I hope this doesn’t come off as me being conceited or too full of myself, but reading Sepinwall’s review it seemed he’d come around to what I was writing about some three weeks ago as the sources of my dissatisfaction with this season. But had I posted my opinions other than here I would likely have been shouted down or dismissed as a crazy shipper.

        By the time the first 5 pre-releases were out in mid December I believe everything but 3.13 had been filmed, so I won’t blame TPTB for not adapting to fan reaction to what we’ve seen so far before now or for sticking to the party line in the interview, but the critics are something else. I get that they want to maintain some sort of relationship so they don’t want to bash, but to me it seems only Mo Ryan was completely honest with her fans with the second pre-release. I think the thing is you don’t do TPTB any favors by silently accepting just because it can’t be changed. And I completely don’t get this attitude among some fans that we who criticize are somehow responsible for the show’s decline when all we are doing is pointing to reasons for the decline.

        Last night’s episode left me with a foul taste after Sarah’s hypocrisy and Chuck’s refusal to read her the riot act for it. After a start that had me practically giddy that they were finally recognizing and going back to the show’s strengths they went to the worst aspect of this season’s overburdened and drawn out angst, the assassination of Sarah Walker as a believable or remotely sympathetic character for the sake of one more bit of completely played out and unnecessary relationship angst. On the first viewing the episode never quite recovered from that for me. I also didn’t appreciate that they made Shaw into the self sacrificing hero. Sorry, but intentional or not it diminishes Chuck and once again pushes Shaw into the role of leading man, and I watch the show despite Shaw, not because of him. I owe a second viewing, at least, but I’m really not looking forward to it.

      • JLR says:

        Follow your own advice from a couple of months ago Ernie & forget certain things. That’s what I’m trying to do. Since I’m pretty certain the show isn’t going to get renewed, I actually want to watch the back 6 & see how many loose ends TPTB leave dangling; call it a morbid sense of curiosity. That, and I’m just flat glad the C/S angst appears pretty much over. The reunion was not even close to “epic” IMO. All of the questions about Sarah will get swept under the rug, I think. Frankly, I don’t think TPTB (or many fans that support them) even see that there is a “Sarah problem.”

      • Fake Empire says:

        Ernie, silence often becomes passive permission, as I’m sure you know, and I agree with you that the critics’ silence was harmful here.

      • Jason says:

        I wondered way back around 3.7 if some of this season was to knock down the larger than life comic book hero aspect of sarah walker, allowing chuck to clearly be the ‘star’ with 2 main supporting players (sarah and casey), rather than a pair of co-stars (sarah and chuck) – seems to be the case for sure as of 3.12. I wonder where they are going to take sam/sarah = samarah? in 3.13 thru 3.19, back to hero, or continued to be damsel in distress?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I can forget a lot, and forgive a lot, and I have. And I sort of get what they were trying to show, that despite the fact that Sarah is completely aware she put Chuck in a no-win situation in a way that only his feelings for her could do, she wanted him to prove her fears wrong, and she thinks he’s let her down yet again. I get that, but to still be diminishing these characters in the ways they are this late in the season, after all I’ve put up with is just not working for me. I may modify my opinion on re-watching, but I’m sorry to say my first overall impression was disappointment.

      • JLR says:

        Oh, I don’t disagree w/ any of that Ernie…I’m just trying my damnedest to keep watching. Some of us just might have to accept that Sarah will never again seem “quite right” to us.

      • weaselone says:

        Ernie, I didn’t see Shaw’s sacrifice as heroic. It ultimately stemmed from his desire for revenge, not out of a duty to serve king and country.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Like I said, I’m still on first impressions, but my first reaction was disgust, and then everyone calling him the Great American hero was salt and lemon in the wound. So much of this episode was so good and I really wanted to love it, but at this point, with all the fatigue it seems only the negatives are sticking anymore. The cumulative knees to the groin are overwhelming the hugs if you’ll pardon a weird metaphor.

      • John says:

        Wait the reviewers have been telling us how great everything was all year and only now that we got an episode that the fans really enjoyed they are slamming it? Typical.

        Um…sorry guys having Shaw kidnap Sarah was not the same as keeping them apart. They are together now. The torches have been put away and now we just have a good old spy plot coming on involving crazy man Shaw and the Ring director guy. Maybe they might tell us finally what the Ring is actually all about. Now that is a big annoyance this season.

        But to start complaining about keeping the couple apart now that that is resolved? Too little too late Sepinwall.

      • atcdave says:

        Some interesting comments Ernie. I agree entirely with your take on the critics. But I was a little more up on the episode itself, and have already rewatched it once. In the end, Sarah’s choice was OK. Not epic or completely redeeming mind you (of course it may not have completely played out yet either; Chuck doesn’t even know her choice). I was glad she chose Chuck before knowing he didn’t kill Perry, and while Shaw is still a self sacrificing hero (or suicidal nut-job). She made the choice apparently based on history, and deciding to trust Chuck when she had little reason to.

        I don’t like the double standard she has held Chuck to. As I said elsewhere, I can live with Sarah having slightly different expectations of Chuck than of herself (she knows when she’s done right or wrong, and the wrong seems to sicken her; but she seems to think Chuck will lie or kill just to impress her, as if his sense of right and wrong has been deleted); but her turning to the man who pushed Chuck into impossible situations and told him to do terrible things makes me furious. How can she not see Shaw is a psychotic head case? And yet she chooses him over Chuck for most of the season. To me, that is the downfall of Sarah Walker. I feel much better about things today, because she finally made the right choice. I only hope, in 3.13 she will realize how good a choice she made.

    • Merve says:

      I don’t think that he’s being a hypocrite. He’s always said that he wasn’t too fond of the WT/WT situation. He also never said that any of the complaints that he addressed in his review of “American Hero” were invalid prior to now. I’d give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was just waiting until the end of the arc to pass judgement on some aspects of the show that he might not have otherwise enjoyed very much.

  11. josh says:

    I can’t complain, I pretty much expected it to resolve itself this episode,it did. I pretty much expected not to be blown away by the resolution, I wasn’t. Overall it was a fun episode, a few nagging details here and there but I ‘d take this over most of the rest of the season’s episodes any day.

    What bugged me mildly was that pretty much every character knew Chuck was trying to win Sarah back. It rung a bit weird to have it referenced by everybody. And those successive American Hero references. I know both were comedic things, they just didn’t really work for me but … nothing major.

    Is it me or was Shaw’s weird look at the end completely B movie Bad Guy stuff? Guy’s gotta work on facial expressions, seriously, especially when he’s acting next to Yvonne who’s like the master of speaking through facial expressions it looks … silly.

  12. sd says:

    I have to say…maybe cause I’m a girl…the stalking scene in the promo just seemed gross to me…but in the context of the show…it was funny and sorta sweet…and goofy.

    So there–lesson learned–don’t make judgements based on promos…which leads me to my question…is Chuck losing viewers based on these “baseless” promos…or, at the very least, promos that don’t give people a reason to invest in the hour?

    To parapharase what Bueller’s teacher would say…anyone….anyone???

    • Faith says:

      you’re a girl?! Sorry didn’t know. yay for women in this blog! We’re few and far between lol.

    • DaveB says:

      Well, I know the CityTV preview was truly creepy, and I wondered if it was a completely different show than the preview on NBC. I noticed that they also changed the preview, so apparently someone else thought it was creepy, too.

    • amyabn says:

      I didn’t mind the guys using the van, etc, but I think they have gone way over the top with the stalker business with Jeff and Lester. They prided themselves on their spy skills in Best Friend, but instead of them thinking they are amateur spies (and Chuck knows nothing about that 😉 ), they have descended into stalking which is creepy. The blood, urine, stool sample offer was gross.

  13. Fake Empire says:

    Wow – I am grateful for a decent episode! I enjoyed the laughs, but what I was impressed with the most was Chuck’s confidence, assertiveness, and bravery. A lot of growth, as he alluded to himself when crashing Sarah’s date. Hooray for Casey in taking the risk at further trouble for himself in telling Sarah the truth! The end scenes of Shaw driving off with Sarah reminded me of the end of The Fat Lady.

    • atcdave says:

      Great catch on the parallel. Also the use of another train station scene. We know in 3.14 they’ll finally get on the train together.

    • JLR says:

      I agree…Chuck is now finally a man in my eyes. His growth this season, along w/ Casey & Morgan, have been the saving grace of the season for me. I still miss Sarah Walker, however. Her motivations need to be more fully explained, not that people here & on other blogs/forums haven’t tried to rationalize her actions to death. While appreciated, the fan analyzing isn’t canon as far as I’m concerned. It’s merely opinion; informed opinion, but opinion nonetheless.

      • Jason says:

        cole would have been proud of chuck this episode, the very in depth sarah analysis is strictly fan fic writing, good and logical fan fic writing, but fan fic writing none the less, the show runners have made a point to say sarah has a connection to shaw based on spy experiences etc – we might not see it on screen or like it, but there is no reason to not accept it, they both (sarah and shaw) are burnt out spies

      • Fake Empire says:

        JLR and Jason: wouldn’t you agree that Chuck was the real “American Hero” here? Looks like that trend will continue next week!

      • JLR says:

        Even at his clumsiest, Chuck has always been a hero in my eyes. He’s finally getting credit for it. I do agree w/ the sentiment that it’s nice to look forward to the next episode for once. I still have problems w/ how some things were handled this episode, but I’m just gonna let it go, I think.

      • JC says:

        I think we’re just supposed to ignore all the terrible things Shaw has done before this episode.

  14. HenryH says:

    Uh, folks, this episode is a mess. Admittedly, a relatively HAPPY mess. But a mess.

    1) How did Casey get into Castle?
    2) I could have sworn Chuck kissing Sarah in Castle was going to end with “That, uh, wasn’t the kiss I was expecting.” I mean, we’ve waited three years for this moment and the chemistry was, eh…
    3) Nice of Beckman to have Chuck drive crosstown before telling him Sarah is in danger. If nothing else, you would have thought she’d have see the remake of The Italian Job.
    4) The character of Sarah is destroyed. I mean, mentally. If anyone thinks the next few episodes are going to be happy, forget it. This woman needs help. Seriously. It makes me feel awful becasue I always rooted for Sarah. I mean, Sarah more than Chuck.
    5) Why is Casey still at BuyMore? The man would be an insanely great mercenary. Even for plot purposes, his continued presence at BuyMore is unsupportable.
    6) Why is a Stealth bomber cruising at, say, 500 feet? And Sarah is maybe 1000 feet away and there’s no blowback? Chuck and Shaw are even closer and no problem, either?
    7) The Ring doesn’t scare me.
    8) How many times are they going to have superspy hunk tell Chuck “Take care of her.” Can’t this poor guy just win the girl for once.

    On the other hand, Chuck really manned up in the restaurant. And Sarah WAS going to cut him the break on the Red Test. So full marks to TPTB for that. It was VERY well handled and Shaw’s single line after crashing on the table deftly avoided the icky parts we feared.

    Like AngelTwo, I’ll rewatch this episode. But I will say this now: I want this show to end at 3.19. Season four would be a mess. Time for the show to get to a happy place and head for Valhalla.

    And don’t get me started on Sarah killing Shaw’s wife? I mean, it’s beyond cheesy.

    • JLR says:

      I specifically address point 2, because it’s an issue I raised several weeks ago: would the pre-Prague apocalypse C/S chemistry remain after the “reunion”? I had the same reaction…I was glad to see it happen, but it didn’t move me. That’s all I’ll say. Over & done with. I now get to start my personal re-set WRT to the show. How much am I willing to forget?

    • Jason says:

      i was saying stuff all season like zach and yvonne just have chemistry & will turn it on when allowed to, but I am beginning to wonder too, sarah still appears to have been given a full lobotomy for near the entire season 3, including the entire episode 12, the castle kiss did nothing more for me than the sarah shaw kiss, maybe less, and why did sarah go with shaw at the end, plus again, how did sarah react when chuck shaw came out of the building, should have been the highlight of the entire season, did not even show it???

    • JC says:

      Gotta love when Chuck said ” He’d would have done the same for me” Ummm nope

      • JC says:

        Forgot to add Sarah’s answer “yes” really did you forget what happened just a few weeks ago.

    • weaselone says:

      1) Maybe Sarah also transmitted new access codes?
      2) I think that was the point. This kiss was lacking because the writers, directors and producers still wanted us to be uncertain of Sarah’s final choice.
      3)*shrugs* We can only guess at the actual timing of events here. Beckman may have called as soon as she got the analysis and chewed some analyst butt for being slow.
      4)Agreed. I hope they don’t completely drop this and sweep it under the rug.
      5)Casey doesn’t want to be a merc. Her serves his country, no his pocket book.
      6)The B-2 scene was idiotic. It’s a long range bomber, not a fighter-bomber or WW2 dive bomber. The bomb would have been dropped from altitude, particularly as it is a bunker buster. As to the blow back, that’s questionable. One would have expected the bomb to have penetrated into the sublevels before detonating. That would have channeled the force of the explosion upward.
      7)Yeah. Me either. Part of me thinks that has to do with budget cuts. On the flip side, that just means the writers need to be more creative and show the danger they pose through better, tighter story telling and not massive explosions and legions of goons.

  15. Ernie Davis says:

    The big things,as far as I’m concerned.
    1) They didn’t ignore the fish out of water comedy of Chuck in DC. Hope springs eternal.
    2) Chuck is “SPECIAL” agent Bartowski. Shaw’s equal.
    3) Beckman, tough as she is, understands Chuck.

    • JLR says:

      Yep, my cynicism…for once…wasn’t warranted. They did what you predicted WRT Chuck’s D.C. visit.

    • herder says:

      That and when Sarah is in trouble she turns to Chuck, not one of the stable of agents she has at her disposal. I really prefer Beckman, who can scare the team to Shaw who simply messes it up.

      One thing that Sepinwall mentioned in his review was that this is the second time that we have had a scene with a flash bang grenade that is filmed in a kind of psycodelic way. His criticism was that this was a bit cheesy, what I am thinking is that these flashes may be having an effect on the intersect in Chuck’s head. A concussion can mess up a normal brain, how would a slightly scrambled intersect react. Cue, Papa B and neurologist Ellie?

      • weaselone says:

        I think it’s just a video game homage. It’s not meant to be perfectly accurate.

      • sd says:

        I love the look Chuck and the bad guy gave each other when the flash bang grenade pin was released….a shared “oh, great, this is going to hurt”. It was a nice moment

      • amyabn says:

        I thought the same thing about the flash-bang. I think Chuck’s exposure will end up messing up the intersect. Hopefully, should that be the case, they play it for comedy!

  16. Gabbo says:

    I sort of got quoted here immediately on arrival over the weekend for pointing out that Sarah would let Shaw go and be worried about Chuck, thus validating her comments at the end of Episode 4.

    Well, I guess not.

    She was packing her guns to follow Shaw when Chuck arrived and we have NO idea of her reaction after seeing Chuck and Shaw emerge. And someone is going to have to explain to me her initial decision at the end of the episode to go to Washington and be (one assumes) with Shaw.

    And all of this after it looked like Chuck had gotten through to her at the restaurant.

    Lord, do I hate this season…

    • Gabbo says:

      BTW, I guess Sarah saying she didn’t trust Chuck early in the episode was meant to be a call back to her “I trust you” line from the zip line in Pink Slip.

      So glad we have a happy ending, eh?

    • JLR says:

      Go visit some other forums like ChuckTV, I’m guessing the groupthink there will overcome any concerns you might have with how the C/S resolution was handled.

      • JLR says:

        Oh, and I want to be clear. I’m not being critical of you. Quite the opposite actually. I’m merely glad to be seeing this part of the plot coming to an end. None of it was entertaining to me. They could’ve just flash forwarded to C/S being married & I still think I’d be more relieved the PLI angst was over than having any other feeling.

      • atcdave says:

        I do agree JLR. A good resolution is better, but given how dreadful this season has been, I’ll settle for any resolution. What we got was solidly OK. Another obvious construction so Chuck isn’t quite sure yet of Sarah’s choice. But we know he’ll find out next week. (of course, probably only at the very end).

      • Mischievous says:

        Just wanted to add, as someone who posts on both boards, was the “groupthink” jab necessary? Looking around here one could say the same thing concerning the opposite opinion that the season has been a wreck save a few decent scenes.

      • JLR says:

        ^^ Yeah, admittedly, that was an intemperate remark. I apologize if I offended. Guess the snide comments directed at S3 dissenters has worn thin for me. In any event, I’m just glad the C/S melodrama looks to be nearing an end, so the major flashpoint amongst fans can hopefully die an overdue death. I’m as tired of whining/complaining about it as I am seeing the holier than thou reactions to complaints. I’d rather the show focus on other things; hopefully we’ll get that going forward.

    • Mischievous says:

      Strange, I got a completely different read of what happened. It was pretty clear that she was proud of Chuck for saving Shaw’s life and happy he was still alive. Though I’m sure she was happy Shaw wasn’t dead either but hey that’s just human decency.

      As for her following Shaw first at the end? No, not right at all. Watch it again, the framed picture of Chuck and Sarah from seasons passed was up on her nightstand. Why in the world would she have that up if she was over Chuck and going to DC? Casey telling her about the red test just erased any doubt in her mind that she was making the right decision. Point number dos, as far as she knew shaw was laid up in the hospital recovering. If she was going with him you’d think she would be by his side instead of packing her bags.

      As for her not trusting him, that’s a result of what happened in Prague. She broke her heart remember? If you’d be able to fully trust the person who did that to you when they ask for a second chance, well you are far more forgiving than I.

      • Mischievous says:

        er that last SHE should be HE XD man we need an edit button.

      • sd says:

        Also…remember her last act in the room was to throw the gun on the bed…to me (having not seen the pix of C/S on the nightstand) was her wordless decision to be with Chuck

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        Mischievous-
        I was actually referring to BEFORE the packing scene in her apartment. When Chuck confesses his love at Castle and tells her that have to be together, she says she can’t because she made a commitment.

        THAT makes no sense in light of what she was going accept from Chuck in the restaurant and the rescue scene. That she is still going to Washington until Chuck demands she doesn’t is weird to me…

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        Sorry, I meant Gabbo was referring to the Castle scene. I agree with him/her. It was odd…

      • JLR says:

        I’m probably being dense here, I’m not understanding the huge significance of the picture. Hasn’t that pic been in her room going back to S2?

      • Crumby says:

        Yes and after all that have happened she still has that picture.

      • JLR says:

        I^^ I get that, but some people are citing it as specific “proof” her decision was to go w/ Chuck…prior to Casey’s visit. If that pic has always been there, I just don’t see how it supports that contention. Yeah…I’m nitpicking. It really doesn’t matter.

      • Jason says:

        jrl – if nothing else, probably shaw is not a regular bed guest at sarah’s, unless he sleeps on the left hand side?

      • JLR says:

        ^^^ True…besides, they were kicking it in Castle… I’m convinced Shaw’s a freak that way.

      • josh says:

        There’s no epic significance in the picture, aside from the fact they told us Sarah has kept a picture of a fake boyfriend almost a year after the fake relationship has ended.

      • Paul says:

        I just found it funny how Sarah keeps and displays the fake pics of Chuck and her, yet has no real ones. You see the one from Sandworm on her desk in the final scene in Cougars. It’d be kinda funny if Sarah had the fake wedding photos out…. 😉

      • Chuck604 says:

        I think it’s was pretty clear Sarah was going to run off with Chuck when Casey appeared to tell her the truth about Chuck’s red test; and she told him that pleading for Chuck’s case was unnecessary. I think her intentions couldn’t have been any clearer.

      • Big Kev says:

        BCB….re your comment about Sarah’s initial refusal of Chuck, saying “I’ve made a commitment” – my thought was that it was Chuck’s revelation that he wanted to spend his life with Sarah “away from the spy life” that swung it. That is what Sarah has consistently said she wanted, after all. A “normal” life with a “normal” guy. She has never contemplated her and Chuck as a spy couple – ever. That’s why Chuck’s decision to reintersect at the end of Season 2 was a dealbreaker for her.
        I think the back six will address the difficulties that Sarah has about continuing life as a spy – but this time, they will address those difficulties together.

      • Crumby says:

        About Sarah “I made a commitment” comment.

        I think she may be saying “OK Chuck I hear you, you want us to be together. But I wasn’t just going to Washington to be with Shaw, I have a job there (maybe an important one, who knows what Beckman offered her). So I can’t just stay with you like that.” I mean she don’t get to choose her assignment.

        It could have just been a “technical” comment on how they could be together.

        But it’s just interpretation… As always we have no clue what she’s thinking… lol

      • atcdave says:

        They left a lot hanging that will have to be addressed in some capacity; like, how are they going to end up back in Burbank with Chuck still working at the Buy More? Will Chuck’s “team” end up just as him, Sarah, and Casey again? and of course, what peace will Sarah make with the idea of remaining a spy and being involved with Chuck? I expect most of this to be answered between 3.13 and 3.14.

      • Crumby says:

        atcdave-

        I originally posted in the speculation about American Hero thread, this :

        “Assuming that C/S will FINALLY end up together, there is a lot of question that I’d like to see address. They probably won’t be. But I’m kind of curious about it. So I thought about make sort of a list of those things and see how many will be answered. So here’s a few questions I have. I’m sure you guys will have plenty of questions too.

        1) Does Sarah want to quit the CIA? What happenned after Prague? We assumed (I assumed anyway) that she didn’t run away because the life she wanted was with Chuck and didn’t make sense without him. What about now? Does she wanna be with Chuck while they’re both spies? Or does she want them to get out of this eventually?

        2) How long does Chuck wanna be a spy? He said he couldn’t walk away from helping people considering what he had in his head. But what’s gonna happen when the Intersect will be rebuilt (if it is rebuilt)? Does Chuck want it out eventually? If yes what does he wanna do next? Being an analyst? Working with computers and be the real version of his Carmichael cover? And what would that mean for Sarah? Would he want her out to?

        3) And well then there’s Shaw. He’s Chuck eventually gonna confront Sarah about Shaw being able to have some answers out of her when Chuck has always failed?”

        Even though the episode did talk about 1) and 2), we still don’t have much answers. It’s all source of interpretation. We’ve seen a lot of discussions about it here.
        But yes I think 313 and 314 will give us some answers.

        Regarding 3), I don’t know…

      • atcdave says:

        Later today, I expect to post new speculation thread. It just seems like we need one.

  17. JLR says:

    Oh, and maybe someone has noted this & I merely missed it, but what do you think could be the significance of Chuck’s acknowledgment after shooting the first guy w/ a tranq dart that “Hmmm, didn’t even need to flash”?

    • Fake Empire says:

      Yeah, I caught that too. His innate skills as a spy are growing, and while I like the Intersect, it would be nice to see his reliance on it become less and less. BTW, another thing that got my attention was the score that was playing while Chuck carried Shaw; it seems to me that was the piece of music they typically played for Bryce. I could be misinterpreting, but it feels like yet another piece of confirmation that Chuck is that “real hero.”

    • Chuckaddict says:

      I don’t ever remember Chuck flashing in order to use a gun. It was alluded that he flashed when playing Duck Hunt with Morgan, but never at any other time. He always flashes to use Kung-Fu, so I’m not sure what it really meant.

      • JLR says:

        Well, Chuck doesn’t handle guns often, and he clearly flashed before capping Manoush w/ the tranq gun at WeaponCon. He also flashed in Op Awesome when he took down multiple guys in the hallway.

      • Chuckaddict says:

        You’re right.

  18. Chris says:

    Glad to have a fun episode that did not have such a downer ending for a change.

    One of the best lines for me is when Morgan says something like “Shaw is as stiff as a board” in the stalker van. Too funny!

    I have to say that the Sarah/Shaw kiss seemed more passionate than the Chuck/Sarah kiss to me. Epic payoff??? I hope we will see better in the next few episodes.

    After all that deep psychology fans got into to try and analyze Sarah and that she hated herself for what she thinks Chuck has become. I did not see any sign of guilt or regret in that scene with her and Chuck at Castle discussing his red test, but I could have missed something. She came off pretty bad in that scene to me, but I thought that whole I can’t love you because you killed a bad guy was silly anyway. Seems flakey is still a better description IMO. I hope they can get her character in a good place again now. I am tired of not liking Sarah Walker.

    I was of the opinion that Sarah did choose Chuck before Casey showed up.

    There were plot holes to be sure, but when it is fun I can forgive a lot. I enjoyed the episode, and I am happy the Shaw love interest angle has FINALLY come to an end.

    • atcdave says:

      I agree with all of this Chris. I loved Morgan’s line about Shaw in van. That was even filmed before any of the Shaw episodes ran, so it apparently wasn’t lost on TPTB how he came across. Sarah does seem somehow dellusional about the standard she is holding Chuck to, not sure if we’ll ever get satisfaction in that regard; perhaps if he later kills to save her life, ideally that would be an opportunity for a good moment between them; but the way things have been going, its more likely to trigger a new round of s-angst. I hope we can get back to liking Sarah again too, I would add, I think the show desperately needs that.

      Yeah, there were a lot of plot holes, but they are so much easier to live with when the show is fun.

  19. BeCoolBoy says:

    Okay, I know I’m weird, but my favorite moment in the show is when Casey arrived at Sarah’s apartment–and she offers him a drink.

    “Oh, John, good to see you. I’m packing to run away forever with Chuck (I think). But would you like a Scotch?”

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      As for what I don’t like: Sarah. Poor Sarah. How this show has gone from woman-on-top (h/t lizjames) as the protector to basket-case Sarah is beyond me.

      I mean, all the kings horses and all the kings men. I don’t think they can put Sarah Walker together again…

  20. Merve says:

    Wow. That was awesome. It was cheesy, campy, and full of plot holes, but I don’t care. I’m not going to make any attempts to validate or rationalize my love for this episode, but I will say that it was easily the best of the season, and one of my favourite episodes of the entire series.

    I hope to see a few more explosions next week. 🙂

    • atcdave says:

      Wow Merve, its awesome we can be in such happy agreement on this!

      Of course, I’m sure you all can guess the plot hole that drives me nuts; that stupid B-2 was easily 50% underscale. What were they thinking? I mean, the B-2 is a honking big airplane! Its wingspan is only like 10 feet less than a B-52! Maybe it was just a perspective problem. Don’t get me started on the ordnance.

      • Merve says:

        Wow, Dave, we agreed on something! 😛 In all seriousness, and I think I’ve said this before, but I think that we agree far more than would appear; we just place different emphases on different aspects of the show.

        For me, the two biggest plot holes were:
        1) Shouldn’t Beckman have been aware that the nurse was killed? (I suppose that could be easily fanwanked away by assuming that she did know but just didn’t want to tell Team Bartowski all the details.)
        2) How the heck did Casey get into Castle?

      • atcdave says:

        Yeah Casey getting into Castle was a big one.
        I know I’ve been pretty single issue driven most of this season, the thing that’s funny to me (about me? dang, just a little egotistical here!) is how much easier it is for me to enjoy all other elements of the show when Chuck and Sarah seem to be heading in the right direction. I was laughing harder at Jeff and Lester than I have for a while, I loved Awesome tackling the wrong guy again; I just generally had a good time. I think on some earlier episodes (Mask) I enjoyed parts of the episode early on, but was so annoyed by the ending it just negated everything, and turned me off completely.

      • amyabn says:

        Morgan has gotten into Castle without codes, right? I’m not sure why Sarah didn’t have her cell phone and just called Casey, but hey, he is still an unofficial member of Team Bartowski, so I can overlook it!

      • Merve says:

        Morgan sneaked in behind the Ring agents. I suppose you could fanwank it by saying that Casey used the same technique that the Ring agents used in order to break into Castle.

  21. Fake Empire says:

    Ok guys, what’s the early over/under on the WTWT ending next week? If you focus closely, you can catch a nanosecond of a clip in the promo of Chuck moving in on Sarah for a kiss while they’re on what appears to be a bed. The room looks unfamiliar – not Chuck’s or Sarah’s. Looked interesting . . .

    • atcdave says:

      I think they know its run its course (OK, it had run its course by 2.21; but better late than never!). I say 80% we know by the end of next week they mean to be together for the long haul. What that means specifically is harder to guess. My money is on a proposal for 3.19, I’m not sure what they’ll do in 3.13.

      • JC says:

        I’m going to call it now, Chuck will still have some doubts next episode. Just the way they set up the ending, with Beckman saying Sarah was with Shaw. Whatever doubts Chuck has Sarah will actually say something to him.

        3.13 ends with them running.

      • Fake Empire says:

        Yeah, Dave, I agree with the proposal in 3.19. It’s good there’s a “shocking death” lined up to add to the joyous moment! 😉

        I’m with you on the 80% certainty regarding their togetherness, except mine was more like 80.362%.

      • atcdave says:

        So we’re within a statistical margin of error on total agreement! The shocking death does concern me some, I’m thinking probably Orion. It would be a bummer but not ruin the show.

      • Fake Empire says:

        Funny – I’ve been thinking the same thing too: Orion.

    • Mike B says:

      Don’t forget we still have the “Sarah DYLM” line coming up, so there must still be an angst hangover some where.

      • John says:

        I was told that line is shown out of context and it really supposed to be a ‘do you trust me’ moment.

    • sd says:

      If you go frame by frame…It appears to be Sarah and Shaw on the bed…not Chuck

  22. Faith says:

    I typed this for you guys but I copied and pasted it over at the NBC boards. Anyways, apologies in advance for length.

    I. Love. You. There are no other words. There is no other superlative expression of emotion in the whole universe. I love you. And I’m not taking no for an answer. Way to go Charles Irving Bartowski.

    There are times when the brilliance of this team just amazes me. Just amazing. We have now gone full circle…the journey has been hard and bumpy, we have taken some unnecessary turns if I may say so…but boy this feels good. It feels good because I get it. It feels good because they got it. Chuck loves Sarah. That’s it. They belong together, they’ve had misunderstandings, they’ve had challenges but in the end love prevails. Love triumphs. What Sarah felt and feels for Chuck overcame even her doubts, even her fears. Because SHE LOVES HIM. She’s leaving Burbank, leaving DC and she’s going to Mexico. There isn’t a doubt in my mind that is the case. If you need proof? Here’s [url=”http://jjovenidea.com/jemell/chuck%20screenshots/purplego.jpg”]proof[/url]:
    “If you’re here to plead Chuck’s case, there is no need”
    That’s love. I’ve talked all week about the NEED for her to accept Chuck as a killer, she gave it to me. She accepts him as is, because they FINALLY HAD THAT ONE IMPORTANT CONVERSATION! Granted in this case it’s pieces of conversations but it is one long commentary:

    It might be a kick in the nads but it’s meaningful and emotional…
    “There’s nothing stopping us from being together anymore, I’m a spy now”
    “That’s exactly why we can’t be together, you’re not the same guy I fell for”—-FINALLY to Chuck. She’s expressed her fear/her angst to Chuck.
    “I know what you think you saw but it’s not that it’s more complicated than that. It’s not what you think and I need you to believe me”
    “I don’t”

    “I know you think I’m not that same guy you met the first day at the Buy More and you’re right. That guy in the buy more hated himself. For not knowing what he wanted to do and how he wanted to spend his life. Finally now I know. I want to be a spy, and I want to be with you”

    Good God. I almost expired in that spot. This is love, love is overcoming doubts and fears and jumping. Jumping even though no one may catch you but you have to do it, you have to take that risk. Bravo Chuck. You are a spy, more than that, you’re a great guy (Sarah’s words from S1).

    This conversation has been a long time coming. So long, but it was so worth it. Because even though she didn’t say much in the end it’s obvious to me that the people they were has returned, for the better in Chuck’s case (still waiting to see it in Sarah’s case frankly).. Because their priorities are set, their feelings exposed. Finally.

    Now to get back to full circle…in Pink Slip when Sarah was asking Chuck to run away with her the song playing was…you got it, “Wait it Out” by Imogene Heap. Sometimes it just dawns on me how brilliant the team is…this is one of those times. Wait it out, “run away with me” fast forward to tonight what is playing? “Down River” when Chuck asks her to run away with him. Full circle. And right where we belong.

    BTW the lyrics:
    finally we have seen some things, some awfully nice, some dreadfully bad. But we will sing, wash the blood off our knees cause our love breaks through rough seas our ship will sail. And I don’t understand how this world would work cause time will tell us nothing I’ll take a chance on something feeling old, feelings this time take you down river, down river, down river, down walk these stairs, put the pieces back together.

    Now is that not brilliant to the capital B?

    Just lovely.

    • Mischievous says:

      Thanks for that Faith, once again you’ve managed to put into words that which I can’t express coherently myself.

    • PeterOinNj says:

      Faith, thank you for your post. Being loved can come as a surprise, and I’m sure
      Sarah was very surprised. The love of another thrills and excites us and she needed to hear it. Being loved supports us and enables us to value ourselves. Our life is significantly affected by loving and being loved. Love is very powerful – it has the power to transform – and unconditional love transforms unconditionally. That is how Sarah will be saved! Chuck told her he loves her unconditionally: “I love you – I always have.”
      Sarah can’t see the goodness in herself. It’s Chuck’s mission to show it to her. One
      of the greatest gifts a person can possess is to be able to reach past the barriers and find the
      goodness within others. This is the characteristic of love, to look at a person, and knowing their
      faults, recognize the nobility in their soul and their worth, and help them to see they can get beyond their faults. Chuck has that gift and he is giving it to Sarah. What a great gift indeed!

    • Crumby says:

      I like that Sarah said to Chuck at the restaurant “What are you saying?”, he asked her the same thing in Pink Slip when she asked him to run away.

      • Paul says:

        I thought the “what are you saying?” was a great throwback to vs. The First Date…where their conversation/kiss was also interrupted after that line…:P

      • Crumby says:

        They also used the “what are you saying?” line in Seduction :

        “- Okay, look, the sooner we get the Cipher back, the sooner you can have the Intersect removed, and the sooner you can be free
        to live whatever life you choose with whomever you choose.
        – What are you saying?
        – I’m saying that you can have everything that you’ve always wanted.”

        I guess there were just not that clear with each other!

    • DaveB says:

      Of course, now we are left with wondering two things:

      Why would Chuck need to ask Sarah “Sarah, do you love me?”

      What will her answer be?

      • Merve says:

        I’m thinking that that scene comes after Chuck actually kills someone, and fearing that Sarah doesn’t see him as the “same guy” anymore, he asks that question.

      • Paul says:

        Well DR over at Chuckgasmic stated a while back that the SDYLM scene was in the back 6 (at this point undoubtedly true) and that it wasn’t what it seemed. It feels more like a “do you trust me” or “please do this for me” type of query instead of a confirmation of her feelings.

      • JLR says:

        ^^ I kind of latched onto your idea (was it serious, btw?) that perhaps the DYLM & Doc Brown things could be related… Wasn’t sure if you were being sarcastic b/c of the negativity about the whole DYLM scene… I actually think something like that makes sense.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        After last night I’m convinced and they have convinced me that Sarah will take Chuck as is, even as a killer. I think Doc Brown is more for Chuck (and spoilers support this) than anyone.

      • Paul says:

        JLR, I was being a bit snarky with the idea of Sarah going into therapy as the synopsis states it for Chuck (I’m thinking the DYLM is Chuck stating that he needs this and she needs to understand why he goes). Although them doing a Mr & Mrs Smith type of session would be interesting. Or Sarah approaching the Doc at the end of the eps by herself…

    • Fake Empire says:

      Your shipper heart is showing again Faith! And I think that’s great. Agreed: the most powerful and transforming words in human language – “I love you.” It’s been a rough trip for these two, but seriously, is love really ever easy? Not a love that’s worth having and keeping. As exhausted as I was as a viewer, I find myself pulling for these two again. Frankly, I’m glad to see that back in myself.

    • Paul says:

      Excellent post Faith!

    • ChuckNewbie8 says:

      Thanks guys. I guess for the first time in awhile I care again…not just care so much (obviously I always have) just that I can root for them again.

      • atcdave says:

        Really excellent post Faith. But you said you posted it NBC too? I hear they have a really tough new moderator over there, I bet you’re in trouble….

      • Faith says:

        Thanks.

        LOL! She’s got a keyboard and she’s not afraid to use it. Ima scared 😉

    • Big Kev says:

      Faith….(yet) another awesome post!
      Can’t add anything that you haven’t already said, but I wanted to give a further plug to the Temper Trap. They’re a Melbourne band (my current hometown), and I’ve been lucky enough to see them live a couple of times. If you get a chance to see them, do, because they’re excellent. “Condition” is also an outstanding album.
      JS continues to unearth fabulous music for hos shows.

  23. Faith says:

    case of disappearing post? 😦

    • Faith says:

      Anyways, long story short…loved it.

      Now was that so hard?!

    • joe says:

      So sorry, Faith. Once again, I have no idea why the spam filter didn’t like this.

      I had to rescue a couple of others in another thread, too.

      For the record, I do know that WordPress hates short posts (1 – 3 words), posts with 3 or more links in them, posts that use the name of certain “male enhancement” products more than once, and posts that come from .ru domains. Other than than, it baffles me sometimes.

      And worse, there seems to be no way to adjust it.

      In general, every post should appear when submitted; there is no moderation. But if it doesn’t appear, send me an email at jmj(dot)buckley(at)verizon(dot)net and I’ll dig it out of the spam filter ASAP.

      Thanks.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        Thanks Joe. Actually it wasn’t a biggie. Akismet just hates me haha.

        Btw I meant the “was that so hard” not as a statement to you but to TPTB 🙂 just in case you misconstrued it.

  24. Emily says:

    I too love love LOVED it. Sure, it was predictable, but probably just because we are all super clever over here. And, even though it was predictable, it was the way i had hoped it would go (except for the C/S kiss – i also noticed a lack of chemistry, but have pinned it down to Sarah still being hesitant of Chuck and his intentions). If you ignore the plot holes, it really was a great episode. Looking forward to 3×13 (a whole week to wait? Really?)

  25. John B says:

    I don’t think it’s ‘lack of chemistry’, I think the kiss was supposed to be like Sarah Walker was just plain hesitant because she’s still so confused about her own feelings. She still obviously cares deeply (hell, loves) Chuck, but maybe, just maybe, she feels for Shaw as well.

    Having said that, I would love for Chuck to actually illustrate Sarah’s contradictions, but that isn’t going to happen.

  26. Chuckaddict says:

    So, it seems obvious to me that next week Chuck is going to have to make a choice. He’s going to have to choose between killing Shaw and saving Sarah. Another catch 22. Save Sarah, to end up losing her. My guess is he shoots Shaw, hence the therapy in the back 6, and more opportunity for angst from TPTB.

    • Lucian says:

      If Chuck kills Shaw to save Sarah and he therefore is not the guy for her because he is a killer, then they have passed any notion of sane storytelling and someone needs to sign Sarah’s committment papers. I don’t think even they are that far out to lunch.

    • HenryH says:

      There is a real, real problem here. Even if Chuck kills someone, that doesn’t wash away Sarah’s “sin” on the red test. There’s no storytelling balance.

      My guess: Chuck doesn’t kill anyone and it is revealed, somehow, that Sarah didn’t kill Shaw’s wife on the red test. That would also balance Casey killed Chuck’s mark on his red test…

      • Chuckaddict says:

        I agree with you both. It doesn’t make any sense, but what has so far this season? I would much rather see that Sarah didn’t in fact kill Eve, she somehow survived and is involved with the Ring. This would provide some redemption for Sarah’s character and her flawed insistence that Chuck not be like her. It might also show them both that some people are in fact better of dead.

        It just doesn’t seem that’s the way things are headed. TPTB keep rehashing the same themes this season. I think Shaw’s threatening Sarah will push Chuck over the edge, and he’ll finally be able to pull the trigger. I hope I’m wrong, but it seems like too good a cliffhanger; Will Sarah accept Chuck’s killing to save her? This next episode was originally the season finale.

      • weaselone says:

        Even if Sarah didn’t kill Eve and she’s somehow still alive, Sarah has still killed. It’s not like all her other kills are somehow negated because she wasn’t successful in her first attempt.

      • HenryH says:

        Actually, I am OK with a show that talks about kill/no kill. Danger Man (Secret Agent in the US) was a show that made of point of having John Drake not use a gun. And when McGoohan did The Prisoner as the follow up, he never had The Prisoner carry a gun.

        Chuck and Sarah not being on the same page about it and assessing each other’s worth based on it, however, is not cool.

        Doesn’t matter what we thing, though (again). The back six are already in the can…

      • JLR says:

        ^^ Heh, if there’s anything I’ve learned this season (my first ever part of a show’s fandom) it’s that what fans think doesn’t matter!! LOL. Everyone from showrunners to critics to NPR reporters to fellow fans have pounded that into my head. If I’m ever unfortunate enough to be a part of another fandom, I’ll do my level best to remember that.

      • Chuckaddict says:

        My guess is that it’s different for her because she didn’t know who red test target(Eve) was or why she was targeted, still doesn’t. She was just given an order. Find this woman in the picture and kill her. Even with Mauser she knew who he was and why she killed him. Maybe we’ll find out more as we finally get into what the Ring is about. Maybe.

      • Lucian says:

        Sarah’s double standard isn’t a whole lot different than a guy who expects his wife to be faithful, but doesn’t need to be faithful himself. It makes no sense, if Sarah is supposed to be a likable character.

    • weaselone says:

      Nah. I mainly responded to Sarah’s hostility to Chuck in the beginning of this episode. Why Sarah would pursue Shaw and stonewall Chuck is understandable. There’s no sense of loss or guilt with Shaw. If Sarah was with Chuck, she’d always be reminded of who he was, the man she helped to corrupt and ultimately destroy. In Sarah’s mind Chuck is a killer like Shaw, but unlike Chuck Sarah has no memory of a time when Shaw wasn’t a killer and wasn’t an accessory to his transformation into one.

    • Waverly says:

      Perhaps you’re just speculating about the next episode, but why do you think Chuck only has the two choices of killing Shaw or losing Sarah?

      When it comes to Chuck, there’s always another choice.

      • Chuckaddict says:

        I’m just speculating. I’m afraid it’s going to happen more than anything. It leaves a cliffhanger for the season finale, plus a rehash of Chuck’s test. This time Casey won’t be there to bail him out. It’s another opportunity for TPTB to give us a poke. I guess I’m jaded from all the angst this season.

        My hope is we now get to move on and get into bringing the Ring down. I’m sure it won’t be all tea and roses for C&S, but it’s past time to move on and start building the show again.

        I like the idea posted that it’s Sarah that shoots Shaw, poetic justice and all.

    • atcdave says:

      I like the Sarah kills Shaw scenario. He may be trying to kill Chuck as a way of “getting even” with her, or something like that.

  27. Jason says:

    I am going on memory from yesterday, but a few things caught my eye:

    1 – sarah said to shaw on their date, we should have done this sooner – really odd – moving in together before ever been on a date – or am I imagining the moving in together part?

    2 – missed an opportunity for the best scene ever, all 3 seasons, what did sarah do after chuck / shaw emerged, spent seconds on sarah’s confused looking face and cut – my goodness was that a missed opportunity

    3 – with chuck waiting at the train station, sarah left with shaw, even after she symbolically left her gun and quit the spy world – I am not so sure shaw does not only block cell phone calls, he seems to block all sarah brain functions

    4 – chuck says ILU to sarah, sarah says I made a commitment to washington, not just because of shaw – which implies shaw is one of the reasons, i.e. she is picking shaw over chuck, not sure exactly when that scene happens, but might have been after the shaw rescue – have to look later, but again, wow – that is some pretty bad writing

    Other than those 4 slips, show was great, I know I made some of you guys mad by saying this is the lamest spy show ever, it is all about the people and relationships, but if that ever was clear it was 3.12 – but when chuck and sarah are together, many simply give a free pass to the writers, including me.

    the critics did not seem so forgiving, those same ones who told us to let the story play out in 3.7, are now being very critical of the entire arc, ironic as all hell.

    ratings for 3.12 and 3.13 will be interesting, I am not very confident.

    • Chuckaddict says:

      It seemed to me that Shaw was more or less “taking” Sarah, not her leaving with him. She has no reason to not trust him yet…

      • Crumby says:

        And she did say “I have to call Chuck”.

      • JC says:

        How bout we a need a reason to keep the story going, otherwise C/S would be in Mexico.

        No big deal

      • JLR says:

        Yeah, Sarah leaving w/ Shaw, not a huge deal to me (meaning, as far as her motivations go). BTW, Sarah looked FREAKING HOT when she was leaving her room to meet up w/ Chuck. I say this as one of the few heterosexual men on the planet who really isn’t into YS (I’m kinda like Chuck pre-Sarah…prefer brunettes).

      • Jason says:

        JC – we are repeating the prague scene roles reversed, sarah isn’t bothering to show up after 12 episodes of sarah’s / writer’s fuss over chuck’s prague performance – never mind – it just doesn’t matter

      • AngelTwo says:

        Jason-
        On the Union Station thing, I think the writers were going for Sarah being interrupted by work a la Chuck being interrupted by work in Prague.

      • Fake Empire says:

        Good call on Sarah, JLR. Hot indeed.

    • Paul says:

      I’ll address your points by number:

      1) I don’t think S/S had moved in together. On another forum, someone actually laid out the timeline and had shown that S/S have only been together for a couple of weeks. I think this is the first time that Sarah really allowed herself to really consider the possibility of moving forward with Shaw.

      2) I agree to a point, but I think that it was meant to show that she was relieved to see both of them alive…because quite frankly I doubt she believed she’d see either one of them again.

      3) Shaw showing up was a mission supplanting her “real life”. And as someone pointed out, she tried calling Chuck to let him know what was going on. And I agree Shaw “grabbed” her more than Sarah going with him. And we are supposed to get the bad vibes of him driving her out to the desert with no phone coverage..

      4) I think Sarah’s comment was to show her trying to move on from him, but IIRC that line came BEFORE he dropped the multiple ILY bombs.

  28. AngelTwo says:

    After Sepinwall’s confession of doubt last night, here’s another admitting the showrunners have run amok. Forgive me folks, I’m IN the media. We’re not supposed to be mindless shills for TV shows. I just find it fascinating that no one wanted to take on Schwartz (an admittedly powerful showrunner) until this late.

    MOVIELINE:
    http://www.movieline.com/2010/03/has-chuck-stretched-its-will-they-or-wont-they-thread-to-the-breaking-point.php

    • JLR says:

      Like rats scurrying off a sinking ship…

    • JLR says:

      And also after consecutive 1.9 demos (prior to ep. 12)….

    • Waverly says:

      Just as all episodes are produced and finished well ahead of airing, maybe reviews are written well ahead of publication.

      Or maybe reviewers have finally caught up with reading all of the other commentary from earlier this season.

      That would explain the delay in reaction times.

  29. herder says:

    Initial numbers out, 4.2/7 which is what they got for the Beard.

    • PeterOinNj says:

      Dude, if that’s true, that’s actually the highest since Pink Slip which was 4.2/6.
      Beard was 3.8/6.
      Source: http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/01/21/chuck-ratings-nbcs-chuck-nielsen-ratings-for-season-3/39601?utm_campaign=WP-TWITTER&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

    • John says:

      Source for that?

      • PeterOinNj says:

        Source for the ratings numbers I posted.

      • PeterOinNj says:

        Click the link in the post

      • John says:

        No for Herder’s initial numbers. You linked your source.

      • herder says:

        John, I was in a couple of meetings and so couldn’t reply, the source is Mark Berman’s site, I link to it from tvbythenumbers. Also I was wrong, the early numbers for the Beard were 4.5/7, 4.2/7 was for Tic Tac and the early numbers for Final Exam were 3.9/6. The final numbers for Tic Tac were distorted by daylight savings time, today’s numbers are likely what that episode would have got barring DST.

    • John says:

      Ratings are 5.6 million, 2.1 Demo.

      Up 11% from last week.

      http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/03/castle-series-high-rating.html

      I think a steady increase back to 2.4 range might be enough to save the show.

      • wdm0744 says:

        In a word –
        Awesome!

        I actually didn’t care for a lot of this episode, but I’m still behind Chuck 100%, and this is very good news.

      • Drakan says:

        You have to remember that the 2.1 was against reruns of HIMYM and House.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Actually, not awesome. The .2 jump was exactly the jump Apprentice got on Sunday night. In other words, televisisons shut after apprentice, turned on again and got to Chuck.

        Positive: 2.1 is about as good as NBC gets on a scripted show and the programs after Chuck tanked. So at least Chuck is holding.

        But there’s not likely to be any more ratings rebound. After Chuck declined last year, it got back to 2.1 and stayed there…

      • John says:

        Yes I am aware of the re-run status of House and HIMYM but what those two shows have been doing has never really effect Chuck one way or the other ratings wise before. I thought we had established this before…but I guess if you are just determined to be gloomy don’t let me stop you.

        11% increase is an 11% increase.

      • wdm0744 says:

        Oh, man – with the negative vibes. Come on. 🙂

        Let’s enjoy this little victory while we have it.

        This was probably one of my least favorite episodes so far (the plot holes and character inconsistencies were rampant)but I am still glad to see Chuck back up in the ratings.

        An 11% increase almost puts us back to where we were three weeks ago when everything was considered pretty safe renewal-wise.

        Plus, if I remember correctly, in an interview with the NYT before season 3, an NBC executive said that if Chuck could stay above 2.0, it be cool.

        And, we shouldn’t forget that Chuck was also NBC’s highest rated show for the night. I think there could definitely be some truth to the notion that NBC is in such dire straights, they would keep Chuck.

        Regardless – this is what we wanted. Be happy.

      • John says:

        Angeltwo,

        Yesh if it holds at 2.1 the show is almost certainly done.

        We still need another 0.3 Demo at least I think.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        Shippers get the last laugh. Bug said.

  30. wdm0744 says:

    John and Angel Two –

    So, you’re saying that it needs a steady 2.4 to get renewed.

    Fair enough, but is this your opinion, or do you have an industry source that backs that up?

    Personally, based on the NYT article ( I think this is the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/arts/television/05chuck.html ) and the speculation by both Auseillo and Spinwell, I’d say this is a GOOD sign, even if Chuck doesn’t get above 2.1 for the rest of the season (and what’s to say it won’t)?

    • John says:

      Totally my own opinion. When the show was rocking along earlier with 2.5s and 2.4s that NBC exec said if Chuck maintains it will be fine.

      2.1s might be enough for a 13 episode order…I just doubt it.

      • wdm0744 says:

        You could be right – I obviously don’t know either.

        But, regardless, I’m happy Chuck is back up and I’m going to stay positive.

        So, 2.1 was about the score at the end of Season 2 right? Would you think that NBC is overall in a worse spot now?

        I know logic doesn’t really play into the equation, but if these are similar scores and NBC is in worse shape, it makes sense that we would at least get a 13 order.

      • John says:

        Your article does indicate that NBC only expected Chuck to get 2.0 kind of ratings when they gave it this timeslot to begin with.

        So maybe…

        I am optimistic, this is good news no doubt. We just need the news to continue to get better.

        That is a bit of daunting challenge going up against the NCAA Basketball Championship next week.

      • herder says:

        Guys, last year it bottomed out at 2.1 with Leathal Weapon, stayed at that or 2.2 then gradually rose to a 2.4 for Colonel and the Ring. It will have to do the same or better to come back.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        I’ve always been under the impression that ratings are episodes behind. What I mean by that is these ratings are actually for final exam…aka rebound for TAWSHNBN (the arc which shall not be named). So this bodes well for next and future.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Herder-
        Misspoke. It was at 2.1 for most of the back half of the season after Third Dimension (which did a 3.0 after the Super Bowl push) and did 2.3, 2.3, 2.4 for the last three of last year.

        It will be interesting what 3.13 does and what the back six looks like after the two-week break.

        My guess is that 2.1 won’t do it for a renewal. For a variety of cost, political and ratings reasons. But what I don’t understand is why NBC doesn’t try the show on a less brutal night to see if it has any legs.

  31. Jen says:

    Hey guys, someone got this pic out of the preview for next ep. I though the ‘shippers (like me) would be happy =P http://twitpic.com/1buzy9

    Ive been super busy and dont’ have much time to write. I liked the ep… finally Chuck being vocal about what he wants. I know we all know he’s been in love with Sarah for a while, but it’s the first time he states his purpose: be a spy, only if Sarah is with him.
    The line of Sarah not believing Chuck i think was unnecessarily harsh and i don’t understand how she can’t believe him, unless she’s again not really saying how she feels and is lying to herself, saying that out of pain.
    The comedy was awesome… so many quotable lines that had me laughing out loud. Also, we got more confirmation that Shaw is PSYCHO, he doesn’t really care for Sarah.

    There are many other moments i enjoyed. Felt a little puzzled at the General telling Chuck they have spent many millions of dollars training him for 3 years.

    Wish i could write more but i gotta run! dutty calls.

    • John says:

      There were some problems with pacing and plot holes and some OOC moments but the bottom line is when the episode is fun we can overlook those. Rule of Cool and all that.

      • Jen says:

        Yeah… i picked up those moments too, but when good stuff is happening, the story is moving along, the comedy and action are on, it’s easier to overlook… and i found myself overlooking.

    • Paul says:

      Jen, I took Sarah’s harshness early in the eps as a concerted effort to cut ties with Chuck. She was determined to move on, and that, unfortunately meant hitting Chuck below the belt…at least verbally.

    • Mischievous says:

      I said this in a post above but I’ll repeat it here. She put herself out on an emotional limb and he broke her heart into bits in Prague, and now he’s asking for another chance. Her not trusting him to not hurt her again is completely in character to me.

      • Crumby says:

        I think it’s kind of “funny” in a way that everything Chuck says about his red test (“Sarah, I know what you think you saw on the train tracks, but it’s not that simple. It’s more complicated than that. And I need you to believe me.”) was everything Sarah warned him about in Pink Slip (nothing being real, everything being complicated).

      • atcdave says:

        Good catch!

      • Paul says:

        But if you look closely in the first Castle scene, you’ll notice her ears perk up when he tells her it’s not what it seems. I think this is the moment that she starts to have an inkling of second guessing her earlier decision.

      • atcdave says:

        yeah Paul, its interesting that she really wants an answer. I think its safe to say Sarah has never been “over” Chuck. She’s occasionally been furious with him, but never over.

      • Jason says:

        crumby – i would guess same appies to sarah’s red test – nothing is as it seems

      • Crumby says:

        Yes and it can apply to several stuff here.
        Was Eve aiming for a weapon?
        Did Sarah really killed her? She didn’t check.
        Was Eve a really a double agent? Or was she a triple agent?

    • Lauren says:

      Hey Jen!

      Maybe it’s just another case of fanon but I took Sarah’s “I don’t believe you” to be a defense mechanism. She’s slipping under the onslaught of Chuck’s attempts to win her back. It’s in her nature to believe in him and to trust him and saying otherwise is her way of trying to convince herself. To me, it sounded like a desperate barrier erected at the last minute. Or, I could just be crazy.

      • josh says:

        the I don’t believe you came pretty early on so it’s probably not the onslaught of Chuck’s attempts.

        I tend to think it’s simpler than that. She had just lost faith in Chuck. Granted most of the reasons she lost faith in him where due to the fact she never actually speaks to him and goes off on tangents in her own head, but nonetheless, I think at that time she just didn’t believe in him enough to believe what he was saying. I m pretty sure she believed him in the restaurant scene though.

  32. JLR says:

    Gotta admit, I did a double take…thought it was Shaw until I really looked at it. I thought, “you gotta be $%#@! kidding me!”

    • John says:

      I think we are just so paranoid now that TPTB seem to have brought them together they are going to push the reset button somewhere.

      Seriously I love the show but if they do that…

    • Waverly says:

      I wonder if the Shaw character was purposely cast as someone who looked somewhat like Chuck.

  33. Mike B says:

    This Blog must be in a valley. All the reviewers, including Magnus, are echoing what we have been saying the whole season. But we are stil “crazy shippers”.

    • John says:

      Did you notice that to? I was shocked that DR did not like the episode on his podcast for pretty much the same reasons we had been saying for months.

      Strangely most of us liked the episode. Who are the crazy shippers now?

      Further why complain about this now that it is in the past? They got the main characters together. We can move on now.

      • weaselone says:

        I was left scratching my head after reading some of the reviews and listening to the Podcast. Admittedly some people may have been pushed over the edge by the last couple kicks to the grain the writers felt they needed to deliver to Chuck during this episode, but in the end the whole will they won’t they thing appears to be nearly wrapped up. So what if Shaw basically abducted Sarah at the end of the episode? It’s not as though they are running away together (in a car with a 200 mile range). That’s what Sarah had intended to do with Chuck. And if we’re going to get all snobbish about it, that sort of thing had to happen. Sarah and Chuck can’t go on the run to Mexico and have there still be a show. Plus, for all the angst there was a sizable amount of Zach-Yvonne screen time together and an enormous amount of fun packed into the episode.

        I can’t help but think all the critics were holding this in until the end of the season of angst to let loose and now that things are resolved, well they feel able to offer actual criticism again.

      • Faith says:

        That probably is the case…it was like a don’t kick while they were down…because I was DEFINITELY kicking them. A lot actually.

      • weaselone says:

        I used grain instead of groin. Being kicked in the grain would only apply to Shaw, although I suppose Shaw did indeed get kicked in the grain. Finding out that the nail to your board was made redundant by the hottie you’re currently implanting with splinters has to smart a bit.

      • John says:

        Well the timing is bad. We desperately need to generate higher ratings and stir some enthusiasm. We don’t need critics figuring it is safe now to unbottle their frustration from episodes that took place weeks ago.

        Ah well nobody listens to critics really so it probably is not a big deal.

        But really people say they liked Fake Name and Beard and so forth now jumping on American Hero for the WT/WT being strung out too long?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I think the thing that bothered me most about the angst this season was that aside from stringing it out too long they both pushed it to front and center, and then seemed not to allow it to move for several episodes. From the end of Mask, or even Nacho Sampler to the beginning of Final Exam I didn’t see any real movement, just a replay each time of Sarah fearing what Chuck had become and turning to Shaw or running away. They could have done the angst part of the story in about two episodes rather than drag it out so long.

      • Faith says:

        Ernie, I’d even go as far as to say…half of these episodes were unnecessary…we’re always talking about how they’re rushed and they don’t have the episodes to tell the whole story. Bull.

        Pink Slip, Three Words to Fake Name(?), Final Exam…done and done. It all goes together anyhow. A lot of the fillers in the middle are just that fillers. Angsty, downtrodden fillers.

      • John says:

        Yep Ernie that was my issue as well…the pacing was just poor for most of the season. But it is over now so why focus on it after the fact? It will not inform watchers to tell them that past episodes had this issue, they want to know what to expect from future episodes.

      • Jason says:

        as we are starting to debrief from this season, I would have to think one of the major issues was the writing quality / continuity

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I’m resolved to let my issues go and hope we can just move on. Last night’s few additional knees to the groin weren’t helping though.

        As far as a season debrief Liz e-mailed me with an interesting thought. She thinks there are signs of some major re-writes. Does anyone know when Routh started how many episodes he was scheduled for and when he was extended for more? Poochie may have had more of a detrimental effect than we first thought.

      • Jason says:

        lots of the writing issues revolved around the sarah story, in which case the writers may not have quite known what was going on with one another, klemmer in 7/13 may have had a different sense of it than rosenblaum in 9 for example? I almost have to think Adler was pi$$ed about it, but subbed in the fake name in the hotel room instead of sex. If you think about it, sex in 3.8 break up in 3.9 and routh is out, would have been traumatic, but it would have been over at the end of 3.9 when routh tried to blow chuck up and sarah shot him, or something of that nature.

    • JLR says:

      Yup. All of a sudden, PLI’s were “probably a mistake”, and lack of C/S shared screentime likewise. If someone other than those self-annointed says something like that, all you hear are screeches of “crazy shipper, crazy shipper!!!”

  34. herder says:

    Interesting tweet from Sepinwall, “still trying to wipe the smile off my face after seeing the advance copy of next week’s Chuck, the best of the season”. Good news, I’d feel better if it was Mo Ryan though. The rest don’t really matter.

    Maybe for once this season things will live up to the overused word “epic”.

  35. Waverly says:

    I don’t understand what made Chuck believe that he and Sarah could just run away, given what happened in Pink Slip.

    I know it’s a nice story device to mirror Sarah’s asking Chuck to run away, but what has really changed to make Chuck believe it could possibly work now? He’s less attached to the Buy Morons, and I suppose he thinks Ellie is going away, but all of the reasons from Three Words still hold.

    Sure, he’s feeling trapped by Beckman’s expectations and uncertainty regarding his future with Sarah, but he had already mentioned to Casey about trying to figure out how to quit.

    • John says:

      He is taking a chance. He is showing Sarah he puts nothing above spending the rest of his life with her, so he is willing to give up being a Spy and everything else. So he is saying he wants to do what Sarah wanted to do back in 3.1

      It is not a reaction against Beckman or Ellie leaving or anything else. He is taking Ellie’s advice and not letting anything stop him.

      That is my view.

      • wdm0744 says:

        Yeah, I’ll half-buy that (sorry, John, its seems I’m responding to everything you say today)-

        But what about the sudden switch between wanting the spy life and then not wanting it all in one episode?

        It bothered me how in the restaurant Chuck said he wanted to be with Sarah and be a spy, but at the end he said he wanted to be with her and leave the spy stuff behind.

        So, what happened to change his mind?

        If someone can explain that to me, it would help, because this was one of the main problems I had with the episode, and it’s keeping me from loving it (well, that and Shaw’s Vader-esque “Noooooo!”).

      • John says:

        In my mind the conversation with Ellie happened. That made it up for him that he would give up being a spy for her.

        He would rather have both though I think.

      • Crumby says:

        He said he only wanted to be a spy if Sarah was with him.
        “I mean, what’s the point of being a spy without her?”

        So he tried to get her to go to Rome, she said no. So he tried something else, what she wanted in Prague.

        So I guess now it’s Sarah who has to decide to be a spy, because Chuck would want to do it only with her.

      • Waverly says:

        But I would like to believe that if he were really acting as a Bartowski should act, he wouldn’t give up so easily on teaming up with Sarah as a spy.

        Unless Chuck thinks Ellie telling him to act like a Bartowski isn’t such an admirable trait.

      • Crumby says:

        Ellie also said in Tic Tac that Devon’s was the best choice she ever made, and was ready to give up her dream job for him, so…

    • Jen says:

      I didn’t get that he wanted to run-away, but to spend some time with hi. before the assignment. Did i completely misunderstand?
      He tells her when he first sees her that he wants her in his team. WHen he later thinks he’s lost her de decides he’ll quit cause he doesnt’ want to be a spy without her. Whe he tells her her loves her and asks her to go with hin to Mexico, i think it means for a break. I may need to re-watch that scene if i in fact got it all wrong.

      • wdm0744 says:

        The break deal would make sense (kind of like asking her to go on vacation in vs. The Ring), but, he specifically says, “I want to be with you and leave all this spy stuff behind”.

        Although – now that you mention it, I guess you could still be right. He could still be saying they could vacation together for a week as Beckman offered (although going to Mexico, France, and who knows wherever else would probably eat up a week fast).

        But, the more I think on it, he framed what he said around her speech to him in Prague, which advocated running away from the fake spy life for good.

        All very inconsistent. It really bothered me.

      • John says:

        No I think it is pretty clear he is saying he will give up EVERYTHING to be with her. He wants to do what Sarah wanted to do all along: run away together. For her.

        But since we know that will never happen it probably is not worth getting too worried about it.

      • Crumby says:

        He said :
        “Look, you were right in Prague. You and I, we’re perfect for each other. And I want to spend the rest of my life with you, away from everyone else, and away from this spy life.”

        And Sarah left her gun on the bed so she thought she didn’t need it anymore.

      • Faith says:

        I kind of saw it like you did. It’s a vacation of sorts…because especially now that Sarah accepts him as a spy/not…him being a spy is no longer a road block.

        Remember he did say, “Look, I don’t want there to be any secrets or lies between us ever again. So please just let me have this one. And I promise I will never lie to you”

        When she made her decision (seen in her apt packing) that’s as far as she knows. Basically that he’s still Chuck, the guy she fell in love with in essence. Even as a spy.

      • Crumby says:

        Well yes Sarah may not want Chuck out anymore, but a vacation wasn’t Chuck offer.

        I don’t see why she would let her gun though. Except if she doesn’t want use gun anymore…

        But I kind of interesting in “her commitment” in DC. What did Beckman offer her?

      • Crumby says:

        I didn’t mean to be that confident in my statement “that was Chuck offer”. Sorry.
        That’s just my opinion.

        He didn’t talk about coming back or Rome or anything and he specifically said “away from the spy life”.

      • atcdave says:

        It can be tricky to do international travel with gun if you’re not on official business!

      • Crumby says:

        lol yeah

        We’re not really gun fans here back in France anyway, so they wouldn’t need it at the Eiffel Tower. 🙂

    • Mischievous says:

      I think it simply stemmed directly from Ellie’s talk. He’s doing everything he can to show her that he really loves her no matter how unrealistic.

  36. Matt Simons says:

    I thought it was awesome how Casey reacted to the mission Chuck was given. “You can choose anybody? Even a civilian?” Casey used to hate working with and protecting Chuck, and now Casey sees Chuck as his way back in. Their relationship has come full circle. I have to bring up a Star Wars reference between Obi-Won and Vader. I’m not sure if it was intended, or if I am just seeing what I want to see, but I thought it was really cool.

    Very strong episode and I hope it brings the viewers back that tried out Chuck as well as brought some of the people who left the show, back to it.

    Chuck CAN be saved. I hope they can build on the momentum. FOX is reruns next week, CBS will have the pre-game to the Men’s championship (I think). I know relying on soft competition is wrong, but I’ll take any victory I can get involving Chuck these days.

    • wdm0744 says:

      Already voted. And sent the link to everyone I know.

      I DO hope we get a 4th (and better) season, but I also hope this “Save Chuck” campaign doesn’t become a perennial thing.

      Here’s hoping we get a 4th Season in a better time slot.

      • John says:

        If we get a 4th season…then getting a fifth is alot easier. Networks like to get 100 episodes so they can get syndication.

        Five seasons might be all the series needs to tell its story anyway.

      • Crumby says:

        The last episode of this season the 54th. Getting to 100 episodes would mean doing 46 episodes in two seasons.

        Is that really conceivable? (It’s a true question not a rhetoric one!)

      • Chuckaddict says:

        There might be an allowance on the number of shows to reach syndication due to the writers strike 2 years ago.

      • John says:

        Oh right I forgot the strike shortened 1st season. The fifth season is just when most shows get their 100th.

        It is certainly possible, but usually only half hour shows get 23+ episode long seasons.

      • atcdave says:

        Its possible to do 23 a season, it used to happen a lot; and of course there’s always everyone’s favorite, the clip episode to make up numbers. But given that NBC has been short ordering recently, and they don’t own the show, so they have no vested interest in syndication; I think we’re looking at three more seasons. But four is still a really big deal, once the show starts getting close to 100, the studio gets more willing to take a loss to make it happen.

      • Chuckaddict says:

        If NBC passes on a season 4, what does anyone think the likely hood of another network picking it up (ala Scrubs) is?

        How about ABC following DWTS? I always thought 7C was the wrong timeslot for the show. It should be on later in prime time. I’d like to see NBC move it to Thursday @ 9C.

      • John says:

        Hehe WB put it on the CW?

      • atcdave says:

        I think realistically, it needs to make money for one more season; then the deep discounting may begin opening up minor/cable networks as a possibility.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Actually, I’m pretty sure for myself that I’d be okay with Chuck ending now. I don’t trust the show runners now to make another botch of season 4 in the name of romantic angst.

        That aside, however, I don’t think you’d have to sweat an episode or two on either side of 100. That’s the goal, not the make-or-break minimum.

        More importantly, however, you have to understand that Warner Bros. stands to gain by syndication, not NBC. That’s why Warner cut the fee (and the budget) this season). There’s probably not much give there from Warner now for a fourth-season renew. Moreover, if Chuck’s ratings stay as low as they have been, NBC will renew Heroes rather than Chuck. Why? NBC OWNS Heroes and makes the syndication money on it.

        So unless Chuck makes money for NBC on live broadcasts, NBC has no incentive to renew. It’d probably rather try a new show or renew Heroes if Chuck’s ratings don’t actually improve.

      • John says:

        Understandable AngelTwo. I disagree but I understand.

        Anyway the show certainly needs to get another .3 in the Demo in the beginning of the back six to have a chance with the caveat the decision will probably be made with a few episodes to go.

  37. Rochelle says:

    LOVED, LOVED, LOVED it!!! 🙂 Woohoo, can’t wait for next week. Yay.

    The only flaws in my opinion were the topsy-turvy “are we/aren’t we going to Africa” stuff with Devin & Ellie (end of previous ep makes it seem like they’re staying for Ellie’s schooling, now not so much…what happened there?) and Casey’s sudden change of heart to tell Sarah the truth about who killed the mole. Where’d that come from? He’d been so adament? {My apologies if that’s already been covered in the thread; I don’t have time to read each post…just throwing this out there into the abyss.}

    The only real drawback in my opinion is the show only lasts an hour and that hour always goes by way too faster; faster than with any other show!!

    • atcdave says:

      I think Casey REALLY want’s back into the job. Chuck is his ticket. If Chuck quits all heartbroken, Casey stays at Buy More. Besides, we know Casey is rooting for Chuck and Sarah, and she isn’t exactly a gossip.

  38. Gabbo says:

    Might as well start the e13 speculation here. “Crazy” Shaw apparently thinks Sarah is Eve at some point. What else can you make of Sarah’s statement to him that “I killed your wife!” Around the bend craziness.

    Chance that Shaw is killed by Chuck? 50-50

    Chance that Sarah didn’t really kill Eve? 80-20

    And while I’m speculation, can we assume that “Chuck versus the Living Dead” addresses Casey going to see his former finance and his daughter?

    • Stef62 says:

      i think ep13 will finish with Shaw and Eve, as an Anti-Chuck and Sarah, if you will

      This’ll be why they can’t quit as spys. It’ll be too dangerous for them

    • DaveB says:

      I’m trending towards Shaw using Sarah as bait to get whoever it was that gave Sarah the order to kill Eve. Sarah doesn’t think that Shaw has gone around the bend, but Chuck does. I’m leaning towards Sarah pulling the trigger on Shaw because Shaw is going to kill someone (Chuck?) I think this will turn her away from guns, and she will go non-lethal as Chuck has. (I know, in the real world this means they might get killed, but this is ‘Chuck’, not the real world.) On the other hand, I’m not convinced there will be a reason for Sarah to kill Shaw, as I don’t believe that Shaw necessarily blames Sarah for Eve’s death…

      Question…All this got started 5-8 years ago (depending on the timeline in use) so Eve Shaw being killed (by a Ring agent) occurred about the same time the Bryce and Sarah hooked up?

      • Paul says:

        Shaw attacking Chuck with a knife (as speculated from the promo) is MORE than enough of a reason for Sarah to kill Shaw. I think in the end, Shaw goes off the deep end and turns on Team B.

      • Paul says:

        I think the timing is Sarah completed her Red Test, then was teamed up with Bryce.

      • Crumby says:

        Yes the red test was before but they were definitely teamed up the same year.

        Eve was killed 5 years ago, so 2005.

        And in Break Up, the flash back of Sarah and Bryce in Bogota in dated 2005 as well.

      • Fake Empire says:

        There has been so much ret-con in S3; I don’t think we can look at the timelines set up in S1 & S2 as benchmarks any longer. Unfortunately.

      • atcdave says:

        Yeah, I was going to say the same as Fake Empire. This ends up with a scenario where Sarah was considered a “top agent” in fall of 2007, after only two years on the job? I guess its possible she had quite a bit of experience in various skills and specialties prior to her Red Test, but I don’t think the timeline holds up very well under close scrutiny.

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        Well, what DOES hold up under close scrutiny in the spy story. That’s why no one cares about it–except as it delivers Chuck-Sarah relationship stuff. Whether TPTB want to admit or not, nothing except Chuck and Sarah (and their new caddy, Casey) really matters.

        That’s why you’re either a shipper–or don’t watch the show. There is very little else…

      • HenryH says:

        Actually, if you listen to the Chuck voice over in S1E2, Sarah is referred to as THE top agent of the CIA.

        But you could make the case (if you chose) that there is some logic to this. Sarah was recruited in high school. She was shephered through Harvard (if you believe the Season 1 backgrounder on her) and gets out in 2002. She does a couple of years of training, does a year in the Secret Service. You now retcon the Red Test stuff into 2005, we can give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was early 05. That gives her 2005, 2006 and most of 2007 working with Bryce. Besides, that she’s still working with Graham in 2007, nine years after he first recruited her, indicates that she might be part of his personal A Team. It could work.

      • josh says:

        I think in Final Exam, in Sarah’s “video version” of her Red Test you can see Christmas lights on the trees. So if I had to call a date, I ‘d say it was Dec 04 – Early Jan 05. She then partnered with Bryce etc.

  39. Jason says:

    I’m thinking chuck will tell sarah eve shaw was her red test. for some reason, I think sarah shaw driving away will not be a major part of 3.13, but I have no idea why, a major kidnapping does not fit with the synopsis (sarah convinces chuck shaw is stable) or the promo (sarah having to tell shaw she killed his wife) – anyone else see it different?

    • wdm0744 says:

      Oh… you’re right. I forgot about the synopsis. I had convinced myself Chuck was going to kill Shaw to save Sarah, but you’re right, the synopsis doesn’t seem to lean that way.

    • joe says:

      Maybe I’m missing it, Jason. But it’s not clear to me that Sarah knows yet that she killed Eve. I think she’ll find that out from Shaw.

    • herder says:

      The driving away thing probably won’t have too much to do with the story except for a bit of angst. After all chuck doesn’t know that Sarah was leaving to join him, all he knows is that she left with Shaw. But I think that will be dealt with quickly, Sarah’s welcome of him should be a give away.

      What I do think will be a bigger part of the story will be emotions and the difference between controlling them and burying them. All season long they have been telling Chuck that spys can’t be emotional, Sarah even says that you have to bury them deep down in Three Words. Shaw is the living embodiment ofthat idea, finding out about his wife’s death will push him over the deep end because he never learned to deal with them, he simply denies them.

      Chuck as a more balance personality has emotions and has been learning to deal with them rather than denying them. Sarah has been a person who used to deny them with the result that when she confronts them she tends to act precipitously, usually by running away. Maybe part of the story is that seeing the down side to what she has advocated that she will want to learn Chuck’s more balanced (comparatively) way of dealing with things. Over the next few episodes this could lead to her accepting a life with Chuck and life as a spy.

      • John says:

        It didn’t feel angsty at all to us the viewer because we know Sarah and Chuck love each other and he is coming after her and he seemed far more upset Shaw had nabbed her than hurt she didn’t turn up.

        So if it was supposed to be angsty it totally fell flat in that regard. That is a good thing to me of course.

      • Crumby says:

        I didn’t really cared about the end, as long as she had chosen Chuck. Plus yes Chuck was more concerned for her safety than anything.

        Could be angsty in the episode though. If Chuck think Sarah didn’t choose him when they “reunite”, Sarah may have to act on that, may not have time to do so etc.

      • Crumby says:

        Just a note while I’m talking about the end. I thought it was funny that Sarah only could Shaw “Daniel” when she actually has decided to leave gim.

      • herder says:

        If they decide to run away on a train again at the end of Other Guy I would really like to see this bit of dialogue: “Meet me at the train station” “wait, we don’t have a great record meeting at train stations, maybe we should go there together”.

      • Crumby says:

        lol herder

        “or maybe we should take a boat or something”

      • Paul says:

        @Crumby, Sarah calling Shaw by his first name to me is a more ominous sign. The only other times Sarah has called someone by their first name was with Casey, and BOTH times she was apprehensive and our nervous (the motel fight in 2.21 and right before she arrested him in 3.10). I wouldn’t read her saying “Daniel” as a sign of affection as her trying to make a human connection so she can defuse the situation.

      • Crumby says:

        Yeah you’re probably rignt Paul. I didn’t mean to read anything into it. Just wanted to point it out, because it was made on purpose (I think). When he was leaving for his suicidal mission, she said “Shaw you’re not thinking this through” or something like that. I though it was weird at the time right after the date to call him Shaw. And I din’t remember her calling him Daniel at another moment than the end. So I noticed it immediatly.

        But yeah you’re parallel with when she called Casey by is first name is good. Makes sense.

  40. herder says:

    So, I have a question, if Shaw was supposed to be in six episodes and that was extended to eight, which were the extra two and why were they added. I think it is safe to say that his first two episodes were planned (Awesome Operation and First Class), as were the Mask and Fake name. So were the added episodes the Beard and Final Exam to up the angst or were they American Hero and the Other Guy to give him a spy purpose. Or was it a combination like the Beard and American Hero.

    • Faith says:

      If I’m not mistaken he was supposed to be done by Beard. So these next couple are the added.

      And I think it’s added to add another not so ‘stiff as a board’ dimension to his character. As is he was useless, mostly as a failed mentor and a PLI.

    • JC says:

      I think it was both, add angst and give Shaw some purpose. But after Fake Name is where the wheels came off, up until that episode previous actions by the characters are mentioned. Chuck burning Manoosh, his lies, etc. After that nothing, it became one giant push to the season finale.

  41. Lucian says:

    I just had a chance to watch the episode. I thought it was one of the best of the season. Sarah’s double standard didn’t irk me as much as I thought it would. It will be interesting to see if there is an upward trend in ratings now that the story will not be PLI/angst-dominant.

  42. Ashley says:

    I got to say i loved the episode. I really liked the progress that was made and i really liked Shaw this ep dunno why really seeing him as a possible baddie maybe. But i’m glad its gotten to this point hope people come back to the show now, hope its not too late. As a whole i’ve not had a problem with the season myself but can see why people have.

    • joe says:

      Hi, Ashley. I really enjoyed it too (but hey, that’s just me). But I gotta say, I really, really dislike the Shaw character. Maybe that’s because I don’t understand him, outside of being just plain nutz. 😉

      The best thing about this epi. for me was the way that Sarah started to glow when she was with Chuck. She just lit up. Haven’t seen that since Suburbs!

  43. Jen says:

    What do you guys think… At the end of the ep, Sarah throws her gun on the bed when she’s walking out. Would she just do that if she’s planing on not coming back, ever? If her n Chuck are running away, she may just not care about leaving her stuff behind. But if Chuck has the option of quitting, and has been told that the possibility of him going to his old life exists, why the need to run? In pink slip we thought there wad no way the gov’t would leave Chuck alone so they would have to run… But we’ve been told differeny twice this season.
    Just some stuff I’m thinking about on my drive home…

    • josh says:

      I think the leaving the gun behind thing was just a symbolism of Sarah leaving that life behind or something to that effect. It was just a visual demonstration of the choice she was making. Plus obvious a plot devise to make Sarah defenseless, or at least gunless at the start of the next episode.

      As to whether they were “running” who knows. Chuck alluded he wanted to quit, in that Buy More scene, so obviously an out exists. I don’t think we ‘re supposed to think they would be fugitives or something.

    • Jason says:

      Jen, long post but, I think sarah has had it with being a field agent spy, that is why she considered (or did) entering into a relationship of convenience with shaw in DC, for what appeared to be a desk job with beckman (at least that was how I read it) – the gun was symbolic, I quit. In a sense, few viewers really got this, we all thought she was a wack job for wanting to run with chuck in prague, but that is REALLY what she wanted. Chuck literally tried everything this episode, but he really moved her when he said I love you, I don’t have to be a spy, lets share a flat in mexico city and work as waiters – I love you come to rome with me did not close the deal for him – what I find interesting, is we know they continue to be spies, or something resembling spies, I wonder what changes her mind???

      • Paul says:

        Jason, I have a feeling they try running at the end of 3.13, but get sucked back into the spy world in 3.14. It’s probably then that they realize that they are good at their jobs and can do a lot of good if they stick it out. I think the puprose of 3.15 is to show them that being a couple and being spies is not mutuallly exclusive.

      • Crumby says:

        Yeah I’m with you on that one Paul. Well at list it makes sense to me. I think they need to get out at some point and come back, I mean they’re talking about this vacation together for two years now…

      • JC says:

        Time to channel my inner romantic

        I think they’re going to find out whatever they do normal or spy life as long as they’re together that’s real.

    • Matt Simons says:

      I think Josh has the right idea. I think it was Sarah’s way of “take this job and shove it!” I would have loved just a 4 or 5 second snippet of that song with Sarah smiling, up until Shaw knocks on the door. Sarah having two completely different emotions for the two men vying for her affections; happy and giddy with the thought of a normal life with Chuck, and forlorn and serious with Shaw.

    • Faith says:

      I re-watched the episode again…I don’t think we can definitively conclude (without a doubt) whether they’re done with the spy-life or not.

      Namely because of…
      – “I don’t care where we go as long as we’re together. But I would like to see the Eiffel Tower at some point.”
      – GB’s take a week off
      – And my post from up there that has: “Look, I don’t want there to be any secrets or lies between us ever again. So please just let me have this one. And I promise I will never lie to you.”

      • Jason says:

        the throwing of the gun would be the most obvious proof, but I thought chuck’s closing arguments for the defense he sort of hinted he was ready to walk away – like she asked in prague – sort of interesting – I don’t think this will remain an open plot – since we have a pretty good idea what is coming in 3.14

      • Who Dat says:

        Wasn’t there a comment that good things would happen in Paris?

      • Crumby says:

        I hope they finally have their vacation after 313 though. Chuck is talking about it since First Date!!!

    • Jason says:

      if chuck gets shot in 3.13 because he won’t shoot / can’t shoot, and sarah kill’s to protect chuck, I wonder if sarah herself may say essentially, this is ridiculous, casey, chuck’s going get killed if he can’t shoot TO DEFEND HIMSELF, would you please teach him – which by the way, is how season 3 should have worked.

  44. Crumby says:

    I didn’t really read spoilers about the 314. I just know that Chuck and Sarah are gonna be on a train. Could they be on it for real? Like we’re finally taking our vacation together, maybe for life?

    Just wandering if that’s a possibility.
    Then the spy life would catch up with them, and that could explained why and how they’re back in business.

    • Faith says:

      The episode is called Chuck vs. the Honeymooners. Now no one believes they’re on a honeymoon but certainly interesting specs…

  45. sd says:

    I read the kinda lame spy notes on the NBC website….C says–to paraphrase– “who knew” the team was being manipulated by Shaw to learn about his dead wife….

    Interesting. Or not. 🙂

    Also…I’m with some of the other posters…if it seems Sarah would only consider running away with Chuck once he said…let’s ditch spyworld….how do they bring both of them back in the fold? I like the idea that it may be for their own protection or Sarah catches wind that as long as Chuck has the interesect in his head it’s either spy or die.

    What do folks think? Just another plot hole you can drive a truck through?

    • Jason says:

      I think the spy or die or runaway issue will get addressed, unlike many plot holes that seem to die, my guess is they may try to run but get reeled back in during 3.14, might even realize themselves there is nowhere to run?

      • Paul says:

        I agree, but I think it’s more of a realizatioin that they are good spies and can do a lot of good in teh world if they continue to do their job. I think 3.15 is meant to show C/S that being spies and being in love is not mutually exclusive.

    • herder says:

      Those spy notes are really annoying in that they try to enter ideas and facts that are not supported by what is on screen. I don’t think Shaw was manipulating the team to get info on his dead wife.

      I do think it is possible that whoever is the mole that sent Sarah to kill Shaw’s wife might have manipulated Shaw onto the team to get him close to Sarah, maybe even with the instructions that he was to seperate her from the intersect by any means necessary. This could then be used to set him against the government and specifically Sarah or Chuck by showing him what they did.

      • amyabn says:

        I still get the feeling that the Ring is using Shaw to get to Sarah. I can’t put my finger on it, but they’ve had a billion chances to kill Poochie and haven’t. I guess I’m also contradicting myself because they were after Shaw and not Sarah on their date.

      • Crumby says:

        They definitely want something from him.

        The fact that they were after Shaw on the date doesn’t mean Sarah isn’t the target overall. Depends on what they want to her. If they really need Shaw it makes sense that they go to him first.

        BTW who cald Shaw? Cause Beckman didn’t seem to know about the call, otherwise they would have an idea where they’re headed.

      • Jason says:

        i think they want shaw as a double agent, that is why they never kill him, it might be the whole purpose of the ring arc (sort of stupid, but these guys cannot write compelling spy stuff) – many (me included) think either sarah (esp after the promo) or chuck (my 1st guess) will kill shaw in 3.13, but I now sort of wonder if he is not back, at least for 3.18/3.19.

      • JC says:

        I can’t help but think Daniel Shaw never really existed at least the version we’ve seen. He believes everything he’s saying but it isn’t real. Something along the lines of the Manchurian Candidate.

      • Jason says:

        what is interesting about the Manchurian candidate scenario, is the quote from the movie ‘Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life. ‘ – what would be funny if somehow sarah (beckman) were brainwashed to see shaw as some heroic figure? note the name – shaw – someone very early pointed that out, not me. Also note in the movie a phone call set shaw off, what did shaw get at the end of 3.12?

      • Jason says:

        I’ve been staying away from retcon and fanfic – but how about the gas in the mask brainwashing sarah??????????????????????

      • JC says:

        The promo implied Chuck flashed on Shaw. Maybe its the information on those discs. Either his real name or a project he was part of.

      • Jason says:

        I have a scenerio where many of the eps from 3.5 tie together, including routh’s acting style and sarah’s infactuation with shaw (matter of fact, her love for chuck has been goofing up the plan possibly), the most difficult ones to tie together are manoosh’s intersect (other than a way to fight chuck) and casey’s pill (other than a way to get casey fired), I think rouths missions in 3.6 / 3.10 will be explained, I think beckm ‘we should tell them shaw’ will be explained, I think sarah’s sudden shift in 3.7 thru 3.12 will be explained.

        although I don’t get, is who is the Mrs Iselin character, is it eve, gen beckman, chucks mom, sarah’s mom, shaw’s mom, etc

        one thing, this plan could have been in place for a long time, remember, chuck essentially took bryce’s place, sarah could have been programmed to be with shaw years ago (i.e. the manchruian candidate scenerio)?

    • Matt Simons says:

      I think that they’ll end up undercover as homeymooners. The train bit cold be part of their honeymoon. As far as them walking away, I think you’re right in saying that the gov’t would give him the option or spying or dying. The running away has never been an option for me. He is way too attached to his sister, Morgan, and Captain Awesome to stay away for long. I think that idea made Sarah look a little short-sighted (or the writers made her look that way).

  46. AngelTwo says:

    Finished a second look at E12 and, if I may (and going backward):

    1) The toss-aside-the-gun thing is trite, of course, but it somehow reminded me of Prizzi’s Honor. Almost as Sarah felt she needed to keep a gun if Chuck had killed someone. It plays VERY weird on so many levels.

    2) Baldwin was wonderfully uncomfortable making his confession. And he kept going to his belt, like he missed having his gun for comfort–or in case Sarah was going to blow his head off…

    3) Someone up the thread mentioned this: Casey arrives to her apartment for the first time ever (save the group thing in DeLorean) and she’s packing to leave, yet she offers him “a drink or something.” What an ODD line…

    4) Boy, the more you look at Sarah packing before Chuck arrives, the more you have to question what they told Strahovski to play. She wasn’t looking particularly happy. I mean, I assume she had decided to go with Chuck, but she didn’t look happy about it. When you look at it again yourself, just look from the start of the scene til she goes to the door. It’s not so much ambiguous as morose.

    5) When Casey releases Sarah from detention in Castle, it’s startling how the ONLY thing she talks about is saving Shaw. Shocking. Unless, of course, we really ARE supposed to think she was packing to leave with Shaw… Reason 4,379 why this season was a failure, even in “victory.”

    6) Ring Director? Really? They couldn’t, just for the silliness of it all, go with Ring Leader?

    7) I do wish people would stop obsessing about Shaw-Sarah making it clear that this was their “first date” and that it proves they hadn’t slept together. First of all, why must Sarah be virginal? Second of all, especially in the line of work these people are in, sex could long precede a “public” first date. Third, it’s NEVER been about the sex. It was ALWAYS about Sarah’s emotional/intellectual intimacy with Shaw.

    And that is what we still await from Chuck and Sarah. Emotional intimacy. Talking about their mutual and individual problems. That’s the “payoff.” That’s what we wanted from this show. Without that, it’s STILL wt/wt and STILL a stupidly bad spy drama.

    And to all those “crazy shippers”–Magnus, Sepinwall and all the we-really-didn’t-like-this-season-as-much-as-we-said apologists who popped up last night and today–really nice job derisively labeling the honest fans, really sweet job claiming we were killing the show, and really GREAT job dividing the fan base by claiming to see great TV in the earlier episodes when there wasn’t any.

  47. Crumby says:

    The “throwing th gin on the bed” thing can alos be viewed as a call back to First Date. She also let her gun that time. “You don’t take a gun on a REAL date” was what she said when Chuck flashed.

  48. weaselone says:

    Hmmm. I’ve watched the episode several times and when Chuck returns from DC and confronts Sarah it sounds like the following exchange takes place

    Sarah: I know. I’m sorry. I’ve been a little…

    Chuck: …crazy. Yeah, I know.

    Originally, I’d originally assumed that I was engaging in wishful hearing and that Sarah had actually said “It’s been a little” and Chuck was simply finishing her thought, but on review I still don’t hear a ts sound. What does everyone else hear?

    • weaselone says:

      Also the scene also indicates that either there have been other conversations between Shaw and Sarah about their respective pasts, or Sarah’s been doing the CIA equivalent of Google stalking again. She transparently brings up Rome to foist Chuck off on Shaw.

      Shaw gets called Shaw in this episode, because he really isn’t playing Poochie in this episode. His character is for the most part fairly decent and even somewhat sympathetic in this episode.

    • Crumby says:

      Can’t watch the scene right know but have re-watch it yesterday with english subtitles and the team which make the subtitle also heard “I’ve been a little”. I remember because I found it a little odd.

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      Is it really important do you think? (I ask that respectfully, not facetiously.)

      It was made clear in subsequent dialog that Sarah had decided to go to Washington and with Shaw. Hence her dismissal of Chuck’s Rome offer and her brusque dialogue about his Red Test. I think they were just establishing that a) Sarah was avoiding Chuck because she’s chosen to move on; and b) Was moving on to DC and Shaw…

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        I mean, we can ASSUME she was with/planning with Shaw. She ostentatiously has piles of paperwork in front of her, too. Besides, what do you say to the love of your life when you’ve been avoiding him to plan your future with another man?

        I still think her offering Casey a “drink or something” when he arrived at her door while she’s packing to run away and hit a 7pm deadline was the oddest dialogue of the episode… I mean, goofy odd, not portentious odd…

      • weaselone says:

        I noted the second part as an afterthought. I’m not in anyway doubting the Smoochie relationship was serious.

        I’m just curious if with the first part the writers were acknowledging or confirming something to the fans regarding Sarah’s behavior.

      • Paul says:

        Well, we all know that Casey loves his Johnnt Walker Black… 🙂

      • Gabbo says:

        Weaselone-
        We just may have to accept that our fannish analysis–Sarah really has emotional issues, thus was using Shaw as a crutch or was being manipulated–however rational, is NOT what TPTB intended. They actually want us to ignore all that and accept that they presented Shaw as the legitimate romantic choice for Sarah in the perfect spy world. Just as Hannah was presented as the legitimate romantic choice for Chuck in perfect civilian world.

        Of course, to accept that, you also have to ignore all of the many times that Sarah has said (going all the way back to the first pilot script) that she doesn’t want to be a spy.

        So, forget all the emotional damage to Sarah. Forget the fact that she doesn’t want to be a spy. TPTB want you to view Shaw as Sarah’s perfect guy if she were a perfect spy.

        Ick. But whattya gonna do…

      • Crumby says:

        Yes so in those parts of reality, Sarah is a fragile little thing, emotionnaly unstable, and Chuck is a jerk!

      • weaselone says:

        @Crumby
        Chuck is a recovering jerk. He hasn’t been a jerk since he recovered his senses and broke up with Hannah.

        @Gabbo
        That’s actually a question I’d like posed to JS and CF. Was it their intent to portray Shaw as a competent spy?

      • josh says:

        Shaw doesn’t make any sense and personally I doubt he will ever make sense, ever after his arc was over.

        I think we ‘re supposed to see Shaw as Sarah’s safe choice, the guy that can’t hurt her like Chuck did in Prague. That of course completely invalidates her emotional outbursts when she’s with Shaw. But that’s the overall sense I get. Not her perfect choice if she was a perfect spy, her safe choice considering she’s in a dead end as far as her life is concerned.

      • Crumby says:

        Yes Chuck has been amazing since Beard. Great friend, great brother, great lover.

        I was just referencing how this “perfect civilian world” ended up for Chuck.

        Unfortunately, it’s not over for Sarah yet.

      • Gabbo says:

        Uh, folks, honest. Fedak TOLD you in the TV Guide interview that their intent was to provide the perfect choice for Sarah if she was the perfect spy. He called it an “alternate reality” and he didn’t mean it facetiously, as far as I can tell.

        I think you have to accept, at least in TPTB’s thinking, that Shaw was a credible love interest and a hotsy-totsy spy.

        That we don’t see that on the screen is one of the reasons that this season is awful.

        But, truly, this is one of the few times that TPTB actually told us their thinking…

      • atcdave says:

        They had to tell us because it wasn’t working onscreen. You all know my bias, there is nothing they could have done to make this story work after Colonel. I think it was poorly executed too, as proven by the large number of people who came to feel the same way I did (I accept many weren’t as hard core as I was at first, but by the end I seemed to have a lot of company).

      • John says:

        I don’t know Dave. It is rare I find a person who liked what happened in Pink Slip at all. I think it is one of the most disliked episodes in the entire series. Casey’s romance with his minigun was the only part I really liked.

        Anyway I find it sort of funny that the rumor is they are on a train to start the back six…we can all pretend they did Pink Slip right and Chuck gets on the train and this whole mess never happened.

  49. Rac2873 says:

    I just watched it again. Sarah chooses Chuck during his speech. Watch her eyes and face. When he says Mexico she raises her eye brows and does this little microsscopic nod. That is the moment she choose. It is so subtle but that is why YS rocks. You need to watch her eyes and face at all times.

    Chuck told her not to say anything so she didn’t. That is why when she got back to the hotel she did not need Casey to plead Chuck’s case. It was uneccessary. Her smile at the end was the confidence that she was not the one responsible for Chuck’s downfall but she did choose him regardless. This just made the choice that much sweeter.

    Also that photo was not photoshopped. That was a real photo taken outside of Roans in seduction.

    • Zsjaer says:

      “It is so subtle but that is why YS rocks. You need to watch her eyes and face at all times.”

      You believe the director told her to do that in that scene, to give us audience that feeling?..i don t buy it..my first thought was she had choose Chuck because of that comment with Casey but i think now that i was wrong..so far what we got in the screen is what is going on so yeah in she was going to DC, she change her mind after her conversation with Casey

      • Rac2873 says:

        If you beleive that she choose Shaw after that speech that Chuck gave and her reaction to him then that is too bad. I have been jaded but never that jaded. If you think she was picking Shaw after Chuck kissed her and she nodded to Mexico then that is your perogative but all everyone on the web wants the writers to spell it out for them. I admit there is reason to be negative and always paint Sarah in a bad light but dam some people never give up.

        When you look at this season go back and look at it like this. Sarah has daddy issues. Her Male role model is her father and Graham. A guy who used her to pull con’s and guy who used her to commit murder. She never has anyone to rely on. She was a bad ass because she didn’t know what love was it was her mask. She was with Bryce but they were more partners in crime than soul mates.

        I am willing to give Sarah the benefit of the doubt. She thought she ruined CHuck and she did not want to be anywhere near him when he killed again. She felt guilty so she was in denial. That convo sealed the deal for her. While Chuck may not be perfect (he killed someone) she can trust him with one thing that she is most scared of, Her heart. The fact that Sarah made a choice to be with Chuck even though he was a killer but because he loved her so was made all that more exciting for Sarah when she realized that she was not repsonsible for Chuck going to the dark side. He was still the man she loved and her instinct was correct. That is why she told Casey it is not necessary. If she chose Shaw she would be like look Casey save it. I am going with Shaw. But she phrased it like you don’t need to say anything Casey. They just dragged it out to give it some emotional kick.

        That is what last night was all about. They being on the same page finally.

      • Zsjaer says:

        @Rac
        “That is what last night was all about. They being on the same page finally.”

        rac but think..why TPTB would made this scene in a dubious way? to make us think? and to analyse Sarah character in a deep way like you just did? Chuck was simple..the emotions were alwasys clear and obvious..why this doubts now? i m not saying you are wrong i don t know for sure either..but if your opinion is the correct one why not letting that clear on the screen? why this choice by TPTB?

    • Paul says:

      Agree. I saw that too when Chuck mentioned Mexico.

      BTW, does anyone find it hilarious that Sarah keeps fake photos of her and CHuck but no real ones…? 😉

      • Ernie Davis says:

        The photo in question seems to be a genuine one. They both have copies of it and it shows up repeatedly throughout season 2 and 3. From what they are wearing it appears it was taken on the trip to Palm Springs in Seduction probably as part of a cover story for Ellie, and so they’d have a real one since at the time they were pretty much indulging in a real relationship in addition to the fake one. Remember they had to break up next episode because Sarah had gotten too close and let her feelings for Chuck dictate her actions more than once.

      • Rac2873 says:

        It is real. That is not photoshopped. It is the same clothes they were wearing when they went to Roan’s.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        Agreed about the Palm Springs photo.

        But they also have a real genuine Chuck-Sarah as “a real couple, just a different kind of real couple” taken by Sarah at the end of Sandworm. And if I’m not mistaken that photo is in Chuck’s locker at work.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Of course Sarah threw a pencil through Chuck’s face in her first copy in Cougars, and as far as I know their only fake couple photo outside of Suburbs was thrown away by Chuck in Sandworm to be replaced by the one Faith mentioned.

        It’s kind of amusing, but if you go to the show’s NBC site they have all the fake photos from Suburbs, and the CIA isn’t very good at that sort of thing from the looks of it.

      • Paul says:

        Actually, the suburbs photos I think were actual photo shoots….at least some of them look that way.

        The reason why I mentioned fake photos is that in the last scene in Cougars, you will see the fake Comicon photo on Sarah’s dresser,

  50. AngelTwo says:

    I’ve looked at the C/S Castle scene and the Casey/Sarah apartment scene very carefully now and examined the screencaps, too. Failing further clarification from TPTB or in e13, you can plausibly state that EITHER interpretation is correct. It is certainly played ambiguously enough. Strahovski gives NOTHING away until Casey’s reveal.

    If you want to take the “she decided in Castle” line, well, you know how it plays: Chuck convinced her and her lack of a smile or joy was simply Sarah knowing she’d chosen the harder path, the emotionally dangerous road with Chuck. Casey’s visit and reveal simply confirmed her choice and made it unambiguously joyful for her.

    But if you WANT to take the other view, I submit:
    1) Sarah knew what was coming. Hence her, “Chuck, you don’t have to…” line as Chuck is about to launch into his ILY declaration.
    2) You can read her “I made a commitment. It’s not just Shaw…” line to mean that she had ALREADY made a commitment to herself to give up Chuck and take a safer, if joyless path, to Washington.
    3) Is she moved by Chuck’s speech? Of course, but her lack of joy in and response to Chuck’s kiss–she is the recipient, not a participant in any way–is her goodbye to Chuck. She agrees to say nothing because she knows this will be the last time she’s going to see Chuck.
    4) Her packing in her apartment is passionless, joyless. She’s probably just clearing out NOW because she knows Chuck will come after her when she doesn’t go to Union Station.
    5) Her line to Casey about not having to plead Chuck’s case is an admission that she loves Chuck. No more. It is not her saying she’s already decided to go with him. It can easily be read to mean that she knows the OTHER choice she’s made regardless of her love for Chuck.
    6) Most tellingly, I think, the music cue–the reprise of Down River that played under Chuck’s declaration in Castle–does not start for Sarah until AFTER Casey’s reveal. The “Go, don’t stop” refrain is NOT played while she is packing.
    7) The fact that she is shown unloading her gun only AFTER Casey’s reveal can easily be read to mean that she’d chosen to go to Washington. After all, why would Sarah take her gun with her if she was going with Chuck BEFORE the Casey reveal? (The obvious statement and exposition TPTB were making with the gun notwithstanding.) If you want to use the “First Date” precedent, then her initial choice to pack the gun meant she was going on a mission, to Shaw and DC. She didn’t choose the “real” life with Chuck, and thus dump the gun, until after Casey.

    Me, I choose to believe that she decided to go with Chuck in Castle. But if you want to say that she didn’t choose until after Casey’s reveal, well, it is an extremely plausible position. Failing to hear from TPTB or get some enlightenment in e13, this may a discussion without a definitive answer.

    • Seb says:

      Most casual viewers I ‘ve spoken to, casual as in the not freeze frame the scene and analyze every frame kind, think she made her decision after Casey spoke to her. Up till then she wasn’t really happy, after Casey spoke is the first time she smiled. Plus the kiss at the end of the ILYs avalanche in castle was pretty dispassionate on Sarah’s part.

      But I agree, they left it vague enough so that you can basically go with whatever floats your boats. Barring any specific mention by Sarah in the finale of course.

    • Gabbo says:

      Good analysis, Angel. I’m with you. I will go with “chose in Castle.” But the other case holds a lot of water. As you say, the music cue is very strong evidence indeed.

      • Zsjaer says:

        I m convinced that TPTB thought that Sarah changing her mind after Casey conversation would be an EPIC moment similar to those we has in S1/2.
        What reasons could they have to make that scene dubious? yeah i think you are right.

    • HenryH says:

      Angel: The music cue may be a tipping point. It’s one of the few times they chopped up a tune like that in such close-to-each-other scenes. In Suburbs, they dragged Freeze and Explode over several scenes, for example. And you could make the case that Down River would have worked over Shaw’s intermediate scene, too. He’s clearly going and not stopping.

      Their not starting Down River until after Casey’s reveal is a very powerful signal. One I hadn’t thought of. And as Seb says, casual viewers thought she decided after Casey’s comments. That’s probably the power of the music cue, too.

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      You make some frighteningly good points, A2. I’ve gone with Sarah decided in Castle in my own mind since Monday night, but, boy, the case you lay out is compelling. The music bed thing is a big, big point. Almost enough to make me change my mind, in fact.

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        BTW, was I the only one who saw Strahovski give an unhappy face after Beckman says she looks forward to working with her in Washington? It was clear, if nothing else, Sarah was NOT relishing going to Washington. Dunno if we’re supposed to mean that we should assume Sarah was open to what Chuck was about to pitch or that she was still commited to going unhappily to Washington even after Chuck saved the day.

        And couldn’t you ALSO make the case that there shouldn’t have been any NEED to have Chuck make a pitch? I know that would have eliminated the final big deal Chuck moment, but, jeez, when you think about it…

      • Seb says:

        I have a better question for you BeCoolBoy. Considering that scene is a pivotal scene within the main storyline we ‘ve had to suffer through this season (apologies for those that enjoyed the “romance” storyline, I didn’t so I generalize) … Should it have been an ambigious scene?

        I mean they made the lead female character make a decision. Should there be ambiguity with regards to what led her to make the decision?

    • Crumby says:

      About the music-

      I also had noticed that it only comes back when Casey tells her.
      BUT when she’s packing there’s still this weird ring music playing, until she opens the door. Possibly so that we can think it’s Shaw behind the door.
      So that could explain why the music didn’t begin earlier in the scene.
      Just a thought.

    • JC says:

      Watching it again, I think the Casey scene was the equivalent to the Ellie/Chuck conversation earlier. The last kick to show them, they were making the right choice about each other.

      As for the quick packing Chuck made it clear he wasn’t going to try and talk her into it. If she didn’t show he was moving on.

      The unnecessary line, Casey has no idea he asked her to run but she doesn’t know that. So when he told her Bartowski didn’t send him, she gets this confused look on her face.

      The music cue to me was more that she had made the right decision to run. Casey just confirmed it.

      The one thing though is we’re all assuming this was the pivotal scene, I don’t think it was.

  51. Paul says:

    Both scenarios are plausible and believeable.

    • ChuckNewbie8 says:

      Agreed. I think in this instance no matter what anyone uses to prove their point, no one changes their opinion. I for one am on the “she was definitely going to Chuck” view. If for nothing else than if Chuck was in the hospital recovering she’d have been at his bedside, no shower, no changing clothes, brushing her hair, packing or any assorted activities.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Any shipper would agree with you, Faith. And I’m a shipper. But you KNOW what TPTB would have done with that, right? They’d have had Chuck and Shaw injured and both in the same room. And Sarah in a chair between the beds…

        So don’t give them any ideas… 🙂

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        no picture frame! 😀

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I sort of assumed she was going with Chuck. If Shaw was unconscious in the hospital they clearly wouldn’t be leaving any time soon, so there’d be no hurry to pack. Plus as we’ve seen when Sarah has “left” before she’s a notoriously light traveler. Then again, she changed from her rather casual attire to a dress after Casey told her the story. A case can be made either way.

        And this is one of the problems this season. They’re used to shooting ambiguous scenes and letting the viewer read into them, but in cases where a characters emotional state or state of mind are crucial to the story they need to be a bit more overt in letting us know. Otherwise the habits of two seasons of reading into a scene our own conclusions makes the story seem like nonsense when it takes the turn they were expecting but we weren’t. Last 10 minutes of Mask anyone? If they’d set up the fact that Chuck and Sarah weren’t going to clean up the mess but had indeed decided to keep things at the level of friends more explicitly Chuck moving on and Sarah reluctantly following suit would not have seemed so unexpected.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        Hey so long as she’s clutching the picture frame…I know what I’ll be thinking HAHA.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I’m with you Faith. The obvious framing of the picture of Chuck and Sarah was (to me) a clear signal. I always thought the pictures were a pretty important visual cue. Think of it this way, Sarah has lived in a hotel room for three years. In all that time, and all the scenes we’ve seen I don’t recall ever seeing a single personal item other than her picture of Chuck. And if her room wasn’t part of the cover (a bit of a stretch that yogurt girl lives there) there’d be no reason for it. Especially now that she’s not even cover dating Chuck.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Ernie-
        Do you think TPTB want us to think that the picture still being there was how Shaw figured out that Sarah was still in love with Chuck? After all, she denied it to him in First Class. But he knew about it in Final Exam and Sarah didn’t deny it, just said “not anymore.”

        Otherwise, how did Poochie find out?

      • amyabn says:

        I really thought that when Sarah was reaching into her bag she was going to pull out the bracelet. Yeah, I’m a sucker, but I thought that would be nice icing on the cake. She could have put it on and then thrown the gun on the bed.

        Didn’t really like Shaw busting in like he did. He looked straight up psycho!

      • herder says:

        Amy, I think that the bracelet makes a return, hopefully this monday. It seems to be one of Sarah’s treasured items and I can’t see her leaving it behind so my guess is that it was packed and is with her as she leaves.

  52. sd says:

    I am of the mind that Sarah agreed to go with Chuck in castle which–in her mind–meant dragging the baggage of the red test behind her. To extend the unfortunate metaphor…Casey–like a good bell man–grabbed those bags for her…hence the joy and cueing of the joyful moment in the song…go–don’t stop.

    As for the kiss between C/S in Castle…yes, it may have seemed less passionate on her part…but I beg to differ. There was longing and history in that kiss…and decisions that had to be made on her part…safe and souless in DC or something else with Chuck.

    • AngelTwo says:

      I don’t think it’s an unfortunately metaphor, SD. It was THE metaphor of the pilot: Chuck offering to be Sarah’s personal baggage handler. I wonder if we’ll hear about that line somewhere before the end of e13.

      And as I said to Faith, I’m a shipper. I’m going with “chose in Castle” for myself. But I don’t know if TPTB gave us that unconditionally.

      • sd says:

        But, AngelTwo, has Sarah actually dumped any baggage on him? I think his heavy lifting has come trying to figure her out–read between the lines–and sometimes, failing…much to the viewer’s chagrin.

        As we’ve seen–painfully–she was more forthright with Shaw than during three years with Chuck.

        Not to beat a dead horse…I think instead of PLIs…the joy and discomfort in figuring–and sorting—each other out would have been far more rich and interesting. Maybe that’s what we will begin to get moving past 3.12

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        One more thing to add…Casey comes in to the apt, looks around like he already knows the deal. Last comment he made, “Have a nice life Walker” he looks right at the suitcase on the bed–and said it with a smile.

      • DaveB says:

        That wasn’t a smile…That was a smirk…

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        well Casey never smiles…to him a smirk is an equivalent of a smile 🙂

        Now a grunt…is equivalent to a put down.

      • DaveB says:

        He has questioning grunts, too…

    • DaveB says:

      She leaned in to that kiss…So it wasn’t exactly one sided.

      • Crumby says:

        Yeah I’m with you one that one DaveB.

      • Jason says:

        she was ‘torn’ from what I could tell, she seemed to move her arms toward him low, maybe getting a little chuck butt, but the linger at the end when she sort of raised up, chuck could have gotten way past first base then and there – but the way this season has gone & she still looked very unhappy – who knows

  53. atcdave says:

    I’m in the decided in Castle camp, Casey just made it easier for her to be happy/certain about it. I do think there is a good possibility we’ll get a definative answer at some point. Not sure why I think that, we often get painfully little information on this show; but I do suspect at some point, we will get a lot of information dumped on us at once.

  54. Jason says:

    i don’t think she was going to go b4 casey – she was determined to go to DC – if anything, she has proven to be VERY stuborn season 3, I see why you all wanted her to decide b4 then I did too and I see the reasons for hoping the answer was yes, but she simply was not acting in a hurry at all while packing, and the FIRST time all season 12 episodes we really saw her happy was when casey told her, lasted for all of about 5 seconds of screen time until the grim reaper kncoked – been a hard season to be a fan of sarah walker, hence a fan of the show chuck, these writers have so kicked her butt all over the place this season, really is too bad, but what can you do?

  55. Rac2873 says:

    I think we all misunderstand Sarah becuase we cannot fathom how she is feeling.

    We have to put ourselves in her shoes in order to understand her. We cannot understand her actions because we don’t have the same issues hangups and experiences she does.

    I finally get that now. She has been dissapointed her whole life. Chuck dissapointing her was the last straw. That was why she was so standoffish. It was not only her double standard but it was rock bottom for her watching her love become another murderer.

    Also we think Chuck telling her he loves her is like ho hum. But we all take the word “love for granted” How many times has Sarah heard that word in her life. I would have to say not much. We don’t know anything about her mother. If she died during Child Birth then she could have never heard the words before. So S3 ILY’s really hit home. She even thought that Chuck did not love her in Pink Slip because he left her. She has a hard time trusting people. I hear the word all the
    time but imagine going through life and being disappointed in everyone and never having someone tell you they love you. That is very tragic. My heart breaks for Sarah. She never had an Ellie to pick her up dust her off tell her she was proud of her and most importantly tell her
    that she was loved.

    S3 is a tragic figure and now we get to see her happy for once in her life. I say bring it on.

    • Gabbo says:

      Rac: Boy, I don’t get that anyone HERE doesn’t understand Sarah’s pain. It’s why I was attracted to this blog in the first place when I found it last week.

      Read Ernie Davis and Liz James’ posts about Sarah. The abandonment issues and Sarah’s emotional decisions were all they were writing about in the months before Season 3 started.

      And that’s why, like them, I think Season 3 starts badly and inexplicably with Chuck walking away without talking to Sarah or trying to convince her to make another decision on the platform in Prague. That is NOT how Chuck would have done it.

      And no matter how many times they’ve come back to Prague (twice now in the last two episodes), TPTB don’t seem to understand that we do not accept Chuck’s action on the platform as valid or remotely in character. That’s why the whole season is a fail. It proceeds from a phony premise: That Chuck would simply walk away from Sarah. Chuck would NEVER simply walk away from Sarah and everyone but the show runners seem to understand that.

      As for the red test, well, the problem there with understanding Sarah’s position is that TPTB themselves haven’t really been clear about it. We get they are going for trauma, but her actions toward Chuck (forcing him into it, then blaming him for doing it, then never talking to him about her own feelings) are, even by Sarah’s past history, inexplicable.

      A couple of people here have recently mentioned the first kiss moment in Hard Salami. I went back and looked at it and, wow!, just wow. Inadvertantly, of course, Chuck becomes the one thing that Sarah was always looking for in a man: Someone who wouldn’t run from her when things got tough. Someone who chose her no matter the circumstances.

      The longer this show goes on, that may be its best moment. Unless, of course, they pull off something INCREDIBLE in e13.

      The Chuck we believe in would NEVER abandon Sarah like that in Prague and that’s what has been wrong all Season. It’s not, to quote Sarah on the platform, real…

  56. DaveB says:

    What do people think of the line Casey said: “Have a nice life.”? He was hoping Chuck would get with Sarah so he could go to Rome with them…But from what he said, it sounded like he knew that he wouldn’t be seeing Sarah again…

    • Jason says:

      I read that casey knows chuck is not a spy, hence casey knows sarah and chuck will have to run? – hence have a nice life (with chuck) walker – casey saw sarah’s smile & knew what the thank you meant – don’t you think????

    • DaveB says:

      One could have a lot of fun with the scene with Casey, actually. For one thing: “He’s not a killer, not like us” with a focus on his face. The emphasis seemed to me that Casey was impressing on Sarah how different she was from Chuck…And was she ready to deal with that…Hence, dropping the gun on the bed.

      I’m not sure if Casey is assuming Sarah is going to run away with Chuck. But, between the two of them, Casey is the only one who knows that Chuck’s choices are to be a spy or die.

      • Merve says:

        That “not like us” line from Casey really bothered me. I know and understand that Casey’s perception is that Sarah = killer, Chuck = not killer, but the problem is that what we see on the screen is a little less black and white than that. Of course, a character like Casey, who is a man of few words, wouldn’t elaborate much on the subject, but the manner in which the scene is written makes Casey look like an objective observer, which he is not. Sarah is not, in absolute terms, “a killer.”

        To be fair, maybe that line bothered me because just last week he told Chuck, “you’re not a killer.” I feel as if through Casey, TPTB are telling me how I should perceive Chuck and Sarah, and that bothers me. I can see how they are on-screen without another character telling me what their ‘true’ natures are.

      • josh says:

        That “not like us” line is obviously a setup for 13. Either Eve Shaw is still alive (therefore Sarah has been working under the false assumption she assassinated her blah blah) or Chuck kills somebody in 13.

      • JLR says:

        Yeah, I’m thinking that lien means something like that. But who knows? There have been many throw-away lines & plot points….It’s difficult determining what’s “important” & what isn’t

      • Merve says:

        I think that if that line is setup for anything, Chuck won’t be killing anyone until at least the back six. (It’s a good reason for him to go see a shrink.) I think that Sarah might kill to save Chuck’s life in the next episode.

      • joe says:

        Merve, you’re quite right. Sarah has killed, but she is not a killer. That’s the reason she’s been asking about “normal life” for 3 seasons now, first with Carina, then with Casey, and even with Shaw in The Fake Name. It’s like she’s having an allergic reaction.

    • HenryH says:

      DaveB, I wonder if Casey’s “killers like us” line won’t be where e13 is partially going. I can’t accept that Chuck offs Shaw, thus creating balance for Sarah’s red test. I somehow think we’ll find that, like Chuck, Sarah didn’t kill on her red test.

      That’ll allow Chuck to tell Sarah that’s she’s not a lost person.

      Meanwhile, we KNOW Casey is a killer. He’s proud of it. And at least up until this season, Sarah had sort of been positioned as a violence-as-the-last-option kind of spy.

      • weaselone says:

        She’s still a killer due to everything she has done after her first kill. So what if she failed her initial red test? She’s passed 100s of them since then.

      • HenryH says:

        Weaselone-
        I didn’t say not a killer, I said not a lost person. Sarah has obsessed on her Red Test, not anything else. Just sayin’.

        Doesn’t make a lot of sense, but what does this season?

    • Paul says:

      Well look at it from his perspective at the time: Chuck is assembling a team to go to Rome. Chuck has chosen Sarah to be on the team. Casey is now a civilian and not going anywhere. Once Sarah leaves LA, she is not going to come back, lest she jeapordize her cover. Whether C/S run or go to Rome, he’s not going to see them again. Or so he thinks… 😀

  57. sd says:

    For the better part of Shaw’s involvement in Season 3…we have talked about Shaw being “wooden”…etc. I kinda thought it was bad acting/bad writing.

    OMG…and then someone in an earlier post mentioned the Manchurian Candidate (the lead character’s last name is Shaw). How about the phone call Shaw recieved that seemed to “activate” him at the end of 3.12.

    Could it be…could it possibly be the Shaw character is homage to the Manchurian Candidate all along????

    I don’t know….I just know the TPTB love their “call backs” and “shout outs”.

    • atcdave says:

      SD, if that proves to be the case, I think we’ll see Shaw somehow overcome and die a heroic death. I kind of think that’s too sophisticated for this show, apart from a little homage with the name. I still think the “Shaw is nuts, Sarah will have to shoot him” is still more likely; but I could see Manchurian Candidate scenario playing out too.

      • sd says:

        True, atcdave…these are folks who dig 80’s “B” spy movies…not that there is anything wrong with that 🙂

        I am waiting for C/S/C to get injected into a bad guy’s body ala Innerspace….maybe season 11?

    • josh says:

      That theory has been floating a round for a few weeks, based on the Shaw name (which was the name of the character in the movies) and BRs rather wooden, robot like, demeanor. It’s possible but I m not sure a reveal within a single episode with 3 other stories running would work for them. I mean it isn’t something they can refer to offhand, they will need to spend sometime explaining the premise to the proverbial casual viewer.

  58. Waverly says:

    I come back after a day, and wow. Is this an all-time record for number of comments on a single post?

    Clearly the increased interest in Chuck over the past couple of months must reflect the popularity of the show. At least among us geeks and nerds.

    • joe says:

      Yes, it is a record.
      The way it’s going, Waverly, that’ll last about half a week. 😉

    • atcdave says:

      I think our traffic was actually down as the ratings faded on 3.10 and 3.11; but interest seems to be rebounding. Hopefully that will be reflected in the ratings.

      • John says:

        I hope the ratings do bounce back, the show gets renewed, and TPTB realize that their little angst reset button nearly killed the show and ending it saved it.

      • atcdave says:

        Amen John, let’s hope they never go that way again.

    • herder says:

      I do know that this last episode made me look forward to the next optimistically which isn’t something that I can say for much of the season.

      That being said, 350 posts on one topic says that I’m not the only one feeling that way.

  59. Gord says:

    I know I’m a little late getting around to this blog, but I do want to say that I was a little more than pleasantly surprised by this episode.

    Based on the promos I saw, I was not really looking forward to this episode. I thought they were going to stretch the flip-flop Sarah out for another episode and I was sick of that Sarah.

    I was also worried that if they rushed Chuck and Sarah together it would be done very sloppily. However, I thought that it was done with such intensity and so perfectly that although rushed it felt natural.

    I believe Sarah was Chuck’s before he even said ILY. I do think Sarah was a little hesitant about trying to run away again, but when she was packing I know it was to be with Chuck. What Casey said, just made her decision that much easier on her.

    Tonight I watched the episode again on the Space Channel (Canada’s Sci Fi network) and started thinking her tossing the gun on the bed was an after thought – her thinking “I don’t need this”. It reminded me of First Date where she looks at the gun on the dresser and decides you don’t bring a gun on a real date. I have a feeling that this time, just like last time she is going to regret not having that gun with her.

    • atcdave says:

      I really agree about the ambivilance going into 3.12; but it turned into something great. Hopefully now, they’ve got their mojo back!

  60. AngelTwo says:

    And the hypocrite watch continues: Now the inevitable and unavoidable Old Darth suddenly concludes in his review of E12 that maybe that Shaw-Sarah arc didn’t quite work.

    So now ALL of the kneejerk defenders–the Darths, Sepinwall, etc.–have suddenly decided, gee, that PLI crap didn’t work after all.

    Gee, if only WE had thought of that! Imagine if any of us were smart enough to suggest that there was something wrong.

    If only we were as smart as the Chosen Defenders of the True Chuck Faith.

    • atcdave says:

      You know I’ve agreed with most of your posts Angeltwo. We certainly want the same sort of things from the show and see the same sort of problems. But I’m glad many are now coming around to our point of view. It suggests, if we are lucky enough to get a S4, they are less likely to repeat these same mistakes. The show was brilliant in S1 and S2, maybe there’s a chance of getting back to the show’s strengths. It also gives me hope that future writers of future shows will have a concrete case study of what can go wrong when you mess with a good formula.

      • AngelTwo says:

        atc dave: I think the only thing we disagree on is whether this show can rebound. I honestly don’t think it can.

        Some of it is budget. It’s clearly taken a larger toll that TPTB seem willing to admit.

        But I also don’t think TPTB can rebound because they can’t accept that they made any mistakes. From Fedak’s “how dare you stop watching in the middle” to Schwartz’s “we’re further along in the story than you,” there continues to be denial.

        it will be interesting to see if the final 7 are happier shows and the ratings move upward along with the happy quotient how TPTB will spin it. These guys even deny the reality of the ratings, which, of course, is a fatal flaw for anyone hoping to continue producing a show.

        So much great fan support, so much great acting, so much opportunity frittered away by arrogance. Sad, really.

      • atcdave says:

        I sure do agree about what a horribly wasted opportunity this season was. In season two, I had an easy time exciting people I could get to sit still and watch an episode. It was so well done, the show’s biggest problem was just the limited exposure from NBC (network viewership and poor advertising both). This season started so strong then slipped every week as we saw one downer ending after another.

        But I guess I have hope on two counts. First, I think TPTB may get it. I wish they would come clean, but I’ll settle for better shows; and it sounds like we may get some with the next seven. If they can finish strong, I’m ready to forgive (that doesn’t mean I’ll ever rewatch SIX episodes from this season, including the one airing on 4/12). Second, the ratings were already up last week. Even though the previews weren’t great, they at least made it clear the Shaw arc was coming to an end. If numbers can start a gradual rebound, it might be good enough by NBCs standards.

      • Crumby says:

        A lot of things have been wrong about this season and a lot has been written about that. I completely agreed with all the critics that were made here way before the reviewers. Yes the premise of Chuck leaving Sarah behind in Prague was wrong. Yes it was bad handled. Yes the PLIs were unnecessary and awful. Yes the ring is ridiculous. Yes super spy Shaw is a total failure. Yes they seriously damaged Sarah’s character. Yes there is so many plot holes. And I think I’m gonna stop here because we’ve already talked about all those things.

        But there were also things in the last few episodes that I enjoyed. A lot.

        I loved season 2, but there was one thing that really annoyed me in it, and it was the Buy More. It was way over the top for my taste in lot of episodes. Don’t get me wrong, I love Morgan, Jeffster and co, but it was just too much for me. Lately I am really enjoying it. I know the reduced Buy More time is about budget, but I think it was a good thing. The scenes are more relevant. The Buy More story is well mixed with the spy story. I like that.

        Since Morgan knows Chuck’s secret, I find him hilarious! And when Awesome tended to be all whiny and annoying before, he is now way more likeable. And everybody having Chuck’s back spare us the annoying Ellie’s concerns.

        The last episode had really great comedy scenes. The “return from jail” scene is amazing, I’ve scene it way too many times already, but I can’t stop laughing.

        Chuck has been great since his epiphany. Great brother, great friend, great lover. I like how he’s grown and who he is now. Casey is great too. I just hope, he’s not too “nice” now. Being a shipper and all… lol. I kind of miss seeing him kicking butt.

        So if the comedy is coming back, the angst’s done, the PLIs gone, the story well balanced between Buy More and spy life, I have hope.
        They just really need to give us Sarah Walker back now.

    • JLR says:

      So….I’m confused. Does that mean all the self-appointed defenders of TPTB are also “crazy shippers”? Or does that label only attach to those of us who dared to complain when we smelled a rat early on & had the gall to voice our opinions?

    • herder says:

      I think that many allowed their faith in the writers and the tendancy to have a sudden a-ha moment that explains everything to wait until the end to cast judgement. I think that many of those expressing this sudden sentiment that the Sarah/Shaw thing didn’t work spent much of the time refusing to beleive that what they saw was what was going on.

      When there wasn’t some sort of over arching explanation then they gave their judgement. I don’t see that as unecessarily bad, just over trusting in JS and CF. Others just called it as they see it. Personally for the longest time I beleived that there must be some other reason for what I was seeing. Based on the spoilers and synopises I, at various times thought that things would be resolved by Fake Name, the Beard, Tic Tac, suddenly I realized that they were going to drag it out until the bitter end, that and the fact that while they were doing it it seemed to be pushing things too far and there were too many downer moments at the end of episodes.

      That being said, I can’t fault those who had more faith in the writers than I did, I can say that faith was misplaced and abused by TPTB, but I can’t really fault those who had the it.

      • Crumby says:

        I agree with you herder. I hoped for a long time that there were explanation for what we were seeing. But I’ve always understood people’s problem about the season.

        My concern now is that the ratings are back and reviewers are gonna tell us about all the things that were wrong this season during the 2 weeks off between 313 and 314. This is not gonna help the show. It’s not the time to talked about what was wrong now, but give hope and be optimistic.

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      I’d disagree here only in the sense that ANY reviewer has the responsibility to tell us whether they are being entertained by the episode they are CURRENTLY watching. You can’t as a reviewer say, Well, this doesn’t make sense but I’m sure the writer has a point that they’ll get to weeks down the line.

      Moreover, it’s not just that suddenly they are changing their tune. These are the same people who claimed we were idiots for not seeing the brilliance of TPTB each and every week.

      So it wasn’t just that they were clearly not enjoying what they claimed to be enjoying, they were trying to shout us down when we were stating honestly what we felt.

      • atcdave says:

        I agree, that part annoys me a bit. I do resent that so many were belittled or made to look like idiots for not seeing the “brilliance” of the writers. We’ve had a steady stream of participants here who had felt disrespected on other sites; that isn’t right.

        But I really prefer to take satisfaction that so many are now coming around. Especially now, we’re all the same team as we try to generate excitement leading into the renewal push.

    • OldDarth says:

      ‘And the hypocrite watch continues: Now the inevitable and unavoidable Old Darth suddenly concludes in his review of E12 that maybe that Shaw-Sarah arc didn’t quite work. ‘

      BULLSHIT!

      As I said in my review, I let the story thread play out before passing judgment.

      What I did not do was prejudge.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        OD, I think you are missing the source of the anger, and it is not directed solely at you. Sepinwall and others come in for a lot of it too. The point I’ve tried to make repeatedly is that if you want to hold or build an audience you can’t rely on making episodes work retroactively. There has to be some movement or payoff each week to keep people invested and interested enough to keep coming back to see the big a-ha moment. This is where the execution failed, and this is what I’ve been trying to tell everyone, including you, since before this season started. Forget concept, the execution is ALL that matters when it comes down to it. Yes, I feel a little vindicated, I’m not going to lie.

        So the anger part is that Fedak, and others were continually saying you have to wait for the whole story to become clear, then you’ll understand and like it, while a large part of the general public and the dedicated fanbase was saying no, we don’t and tuning out. About the only honest professional critic out there was Mo Ryan who basically said yeah, it isn’t working, but it gets good again. But she had the decency to say it to the fans when they needed to hear it. In glossing over the problems many critics, for whatever reason they felt the need to withhold judgment, led fans to feel they abused the trust of their readers. This is made worse by the seeming turnaround when they admit that no, it didn’t work.

        Now I’m afraid I can’t speak directly to what you might have posted or written elsewhere. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to keep up outside this site. I don’t think it is personal so much as disappointment that someone they counted on for insight seems to have failed them when they needed to be re-assured that no, they weren’t crazy, this wasn’t very good TV. And it isn’t pre-judging to say this episode or that didn’t work, or that the direction the story is presently taking is not particularly compelling or enjoyable. It’s just an honest opinion.

      • OldDarth says:

        “OD, I think you are missing the source of the anger”

        I get where the issue of anger lies. What I don’t appreciate is the name calling ie – hypocrite.

        As a reviewer it is my position to give the creators the courtesy of allowing them to present to completion their works before rendering a verdict.

        My reviews concentrated on episode specific points. When the first 13 have aired, a retrospective review of them will be done. Then will season arc issues be evaluated including, but not restricted to, PLIs.

        We can agree to disagree. Let’s drop the personal insults.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        OD, I didn’t think I insulted you personally, if I did it was not intentional and I apologize. And for the record I don’t think it is constructive to call out individuals for personal motives, feelings, or with charges such as hypocrite. I’ve written on this repeatedly, so I’ll let that stand for itself.

        We apparently have different views on what a reviewer or a critic owes the readers and the creators, and on that I agree to disagree. But if you at some point start to dismiss the legitimate criticisms of readers or appear to defend the decisions of the creators, as I’d seen Sepinwall do, then, upon rendering judgment that has supposedly, but not really been reserved, the charge of hypocrite can hardly be surprising, justified or not. Reserving or dismissing the negatives, even temporarily and highlighting the positives is not neutral. And at some point it starts to look like endorsement.

        As I said, I haven’t been able to read your stuff lately, and correct me if I’m wrong, but given our past exchanges I wouldn’t be surprised if, in your attempt to reserve judgment as you say, you came off to some readers as defending TPTB and dismissing some legitimate criticisms you thought were premature. I think it’s pretty hard to do a weekly review and remain totally neutral, or at least to be perceived as neutral.

      • weaselone says:

        Honestly, OD I would never group you in with those deserving of this criticism or refer to you as a hypocrite. You’ve generally spoken your mind when you saw something particularly atrocious and you’ve been far more courteous to the detractors than many. The biggest difference between you and many of those on this site is you continued to give the writers and producers the benefit of the doubt. There’s nothing wrong with that and you certainly don’t deserve to be taken to the woodshed for having a little faith.

        On the flip side, you have a large group of critics and fans who may have wihtheld criticism of the show due to their unassailable faith in the show’s producers and writers who decided to repeatedly excoriate another group of fans for their lack of faith. Everyone who didn’t like aspects of this season, even those who could care less whether Chuck and Sarah ever did the horizontal mambo where grouped together as”crazy f’in shippers.

        “Crazy f’in shippers” weren’t real fans. They were emotionally and mentally defective. They lacked the depth to analyze the show. They had massive senses of entitlement. They were ruining Chuck. They were going to cause Chuck to be canceled. They didn’t respect creative license. They weren’t important enough to be concerned with. The were petty, insufferable and insatiable complainers.

        So when it turns out that said fans and critics actually had the same concerns as the “crazy f’in shippers”, but opted to engage in a concerted campaign of shipper bashing that included an article in the associated press, anger and charges of hypocrisy are an understandable if albeit unfortunate reaction.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Weaselone, I’ll agree with most of the substance of your post with one caveat. The worst of those fans and critics, who will remain unnamed but do not participate here, should not only expect some backlash, but deserve it, distasteful as that sentiment may sound. You reap what you sow, plain and simple.

        It is unfortunate in OD’s case that someone, who in my experience, has not engaged in that type of behavior with perhaps a minor lapse or two is going to be lumped in with some of them by association.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Ernie–
        I have great respect for your thoughts, even when I disagree. I have great respect for almost everyone’s thoughts.

        However, allow me these points:
        1) I have posted EVERY gosh-I-changed-my-mind review I have found since Monday’s broadcast. And I used the same word, hypocrite, to characterize the reviews. So I am NOT singling out Old Darth.

        2) I do not even understand what is wrong with the word hypocrite. I am characterizing the person’s actions, not making a judgment about their personal worth or anything else. I know nothing about Old Darth, care nothing about Old Darth. This is a judgment on his behavior in the role of critic.

        3) If you’d like an example of interperate writing, I submit this, from Old Darth’s Twitter page:

        Hitting 1st worked for Sarah vs Fitzroy. ; ) RT @SerendipityWAF: @JessicaSisk @happydayz3 punch people don’t watch Chuck: should ask 1st
        2:25 PM Mar 16th via TweetDeck Grr! RT @JessicaSisk: @happydayz3 The ratings make me scowl. The show is so good, I could punch someone.
        12:55 PM Mar 16th via TweetDeck

        So, please, the false outrage from him is silly while he’s telling people he wants to punch people who don’t agree with him about a television show. Even in jest, that is unacceptable.

        3) As other posters have noted (see Gabbo below, especially), Old Darth hasn’t just acted as a (bad) critic. He’s tried to police the fans by wishing away anyone who didn’t agree with him. And his justification was that there were thousands of fans waiting to replace them. In other words, Old Darth is not just a hypocrite, he doesn’t want to hear opposing views AND he’s not all that savvy about the size of Chuck’s potential viewership.

        4) He’s transparently a defender of TPTB, not an honest broker by any means. Others here in recent days pointed out his posts when he was monitoring the ChuckTV.net board in regard to Nacho Sampler. So I went to look. And you can LITERALLY see him working to convince himself it was a great episode. He started disliking it, but tailored his views to the crowd when he found himself out of that mainstream.

        I’m no fan of Season 3. But I have great respect for anyone who ANYWHERE says they like the show. For them, I am happy because they have been entertained.

        But I DO NOT accept nor will I listen to the Old Darths of the world, who claim it is their way or the highway, ridicule the dissent of others–and then claim foul when they make a U-turn on their own highway and get ticketed for it.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        A2, all legitimate points, and you are welcome to air them. I guess I should have been more clear. I post and read here pretty much exclusively because the things you mention have not, for the most part, leaked into our discussions from outside our community here. Naive as I may be I’d like to try and keep it that way. And I don’t want to be a scold, but I do want to make my discomfort at the direction some conversations known. Like it or not hypocrisy has lately been elevated to a moral failing in public discourse and it’s use as a label is usually in that vein.

      • Lucian says:

        OD – I have always appreciated your insights, even when I disagreed. In particular, I recall last fall as the spoilers were coming out about PLIs and fans were mostly saying “here they go again”; you said, in essence, “trust the characters”. I thought that was really good advice. Needless to say, I have been disappointed this season by the level of OOC behavior on the part of our favorite couple. So much of this season felt like angst for the sake of angst, and had little to do with good storytelling. Your review of the Mask was, IMO, absolutely brilliant. Thanks!

      • AngelTwo says:

        Ernie-
        WIthout meaning to prolong this, I do still have one question: Why does Old Darth have the right to bash his critics, excoriate anyone who questions his claims, ridicule others, etc.–but then get protection when ANYONE challenges him? And I am talking HERE, on this particular blog.

        Why does he rate an almost-Sarah-like Double Standard? Why is he above criticism? Why are his about-faces excused?

        I’m not asking to be confrontational, honest. I’m asking because it seems so patently transparent that he rates special treatment and special protection. And whenever anyone calls him on this, it’s only THEN that the civility of this blog is suddenly at risk.

        As I say, the double standard is quite distressing…

      • Ernie Davis says:

        A2, a legitimate question. In my recent experience, allowing for an unfortunate incident already discussed, Old Darth has respected the tone of this board on this board, as we all have. I am not interested in importing arguments that have largely been conducted in other forums with a less civil tone. True OD did respond to a criticism of his work on this board, thus inviting a discussion. My reply was largely to respond to the substance but hopefully keep it civil. I don’t think I protected him any more than I have protested what I thought were unfair characterizations of Schwartz and Fedak’s temperaments or character.

        I will add that I thought OD’s expletive unnecessary, and also not in keeping up with the tone of the board, and perhaps I was remiss in not noting that at the time but I thought it directed more at the notion that he was a hypocrite than at a poster personally. I understand in retrospect how it may not have been the case or may not have been perceived that way. Aside from that you need to go back to mid January for the last time we had one of these brew-has, so I consider those past history.

      • Zsjaer says:

        Its a fact i do have the feeling OD can not be impartial in what concerns TPTB. I was sure of that after reading one of his speculations about Fake name..
        I had since the begin this feeling that the storyline was awful..i wanted to believe him but the fact is no matter how many times he kept saying that this was a good story the feeling was always there. So he`s mission if he had one was quite impossible and useless
        But he always was respectful at least in NBC forum and here.

      • atcdave says:

        I would add Angeltwo, we have tried to prevent personal attacks against any user here. I know we missed a couple. In fact, I remember our first “spat” on the site resulted in some hurt feelings; and none of us did anything at all. Perhaps that’s where your feeling of a double standard comes from. But we have discussed with each other since then, and we mean to keep this site civil. We will defend the rights of any poster to express an honest opinion related to the show, but will consider removing posts when someone crosses the line into personal insults. There is a bit of a judgement call there, but I’ve generally been pleased with the overall tone. If you really feel personally attacked, and none of us acted on it, please let us know. As fast as discussions go here, it is easy for us to miss things, and old comments get pushed to the back of the line very quickly. But please believe me, your opinions are very highly valued, and we never want you, or any other poster, to feel disrespected here.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Ernie/Dave-
        Oh, no, I don’t feel attacked at all. I was just noting that the rules do seem different for Old Darth. And, I guess, I just don’t find the word “hypocrite” to be an attack, but a statement of condition.

        Besides, I think the discussion has been quite valuable. I think it shows the kind of mindset at work with certain see-no-evil fans of the show.

        I note there is no negative term for the see-no-evil fans. Only a derogatory term for folks like us who’ve been troubled by the direction of the show this year. So I think it’s self-evident now the state of things.

        I truly appreciate your allowing me to pose the query and your taking the time to answer.

      • atcdave says:

        I think it just means our side is nicer!

  61. OldDarth says:

    I will further add that the PLIs in concept were fine. It was the execution where the issue lies.

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      So’s chocolate. Just not three meals a day of it. It doesn’t matter how good the chocolate is, you’ll dislike it by dinner.

      • Waverly says:

        I can state from personal experience that chocolate all day long is just fine with me.

        But maybe I’m unusual in that respect.

        Maybe I should try it again and see if I have the same reaction….

  62. Gabbo says:

    Since I’m new to this blog–although I’ve been with Chuck LIVE since the pilot–I guess this is fresher in my mind than most. This Old Darth person is the one who attacked people who said they’d be unhappy with the show and might stop watching if they didn’t like the story line. He further stated that he wanted these people to go away because there were thousands of fans waiting to take their place.

    And when some other poster criticized his cavilier approach, he attacked the poster.

    Needless to say, based on the ratings, those people DID leave when the stories were awful. And none of Old Darth’s masses of new fans appeared.

    So my question is much easier than the Talmudic discussion on the responsibilities of a critic: Why would anyone listen to someone who is so arrogant that he was wishing away fans from a show that has lived its entire life on the bubble?

    • JLR says:

      The fact is, people like OD do have quite a bit of knowledge about the show. You can disagree w/ his opinion, but I think it’s fair to say he’s been there for the long haul too.

      Could I do w/ a bit less “attitude”? Sure… That’s why I no longer post anywhere (not b/c of OD specifically). The fanboys out there love to parrot what OD & like-minded “critics”, “reviewers” or “friends of the show” say. In fact, I bet there are hearts breaking all across the globe with the “reveal” that some of these hard-line, pro-TPTB people actually have had issues with the show all season. But, of course, those people are on the fringe.

      I’ve had great discussions w/ people all over the place who like S3 just fine. I’ve got no problem w/ someone saying they “love” S3 w/out any reservations. What I have problems w/ are the in-vogue diatribes & ad hominem attacks on anyone who voices an opinion not in harmony w/ TPTB’s final product. And yeah, no offense to OD, but there is a bit of hypocrisy involved. He doesn’t want to be called names (which is understandable), yet I and many others have been subjected to much worse: the label of “crazy shipper” rings loudly; I’ve seen posts on DR’s blog & in other forums stating a desire to “punch shippers in the face.” I never heard OD calling for a stop to that…. There’s more I’d like to say, and I would gladly say it were I face-to-face w/ certain posters/reviewers who have, in my mind, insulted me, but out of respect for Joe, Amy, Ernie & Dave, I won’t.

    • Ernie Davis says:

      I’ll reiterate one last time that I don’t think name calling is constructive, but with the caveat that those who put themselves forward as professionals, authorities or leaders of a community are going to have to come to terms with it to some extent.

      We don’t censor here because we’ve always been able to rely on our readers and posters to remain civil. Many of our readers are here for precisely that reason, they could post opinions here and get a respectful hearing whereas those same opinions would get them shouted down or summarily dismissed on other forums. But it works both ways. Don’t make this board into what most of us wanted to leave behind. That’s all I ask.

  63. HenryH says:

    Forgive me, but I think we see the emperor has no clothes.

    Old Darth writes:
    As a reviewer it is my position to give the creators the courtesy of allowing them to present to completion their works before rendering a verdict.

    Well, there’s the problem right there. That is NOT the job of a reviewer, either professional (like Sepinwall) or amateur. The job of a critic–and critic–is to tell his readers what s/he thought of the work PRESENTED. That includes a book, a play or an hour of television. In Chuck’s specific case, 10 SEPARATE hours of TV and one two-hour block for the premiere. Each hour, since it as performed independently, must be judged that way.

    Works being reviewed MUST stand on their own as presented. Period. There simply are no shades of grey here. You review what you have seen. Not what you THINK you’ve seen. Not what you hope the creators were thinking or will be doing.

    You review what you have. Full stop.

    Anything else is dishonest. Worse, it corrupts the process. Worst of all, it is unseemly and, yes, HYPOCRITICAL, if that critic also bashes those people who ARE judiging honestly based on the work as presented.

    • OldDarth says:

      We will have to agree to disagree. 😀

      What you want inferring is that you want jurors to stand up and yell GUILTY! at any point of a trial without waiting for the trial to conclude.

    • HenryH says:

      Old Darth-
      To use your silly analogy, I would suggest you are required to render WHATEVER verdict you want when the judge asks, “Have you reached a decision?”

      The time for decision of a critic of a TV show is after each hour is aired.

      If you’d prefer to watch an entire arc of a show before rendering a decision, that’s actually fine. Just don’t write a WEEKLY review and praise things because you hope or think there’s a surprise coming later.

      You want to write a review of EACH episode as they appear? Judge what is presented as it appears. You want to review an entire season? Cool. Then please hold your tongue UNTIL you’ve seen the entire season.

      You can’t have it both ways. You cannot.

  64. rosie_swt says:

    How can people still defend a romantic storyline that culminated in the hero having to grovel and basically put up a white flag AND have a 3rd party to remove a mental barrier before the heroine decided she wuvs the hero?

    Everything about the Romantic Storyline in Season 3 ranged from idiotic to soapy to childish. That’s about it. The concept, the premise, the execution and oddly enough the conclusion of it felt ummm like the writers wanted to exert revenge on the fans for rooting for the lead couple. So, to me at least, it seems they had a little meeting and said, hey folks, how can we completely sour this story we built up over the last couple of years? And they arrived at the season 3 storyline. And then to add the final nail in the coffin hey how about we make the hero grovel over and over. That will be an epic climax. After he grovels, looses all dignity, lets bring a third party in to solve the problem. That’s epic storytelling.

    And you know what’s funny? Razorback will dismiss me as a crazy shipper. Snag is I m not even a normal shipper. I thought the romantic aspect was a fun B story to the main plot in S1 and S2. I didn’t even care about Cole and Jill etc, I thought they were handled well and were fun additions. This season though well … I can tell you this much. I didn’t care enough to even bother watching the show as it aired, I just DVRed 4-5 episodes and just watched them back to back. Guess why? Cause the story made no sense so I saw no point suffering through nonsense so that 3 months later I ll get a great payoff … meh, payoff was pretty lame to be honest, so boy am I glad I didn’t spend 2 months building it up.

  65. atcdave says:

    I think everyone knows where my sympathies lie; I haven’t liked much about this season going all the way back to Comic-Con. Yes that’s pre-judging; its also discerning. I know my likes and dislikes; when someone is promising themes and story elements I have never liked in the past, I have few reservations about saying, “I don’t like the sound of this.” I’m an action-adventure-comedy sort of guy. I also like characters I can respect and relate to, I like sweet stories (I know, terribly un-manly to admit), and I like being heart-warmed. It isn’t really that hard for me, normally, to read a review, or interview with a writer, to determine if I will like their work. Even many favorite writers of mine have produced works I choose not read/watch. (Stephen Lawhead did a series of graphic novels aimed at teens; OK, those aren’t for me). So much of the early belly aching was a warning that many existing fans weren’t happy about the focus/content of the coming season. I do regret the occasions when my emotions may have gotten the better of me. It is very disappointing when it seems your favorite show won’t even be something you like in the future (kind like it was disappointing when I saw a favorite auther was spending a couple of years on a project that didn’t interest me; but at least he wasn’t trashing an existing story setting and characters to do it).

    Sorry, that got long-winded. I mainly meant to make clear where I stand (as if anyone doesn’t know!). I’ve been insulted and belittled at times like many other ‘shippers. But I really would like to see us all get over it now. I know I’ve occasionally been rude when I was passionate about something, and I’m willing to accept that other fans who felt differently about the show have been rude or insensitive for the same reason. We really need to be directing our energy now towards getting people excited about watching the show again. I’m happy to say, as of 3.12, Chuck is looking like a show I can be excited about again, and I’m eager to spread the word. Let’s bring in more viewers and get the ratings back up. We probably all know people who gave up on the show at some point in the last season; we can start by encouraging them to give it another try. We’ve probably run out of new blood we can reach, except for the few people who have come into our lives in the last couple months; but we all probably know people who would love this show if they would ever give it a chance. NOW is the time. Get them to sit down and watch an episode with you; I’ve brought in a half dozen viewers that way (including one with a Nielson box). Show fun episodes, Angel of Death is excellent for a complete rookie; Operation Awesome, Beard, and Tic Tac all have potential too. But don’t tell people about a fractured fan base or arogant writers. We’ll call those “family secrets”. I think it makes us all look a little silly; at least to anyone who isn’t addicted to a TV show.

    • Jason says:

      was going to write something, just cut and pasted some of what u wrote:

      “I’ve been insulted and belittled at times like many other ’shippers. But I really would like to see us all get over it now.”

      Just to add, in order to get renewed, not too many mis-steps can occur, that is true of the story episodes and the fanbase.

      I understand the break will occur right after 3.13, 3.5 will be the first repeat ep, I am guessing 3.13 will be the second one, sort of the beginning of the shaw arc and the end of it. anyone know different?

      also, any guesses as to what the last scene in 3.13 might be? TPTB still scare me a bit – it will be so vital to the ratings of those re-runs????

    • Zsjaer says:

      I got say i should have listen to DN1 in the NBC forum…he was right all along about TPTB. He warn us that they were going to do this kind of storyline.
      His knowledge about tptb was reliable

      • atcdave says:

        I’ve had a lot of respect for DN1. And he/she takes a lot of heat on the NBC forums for taking that position.

  66. Rac2873 says:

    Crazy shippers have nothing on me. I mean I have been targeted on their fancast from day one. Or as OD, DR and everyone who blindly follows him Richard “AKA the poster child for crazy shippers”.

    Prezofbuymoria, Old Darth, Darth Razorback, Rachel and Siskj even stooped so low as to have a segment where they read my tweets online and mocked me for disliking Final Exam.

    Look I didn’t even have any real complaints with 3.12 as the Chuck You Tuesday Podcast did. I accepted what this season was a lost oppertunity but I am willing to move on. So the fact that I can accept 3.12 and move on from it and just be glad they chose each other makes me not such a crazy shipper after all.

    So people who call people crazy shippers, and these are the people who are trying to get the show cancelled etc, are closed minded and they just label people instead of trying to understand that they are frustrated and have no control.

    I think we should just put this all behind us and start a new. Treat 3.13 – 3.19 like the season we were meant to have. I have already forgotten much of 3.01-3.11. I don’t think I will go back and watch anytime soon but I am done complaining about it. I just want to enjoy the show again.

    There is still so much potential with this show, lets not bury it so it has no chance of survival.

    Also I am pretty sure my comments will end up on the next podcast, but you know what I don’t care anymore. Call me a crazy shipper, I just enjoy Charah together and no WTWT. If I get that I am a happy customer.

    • weaselone says:

      As a fan who wasn’t privy to the origins of the whole shipper vs. fan boy/girl conflict, exactly how did you become DR’s poster child for crazy f’in shippers and primary whipping boy?

    • BeCoolBoy says:

      Rac2873-
      Are you/Were you AgentChuck 003 on Twitter? If you were, I want to thank you for all your work in posting promos and such. Truly, thank you. You’ve contributed MUCH more to the fandom than your critics. I’m sorry your page disappeared. I LIKED your Tweets, too.

      As for being a crazy shipper, well, I will keep asking the question: What else IS there? This isn’t exactly a riveting spy drama (What the hell did Fulcrum want? And the Ring? Puh-leeze…). It’s not much as a workplace comedy.

      So what else IS there but Chuck and Sarah?

      • JLR says:

        I don’t want to draw your ire BCB, b/c, frankly, you’re pretty deadly w/ a keyboard! 🙂 But, speaking for myself, I haven’t been into the whole Charah thing since early S2. And even before then I can honestly say I wasn’t tying my love of the show to how they were doing romatically.

        I don’t have much patience for romantic angst. I fell in love w/, and continued to watch, the show b/c I really liked the INDIVIDUAL characters. I don’t gravitate towards romantic couplings to root for. It actually speaks a lot to my view on romantic relationships, but I’ll stop before I say too much. Based on TV romance paradigm, I just figure such ‘ships tend to be transitory, so I don’t invest in them. My reason for “caring” about how C/S is handled derives from my desire to see a good story told well, and to not muck up the show.

        Before this season, I liked Chuck, INDEPENDENT of Sarah, and I liked Sarah, INDEPENDENT of Chuck; I disliked Morgan, but he has been great this season, and I’ve always been a Casey fan. I like seeing the exchanges between the multiple characters; not necessarily between C/S. So yeah, I am an example of someone who gravitated & stayed w/ the show yet is not a “shipper” by most accepted definitions.

      • Rac2873 says:

        Yeah that is me. Too much dam drama with that name. I am still posting promos. I have them on my youtube page. Twitter is a blessing and a curse. You get to converse with your friends but then someone can use your words intended for no-one in particular to be used to mock you.

        I just want to go back to the good old days when Chuck fans actually loved the show. If this show gets cancelled we are all going to regret the days when all we could do is bash the show.

        If I was an advertiser and I happened upon this site, I would want no part of this show. How can you tell NBC that you would buy advertisment on a show that so many people hate.

        I still love talking about Chuck but it has been bash city lately. We really need to let this go. The past is the past. Harping on it is only going to make it harder to love the show when it does get better, or we are going to regret it when if it gets cancelled.

      • BeCoolBoy says:

        JLR-
        I take your point. I do. I was trying to facetiously suggest that those who’ve critized the show have all been dismissed as crazy shippers. Which I find odd because the relationships in the show are all that set it apart. So when they rip apart the main one, push it front and center, have it overwhelm everything, it’s hard to deal with anything else.

        All they’ve done this year is try to rip apart the personalities they created. Some have rebounded nicely (Casey, Morgan), some not so much (Ellie, Awesome) and some have been dragged through the metaphoric mud (Chuck, Sarah).

        With all that going on, there’s been no room for spy stories or workplace humor or anything. And that has been notably worse in third season as they spend all their time beating up on characters just for, well, I’m sure they’ll tell us one day exactly what was going on… 🙂

      • JLR says:

        ^^ Ahhhh, gotcha….and 100% agree, of course. Yes, very odd that certain people would be so offended that many fans are upset when the characters & relationships are ripped apart. I like character growth as much as anyone, but growth doesn’t necessitate napalming a character, IMO.

    • Waverly says:

      I’ve only been reading stuff online about Chuck since January, so when I saw the term “shipper” I wondered what that meant.

      Then I saw some uses of the term prefixed with an apostrophe, so I figured it was short for “worshipper”. Someone who blindly believes in the goodness and correctness of whatever happens in the series. It also made sense to me that the shortened phrase was used to separate it from any religious connotations, besides just being easier to type.

      Only much later did I read someone saying that “shipper” had to do with character relationships, and one relationship in particular.

  67. Rac2873 says:

    With respect to Ernie and everyone associated with this community I am not going there.

    Changing the subject back to 3.12 and season 3 as a whole.

    I get what they were trying to do, Show Sarah struggling to be a spy who wanted to be a real girl but had no idea how to do it because her Chuck was gone. She had no guide and she fumbled through it. I think the whole Chuck your a spy and you killed was hokey to say the least. It made us question if Sarah really loved Chuck. I don’t think that is what the writers intended but it backfired bigtime. 3.12 is the only episodes that I have watched multiple times. While it was clunky at times, however it actually had Chuck and Sarah talking and they are finally on the same page after all these years. I am willing to drop all my other issues just because the WTWT is finally going to end. lol

    Yeah I am easy but that is all I ever wanted from the show. It was my biggest issue in the 3 years I watched it and now we can see them explore that relationship without the dreaded PLI.

    • weaselone says:

      I think we might have begun to take that turn towards trumpeting the show more than tearing it down, even on this site. Comments regarding 3.12 have been rather positive overall, even from fairly strong critics despite what was a fairly ho hum resolution to the whole Chuck and Sarah mess and some serious plot holes and general cheesiness in the episode. I think most fans of Chuck, shippers included are willing to forgive and enjoy the remainder of the season.

      • Jason says:

        weasel – I think there is a collective sigh of relief that this arc is finally ending – IMO chuck is one of the best tv shows I have ever watched, but the last 12 episodes have possibly disappointed me more than any other also. If I were an advertiser or a network exec viewing this or other forums, I would be excited about chuck, fans by and large despised the season yet still love the show, writing good seasons is not that hard, this show would be a steal for any network with the right strategy in mind

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I was initially pretty down on the episode as I recall, but on a re-watch I wasn’t nearly as negative. My big soured moment came with Sarah’s double standard, but I put it down to more of the same from the previous week’s denial. It was more she hated herself for her part in what Chuck had become and didn’t want to face him. She felt she’d destroyed the guy she fell for and didn’t deserve happiness or him.

        After that it was a pretty good episode. Funny how quickly things worked out once Chuck and Sarah actually talked.

        And I am looking forward to next Monday, I think I’ve just run out of insights and things to say since it’s finally all been put in context by TPTB.

      • Zsjaer says:

        I won t be sad if the show was canceled now. At least is the feeling i have atm. I don t think the next 6 episodes will help me much but maybe i m wrong, hope so.

      • JLR says:

        Put me in the camp of just being happy the romantic tension crap appears to be pretty much over. Nope, I didn’t care for the “resolution” either, but I’ve been prepared for that since the season started. I’m actually taking it pretty well given the person I am. I am ready to move on & try to forget as much of the train wreck as possible. AND I’ve lightened up on my stance WRT promoting the show: I somehow got 2 more households to watch by loaning them my S2 DVD for a small get together they had last weekend (& one of my neighbor’s wives has a work friend who apparently is a Nielsen viewer…she might get recruited also based on their screening of a couple S2 episodes).

      • JC says:

        Trust me I wasn’t a huge fan of the last episode. It was actually the worst and best of Chuck rolled into one. But I figured it was pointless to mention again Sarah having feelings for the guy who basically pimped her out to get Chuck to kill was absurd and offensive.

    • AngelTwo says:

      Ernie-
      What IS amazing about 12 is that basically all Chuck had to do was ASK Sarah for the mulligan on the Red Test and he got it. (I refer to the restaurant scene.) Heavens to murgitroid, what a little talking can do…

      And that mulligan makes the SECOND conversation all the more compelling. Sarah accepted Chuck’s request for a pass on the Red Test, but she was STILL going to go to Washington because SHE was afraid of herself. That was Klemmer (I think) at his best, from Suburbs. A legitimate Catch-22, rather than the phony one set up in Final Exam.

      The only conclusion you can reach: TPTB can do astoundingly good character development if they WANT to do it. They just didn’t want to do it this year. They wanted to play the PLI card. And I don’t know why anyone thinks they’ll want to doo good character developement if there’s a fourth season. Their history (OK, Schwartz’s history) shows they can’t help themselves.

      They’re not bad. THey’re just drawn that way… 🙂

  68. Waverly says:

    500!

  69. HenryH says:

    I think you’re generally correct, Weaselone, except that all of us (you, too, I would say) are still struggling to try and make some sense of the first 12.

    Weirdly, it’s the reverse of us being critical of TPTB. We’re all fighting (against our better judgment, in fact) to try and see what TPTB were talking about. We keep going back and saying, “Well, maybe, sorta, oh, I see why Sarah didn’t do X and why Chuck did Y. Oh, that’s why Casey was a giggling homocidal maniac in Pink Slip and a softie in American Hero…”

    Our desire to see the show this year as making SOME sort of sense is actually having us linger on the train wreck.

    As for moving on, well, there might be two issues here. 1) Can we watch 13-19 with some expectation of fun and satisfaction? 2) Do we trust the show runners not to create another train wreck if they get the season four they suddenly say we have to help them get?

    I know the answer to 1, I think. We’re all ready for some fun with characters we love. We’re all ready to shout, “Hey, there’s that show I loved!”

    The answer to 2? Well, for me, I just don’t trust them anymore. When you look at their writing and creative styles, there’s no indication at all that they can do anything BUT romantic angst and PLI stuff. Moreover, since they cling tenaciously to the meme that we just haven’t understood the “epic” nature of what they’ve done this year, it’s hard to even consider giving them the benefit of the doubt.

    • atcdave says:

      I agree HenryH, I’m concerned about the show we might get in S4. But for now I’m officially more interested in just getting an S4. I seriously believe the worst is over, probably for the whole series. I do believe, the “master plan” from the beginning was the spy couple thing in S4. I think their great failing was in not seeing the time table needed to be adjusted after the way they finished S2.
      So while I don’t fully trust where they’ll be going next year, I have enough optimism to say, at this point, I want to see it.

  70. Ernie Davis says:

    I think it’s time to put this thread to bed. Five hundred plus. I guess it’s safe to say there were a lot of post show reactions.

  71. Rac2873 says:

    I just saw the 3.13 promo from CityTv. The romance is being brought. 😀

  72. Chuck604 says:

    You guys have some great, insightful and interesting takes. I’ve only started reading these forums the last couple of weeks, but I’m a late bloomer. I just started watching the show this season, but I grabbed the BD for seasons 1 and 2. I agree this season hasn’t been as good comparatively as the previous 2, but I’m hoping that the show will go on to another season, and hopefully a much improved one. Like a lot of people here I was drawn to the characters as much as the relationships between them. Keep up the great work..my 2 cents.

  73. Jen says:

    I hate that i’ve been so busy lately that i’ve not been able to participate at all of the discussions going on here!
    Anyway… on the recent discussion about reviews and criticism of TPTB and name calling… i think it’s good for all to remember that if we want to dish it out, we better be prepared to take the same kind of treatment. With that in mind, it is important that know that all deserve respect and courtesy from all and our right to speak has to be curved by others’ right to be respected. This brings out good, respectful, communication… even ifg the parties involved are not in agreement.

    In this community i’ve found just that, a respectufl and friendsly place to express your views and opinions about the show we love so much, and for that i thank ayou all fro your very insightful and so well-thought words.

    Let’s remember, that no matter what our opinion is, we all LOVE this show, if not we wouldn’t be here, blogging, reading, watching, following, happy, or disappointed. I’m so amazed that a show that has lived on the bubble since it’s beginning can touch so many so personally. This is only proof of the talent of all those involved in it’s creation and production. THese next 7 eps it seems things are gonan be GOOD! good enough to help me forget so many of the “weird” things that happened this season.

  74. Jen says:

    I had anxiously waiting for that CityTV promo. A couple of things that i noticed:

    -In that scene where Sarah is kissing Chuck, she is wearing the same clothes (look at the left corner of her shoulder) she’s wearing in the clip with the DYLM moment, so that happens this Monday!

    -In the scene with Shaw and Sarah where she’s wearing the red coat, it seems she has some kind of tranq dart on her right shoulder blade… or did i imagine that??

    Form NBC’s promo… that IS Shaw going at Chuck with a knife. I watched frame by frame a million times last night 🙂

    YS is so amazing. Her expression in the promo where she tells Shaw “I killed your wife?!” is of such disbelief! and at the end of 3.12, her smile at Casey after he confesses to killing Perry, it so perfectly shows her joy.

    • Matt Simons says:

      Good catch on the DYLM moment and the kiss. I figured they’d put that in the back 6 episodes. Glad to see that TPTB were going to put Chuck and Sarah together to end the original 13-episode season. That should give the disenfranchised a reason to return to the fold, and lower the amount of general unhappiness in the various Chuck forums.

      • Jen says:

        I hope is does the trick and we see a nice increase in viewers for this Monday. NBC really sucks at promoting Chuck!

  75. urigueSoide says:

    Hey

    Really glad to get into this forum
    It’s what I am looking for.
    Hope to know more member here.

  76. Pingback: Episode of the Week: Chuck vs The American Hero (3.12) | Chuck This

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