Living A Lie

Can We Talk?

Sarah: Morgan? What are you doing here? Is Chuck up to something?
Morgan: I dunno. You tell me. You know him better than I would. Have you seen the alcove where they keep the bullet-proof pants?
Sarah: You know, Morgan, you and I – we never talk, really.
Morgan: Yeah, well, talking’s a bit overrated. Plus, we don’t have a lot in common. (But I’d like to get to know you better…)
Sarah: Sit!
You’re going to tell me exactly what’s going on and you’re going to do it right now.

It’s inescapable. After a week and hundreds of posts (and far more on other boards), we have not yet plumbed the depths of the deceptions, and the consequences are being felt by everybody.

Chuck lied to Sarah; Chuck lied to Stephen and he’s been lying to Ellie all along. Well, don’t forget that he’s not alone. Stephen shaded the truth from Chuck, and is lying outright to Ellie. Ellie’s keeping secrets now and lying to Devon; Devon’s been lying to Ellie ever since he “decapitated the bear”. If Ellie thinks for a minute that her over-protectiveness has been helping Chuck, she’s not only lying to herself, she’s been lying to him as well, because she knows better. It gets worse. Of the two honest characters, Morgan is honest because he’s a coward and Casey uses the truth like a budgeon on his partners! The CIA may have been lying to everybody, and Sarah, our beloved Sarah, is still the master deceiver, just as she’s always been. She reverts to covering for Chuck with Stephen and she went “off-grid”, essentially lying professionally to her superiors and to her partners. When she overhears Chuck lying to Stephen, she’s complicit and she couldn’t even be honest with Chuck about Shaw and DC.

Not that they all didn’t have good reason, mind you…

The truth is coming out, bit by bit, regardless. Truth tends to do that, as both Chuck and Sarah discover, so it’s time they start talking to each other.

Sarah: Where’s your dad?
Chuck: He found out I was the intersect, and now he left.
Sarah: Chuck, he must have had a good reason. He loves you.
Chuck: I know. I – I know that he loves me. He just doesn’t know me. He doesn’t know anything about me – why I became the intersect, that I can help people, and for the first time in my life, what I do actually means something.
Sarah: Did you tell him that?

In Chuck vs. The Living Dead we had a episode that some have rightly criticized as derivative (“Shaw is alive? Didn’t we see Bryce do that???”) or soap-operaish (secrets, lies and deceptions being the stock and trade of daytime soaps). I can see that. But, I have to ask, was it enjoyable?  I know I enjoyed it.

Yes, we’ve seen these things before. We’ve seen our hero’s blown up, discouraged, lied to, betrayed and succeed in nearly every episode, in fact. Yet, watching Chuck wield Tonfa was, as the original Darth Vadar would say, most impressive. Well done! As for Sarah,

Stephen: Does she have an intersect too???
Chuck: No, dad. That’s all her. Hi, honey!

We’ve certainly seen contrivances used more than once. Still, I was surprised that we saw someone new intersecting, and I was really surprised that it was Shaw. (Before I leave this, I noticed that there was some confusion about exactly who intersected. Although Chuck and Sarah thought it was Shaw who had come to Shaw’s penthouse, that was Justin. And it was Justin who called “someone” at the end, claiming his team had been destroyed, and that they had to “do it now!”. That someone was identified by the computer as Shaw, and wasn’t meant to be confused with Justin, I believe.)

If I’m Not Back In 20 Minutes, You Come Save Me.

As for soap-opera, I can understand that criticism too, but I disagree, because their relationship is too stable now for soap-opera, in a way that makes me smile. Chuck and Sarah constantly fall back on Sarah’s dictum from the pilot “I didn’t ask you to believe me; I asked you to trust me.” Deception is part of her world, and now it’s part of Chuck’s. Trust is still king, but they must communicate. Even Jeff and Lester discover that above all, they must communicate. Fortunately, Chuck and Sarah are learning to do just that, yes, even “You never did know how to express your feelings” Sarah.

Chuck: What’s wrong?
Sarah pats the bed next to her.
Sarah: I’ve been thinking a lot about what happened at the cabin, and how you almost died. You know, everything that your dad said about the life that we’ve chosen – he’s right. What we do is not safe. I want you to have this.
It’s my spy-will.

Chuck: Why are you giving me this?
Sarah: This is me. It’s everything I know. It’s my life and if something were to happen to me, well, if anyone’s going to have it, I want it to be you.
Chuck: Nothing’s going to happen to you. You’re not going anywhere, and neither am I.

Chuck shouldn’t say that, because he may be writing a check that he cannot cash. It’s a promise he may not be able to keep and no one can make such a statement honestly. It is, in fact, the opposite of a truth.

But you see, when all is said and done, the opposite of a profound truth often isn’t a lie. It’s another profound truth.

I Am Your Skin – The Bravery.

And you know me now
like a mother knows a child
And you know me now
like I came from your own body
I can feel your pulse like a moth inside a jar
And even this is still too far
Even this is still too far

I wanna be your skin
I wanna feel everything you feel
I wanna be your covering

So let them come like an army against us
I know you won’t be afraid
Because I am the armor upon you now
And we are never betrayed
There is no ending between you and me

– joe


About joe

In my life I've been a professor, martial artist, rock 'n roller, rocket scientist, lover, poet and brain surgeon. I'm lying about the brain surgery.
This entry was posted in Inside Chuck, Inside Sarah, Observations, Season 3. Bookmark the permalink.

119 Responses to Living A Lie

  1. odysszeuss says:

    FIRST 😉

    • odysszeuss says:

      Well done, Joe.

      Especially i like: But you see, when all is said and done, the opposite of a profound truth often isn’t a lie. It’s another profound truth.

      It’s a powerful line, i think…

      • joe says:

        Thank you, Oz. That line didn’t originate with me, but it certainly struck me as powerful when I first heard it.

        I have to be careful with such things. The way it stated, it cannot be contradicted. That doesn’t mean it’s true, just that it’s clever.

        I do believe it, though, because of my own experiences.

      • jason says:

        joe this reviewer does love / has not been a particularly big chuck fanboy, but he seems to observe things more clearly than many fans / reviewers since he is somewhat impartial. Here is a paragraph from his review on his take on the lies – his entire review can be found on the link below:

        “That’s what this episode is all about: secrets and lies, how sometimes they are necessary and are often motivated by good intentions, but how they always end up hurting those we love, chipping away at the foundations of trust and honesty until their structures become withered, compromised and unstable. Wow, that was kinda deep and poetic wasn’t it? Seriously though, it’s these kinds of human dialectics that make Chuck a more involving show. Yes, the show was conceived as light, frothy fun that doesn’t take itself too seriously, but these serious underpinnings that are now in place are really important. Like anything else, I think comedy is empty if you don’t have real emotions anchored underneath it.”

      • joe says:

        Wow – Thanks, Jason.

        In my own way, I’ve been trying to make that same point forever about Chuck. I mean, I could shout from the rooftops forever that this show actually says something important and meaningful, sometimes. Of course, I do that at exactly the moment when Chuck’s pants wind up around his ankles, proving me a liar and making it a futile act.

        Still, without making too much of it (because it is just a TV show, after all), Chuck does reach those heights on occasion. And it does say important things about us every so often. Often enough to keep me impressed.

        Not what your normal TV show would do.

  2. cas says:

    Nice post Joe. I am really going to miss this show after the finale but I’m also kind of glad the we will get a 4 month break after it. This show has put me on 1 long emotional roller coaster. Need a break to regain my man hood. I can’t wait for the day I take my girl out to eat and not think about Shaw’s lame pick up line while we’re eating dessert.

    • joe says:

      You may not be home free, Cas. The last time I took my wife out to dinner, I thought about Chuck & Sarah’s date in the Pilot, and in particular, how he focused on her. I spent the evening focusing on my wife the same way while she, of course, was not aware of the source of my inspiration.

      Her reaction was gratifying, to say the least. 😉

      • atcdave says:

        Funny Joe, on a similar note I recently questioned my wife if she was a cannibal. She laughed and played along, but had no idea of the reference.

      • joe says:

        I assume you mentioned that you had never met one and was sort of curious?

        You’re a brave man, Dave! 😉

    • Jen says:

      Hey Cas.. i too wanna get some of my brain/thoughts back… they surround around our show too much! i think the 4 month break will do me well.

  3. JC says:

    I think were seeing a different side to Chuck. He seems like a carefree trusting guy but he’s really not. You can see he has major abandonment issues. I don’t think he really trusts anyone but Ellie and Morgan. I’m not saying he doesn’t trust Sarah but I don’t think its to extent as those two. He lost both parents at an early age, betrayed by Bryce and Jill twice.

    Lots has been written and discussed about how messed up Sarah is emotionally but IMO Chuck is too. They just hide it in different ways. Sarah puts up walls while Chuck acts like its no big deal.

    • Crumby says:

      Yeah Chuck has major abandonment issues.

      We’ve seen that last week too. When he said to Sarah “you can’t give up on me, OK”.

      And he said in Best Friend “I don’t talk about it because that’s just the it is now”.

      • Hannah says:

        And also when he told Stephen that he had uploaded the Intersect 2.0, he go defensive and yelled, “You left! Again.”

  4. herder says:

    One of the interesting developments of the back six is how good Sarah is at the relationship. Remember in the Nemisis Bryce said that she wasn’t good with personal stuff(paraphrased) and in Crown Vic she herself said that she wasn’t good at relationships. So far, she has agreed to quit the spy life for Chuck, moved in with him, told him she loves him, said that all she can think of is their future together and given him her spy will. Not too shabby for someone who is bad at relationships.

    At the same time, Chuck, who was good at personal stuff has dropped the ball more than a few times and it hasn’t phased Sarah or caused her to doubt him at all. She seems to be the stronger one of the two.

    • ChuckNewbie8 says:

      I especially loved her “you need to be honest to the people you love and that goes to me too.” Not bad for a woman that just a year ago (best friend) admitted she didn’t have anyone in her life who cares about her.

      I also like that we’re finding she’s a better girlfriend as she is a spy. That whole getting his address reminded me so much of Broken Heart and how differently she can comfort him now and still. The whole speech about his dad and how his dad loves him and how much she wants this or that for Chuck. Let’s just say I really like the person Sarah Walker has become. I’m less certain about Chuck Bartowski. If that’s even his real name. He could be lying about that too (said tongue in cheek).

      • Crumby says:

        I really liked her “In the event that your dad ran off, I wanted you to be able to find him.”

        Since Honeymooners, I really live the Sarah Walker we’ve seen too. 🙂

      • odysszeuss says:

        Hi CN8,

        that’s really a provoke quote…

        Everything Sarah is now is because of everything Chuck thought her. He established her way of thinking about honesty, family, friends and relationships.

        Everything Chuck had learned from Sarah is how to be a spy and a liar.

        The problem is clear. Being a mess (Sarah) it’s relatively easy for her to adjust her new acknowledgements (honesty) into her private life.

        Obviously Chuck isn’t that confident in the handling of the truth. In order to protect his family and friends he learned 2 years long as an asset he has to lie to his family and friends to keep them save. Doing this to his girlfriend there would be nothing wrong with it. BUT his girlfriend isn’t a civilian. The lie fine tuning is really a problem for him.

        For Sarah being a lifetime a liar, it’s comfortable and easy to be nearly honest to the guy she loves. Being honest is a comfortable way for her. She’s glad she can do this, now. I’m absolutely OK with that!!! And for the audience seeing Sarah the spy being honest. That’s it!

        BUT: as said above. Chuck learned he has to lie to keep his clan save. And now Sarah tells him he has to be honest to the persons he love…

        What’s right? What’s wrong?

        I don’t want to stick in Chuck’s skin. Telling the truth could be dangerous he learned. Being honest is the way he prefers to be in his life. BUT safety first… lieing to his family, it’s a necessary asset to keep them save.

        Being in this situation it’s “comfortable” solve other problems the same way. AND that he really needs to learn. But this way around the problem “honesty” it’s much more difficult for him as the same problem for Sarah. For her it’s easy to be honest. All the time she never had to lie to keep him save. Time to time she decided to lie to him to comfort or to support him. Being honest she is having a good time now…

      • Sole says:

        odysszeuss, I really like your point of view. I haven’t considered that… well said…

      • atcdave says:

        Some good points OZ, except now the problem is, Ellie is in deep doodoo because she doesn’t know the truth. If she knew most of what was going on the first place she would have been able to talk to, well anyone, and would have prevented almost getting Orion killed, knocking Casey out, and Ellie in the custody of the Ring.

      • joe says:

        Very good post, Oz.

        I’m considering the idea that both Chuck & Sarah have to meet in the middle. They both have to consider their need for everyone’s safety (and therefore, the need for deception) AND their own need for honesty as a couple. That’s the challenge they face.

        I hope that the way the show progresses, they learn they are much stronger as a team (and better able to protect everyone) when they are honest with each other and communicating. Going it alone only weakens them.

      • odysszeuss says:

        “keep them save” often means: If they (chucks clan) know anything about your spy life we (the CIA) have to protect them, too. at this means probably they (the CIA) put them in a bunker. because awesome is awesome he wasn’t going in the bunker. but Morgan nearly did!!! because of Sarah and just as Casey guaranteed for him he must not.

        acknowledging and remembering this, Dave, in the history of the chuck saga chuck had to protect his clan first in front of the CIA. a real threat from the outside was never a real concern for him. this time Ellie is captured by the ring is NOT Chuck’s fold.

        After everything is played out, there have to establish new rules for that whole lie to protect thing. clearly. but we have a history and reasons for lying. as i said above. safety first. and for chuck the asset the CIA was the biggest threat to him and his clan. meanwhile chuck as a real spy by himself really has to decide for his own whats right and whats wrong. And as Joe said especially Chuck and Sarah soon will find a realistic way dealing with that issue.

      • atcdave says:

        You are right OZ that ignorance protects Ellie from the government. That is a consistant assumption the show makes. The problem is, that’s one of those things I just don’t buy. I work for the government, and at different times have handled sensitive and secret information. That doesn’t put my family in any danger. Government employees are trained in how to handle the information they have (what they can talk about/what they can’t). Chuck was an outsider in S1/S2. But now he isn’t. He would know what he can’t discuss with anyone, and what he CAN. Chuck’s cover story of being an analyst who occasionally handles sensitive material would keep everyone around him safe, and make it easy for him to simply say when he can’t talk about something.

        I know this is an adventure/comedy. I don’t hold them to a high standard on many things. But I’m always a little wary of things that sound like paranoid conspiracy stuff. And yes, a spy themed show will always have some of that. And I will always wince and say, “c’mon now…”

        Kind of the same way I react to aircraft types being switched in mid-flight or an instrument approach glide-slope being repositioned from the control tower….

      • odysszeuss says:

        Dave, I’m 100% in your courtyard. at all it’s really an assumption problem. the right cover story (chuck vs. ellie/chuck vs. the clan at all) heals everything.

        By the way, i always thought real spies are human beings like you and me, watching television, watching chuck, checking forums like this in their free time…
        are you a kind of proof for that assumption of mine…

    • joe says:

      Absolutely, Herder. Sarah-the-girlfriend has really taken me by surprise. For three episodes now I’ve been expecting her to lower the boom on Chuck for any little perceived misstep, but then she goes and either does something wonderful or just treats him with the respect due anyone who’s gained her confidence. It’s almost like Chuck deserves it or something.

      Makes me feel all guilty about my doubts, too! 😉

    • atcdave says:

      Agreed herder, Sarah has been a pleasent surprise. Chuck, more the other kind….

    • Chuck604 says:

      Yeah Herder,

      Sarah has really stepped up big time in the girl-friend department as the relationship has developed over the past few episodes. She really has invested herself into the relationship, and has been very patient with Chuck’s missteps. It all culminated in her giving Chuck her spy-will, though I’m sure she will have more in store as time goes on.

      • Crumby says:

        The thing is she’s always been really patient with Chuck’s missteps in the first two seasons. Maybe she was a little harsh at times but it was more related to her role as a handler, and the necessity to keep Chuck safe.

        She’s been less forgiving and patient with Chuck in season 3.0 because they weren’t together, and weren’t going to be, and she wasn’t his handler anymore.

      • odysszeuss says:

        and because he isn’t a victim of the intersect anymore. In 1 & 2 she was proud and protective about the normal guy she really cares for (in love). In 3 in Sarahs eyes he kind of dumped her and wanted (selfish) to be the boy playing with bad boys spy games.

    • weaselone says:

      It’s because Sarah’s been reduced to a caricature. I find it interesting that nobody is criticizing this instantaneous transformation of the troubled Sarah Walker to perfect spy girlfriend.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        We only criticize the apparent OOC moments we don’t like. Personally I think they’re setting us up for some major relationship angst in the finale or an is Chuck and/or Sarah dead cliffhanger.

      • Crumby says:

        With this Shaw arc we got in the Front 13, Sarah is the character who suffered the most IMO. So now her transformation feels rushed because it should have been done within more episodes.

      • joe says:

        Well, Ernie has a point. The change is something we like! But really, it seems this is three years in coming.

        It’s like one of those overnight success stories, where the star reaches greatness in 5 minutes, but only after years of struggle. Ya know?

      • Merve says:

        Thus far, it’s just a one-episode blip in Sarah’s character development. Up until the end of “Tooth,” she was the closed-off one. Viewed in a more positive light, I guess you could say that “Tooth” is about Sarah tearing down her walls and Chuck erecting his walls. He’s going to have to tear them down again.

      • weaselone says:

        Hasn’t stopped some fans from dumping on Chuck. Sarah’s an angel, Chuck’s a douche. He’s not worthy of her…

      • weaselone says:

        The writers are sort of playing with fire with this stuff. Do they really want people to question whether Sarah and Chuck should be a couple?

      • Crumby says:

        I don’t think anybody is saying he’s not worthy of her.

        When I wrote my post about Sarah earlier, I felt like fans were dumping on her about the whole interogation thing.

        Now with this whole lie thing from Chuck, you feel like we’re dumping on him.

        I think we just love both of the character and are expecting a lot from them.

  5. Crumby says:

    Hi Joe, I’d like to address that part: “and Sarah, our beloved Sarah, is still the master deceiver, just as she’s always been. She reverts to covering for Chuck with Stephen and she went “off-grid”, essentially lying professionally to her superiors and to her partners. When she overhears Chuck lying to Stephen, she’s complicit and she couldn’t even be honest with Chuck about Shaw and DC.”

    First about her complicity to lie to Stephen: was she supposed to not lie and tell him Chuck has downloaded the Intersect 2.0? And isn’t Chuck the one dragging her into this lie?
    To me all she did was going along with Chuck’s lead because it was his choice to make, not hers, and as soon as she had the occasion she told Chuck what she thought about it.
    I really don’t see what she did wrong here.

    About her going off-grid with Shaw, well, didn’t Chuck went off grid with Jill in the past? Didn’t she go off-grid for Chuck not only in Colonel but also in Pink Slip? I don’t think we minded at those times. What bothers fans is that she did it to be with Shaw.

    Finally about her relationship with Shaw, there is two different things to me, what she said before they got together with Chuck and what she said after they got together.

    She lied about DC before they got together, so she didn’t have to give him all the details of her sex life at that time. Saying it was a work trip and that’s why she didn’t take his calls was less harsh than saying: “yeah I had a great time with my new boyfriend and I didn’t feel like talking to my ex-boyfriend”. And her lie was part of a way to hide why she didn’t take Chuck’s calls, and she didn’t take his calls because she still loved him and wanted to distance herself from him at that time. It is a lie, no discussion on that, but also remember Chuck said “allthough I can’t really picture what Shaw does for fun”, was she supposed to tell him? I don’t think so. It was just one of those lie you say because you don’t want to talk about it and want to drop the subject. And right after that, Shaw brought her bag, remember? And Chuck ask her later about their relationship in ways that let us think he knew how serious it was. If Chuck took Sarah to her words about this “DC work trip”, it’s also because he wanted to.

    About the whole relationship, I think there is a big difference about lying and not giving all the details of all the things you did and all the places you went. Seriously, do you think Sarah knows exactly what happened between Chuck and Jill when they went off-grid, minutes-to-minutes? She has a pretty good idea but he surely hasn’t given her all the details. In the interrogation scene, they were basically talking about every moment Sarah spent with Shaw. What was she supposed to do? Saying after Paris: “Chuck I love you, and I need to give you every details of the time I spent with the guy you killed to save my life”?

    IMO, Chuck had a pretty good idea of what happened between Shaw and Sarah, and unless he did asked her details about their relationship after Paris, she had no reasons to bring it up again. I’d considered it a real lie if he asked and she didn’t answer the truth. Otherwise, to me it is omission, and there are reasons to explain it.

    Faith asked if fans have a double standard between Chuck and Sarah about the lies. And it seems to me that there is. Chuck lied at least three times to Sarah and four times to his dad (I haven’t really counted so I might be mistaken), when given a chance to come clean. They weren’t omissions. They were lies.

    And I would add 2 things.
    The first one, and it is no excuse for Sarah’s lies, but Chuck is the one supposed to be honest, open and all those stuff. We expect more from him. I do anyway. It may not be fair, but that’s how I feel.
    The second isn’t about the fact of lying itself. I can most of the time understand his reasons. What had bothered me this season about Chuck’s lies (I extend to the whole season because I really saw in that episode what I saw in Nacho Sampler, Mask or Fake Name, and didn’t like) is the way he does it. He plays card such has “you know me, I wouldn’t lie”, he appears careless about the lies at times, he drags other people into the lies… And when even Morgan seems somewhat disappointed in his friend for all the lies “yes, I realize that honesty is important in a relationship”, “wait, you didn’t tell him?” I think it tells you how bad it is.

    Joe, please don’t take personally all the generalizations about fans I’ve made here, your comment just allowed me to express my thoughts.

    • weaselone says:

      Crumby, there’s a big different between going off grid to keep someone from being thrown in a whole and going off grid so you don’t get interrupted while having sex. As for Chuck, well I’m fairly certain that there are more than a few fans upset about Chuck going off grid with Jill. Even this circumstance is different than Sarah’s. Chuck as an asset was under constant surveillance. In order to have sex without his handlers knowing the details, he basically had to go off grid. That series of episode emphasized the degree of surveillance he was under. He couldn’t escape their eyes on the roof, and Jill had to toss her shirt over the camera in his room to give them visual privacy. I’m fairly certain that Shaw and Sarah could have engaged in physical intimacy without going off grid.

      As for Chuck knowing or not knowing. We can only be certain he suspected the relationship was significant, especially given his statement in American hero. Of course, Sarah never confirms how serious they were. Chuck’s comments are almost always meant to solicit information from Sarah. He’s looking for confirmation and she never really gives it to him one way or another. she’s almost always noncommittal in her answers. Even in American hero she talks only about how Shaw is sacrificing himself and she never confirms to Chuck how much she cares about him.

      As for Chuck’s lying and Sarah’s angelic perfection in the back six. It’s making me a little weary. Wasn’t Sarah supposed to have flaws? Why other than a brief refusal to move in is it Chuck’s baggage that’s weighing on the relationship, baggage we didn’t even know he had? Why does Chuck have to be the bad guy again when they already gave him that role up through the end of the Hannah arc?

      • Crumby says:

        I’m not saying that going off-grid to spend the day in your boyfriend’s loft is ok, of course. I personally even was a little disappointed to here that. You’re right my comparisons weren’t good. But is it a lie, really? They didn’t check in, they didn’t say we are going to be in Castle all day and weren’t, they just didn’t say where they were, and nobody seemed to care until now. Honestly I don’t really now how bad this is to not check in on a professional POV, I think it is really bad, but from a personal POV I don’t really see it as bad as that. I don’t get why we would compare that to Chuck lying to his dad and his girlfriend the way he does.

        I also agree that Sarah hasn’t really been clear with Chuck on her relationship with Shaw. She hasn’t been clear with him on her relationship with Bryce or Cole either. Chuck was way more clear about Lou, Jill and Hannah.
        But the only time (that I remember I might be wrong) he asked her how serious it was, she said: “I don’t know, it’s different”. She just didn’t know where she was going. She didn’t confirm how much she cared, because she didn’t know how much she cared.
        That’s no excuse by the way. She avoids telling him, letting him guess from what he sees. It is bad. But they weren’t together, and she had no obligation to tell him anything at the time. So I again don’t really see it has a lie. However if Chuck has asked her about it since they got together, we haven’t seen it but it’s possible, then in that case it is really bad.

        As for Sarah’s lack of flaws and Chuck’s baggage, I agree. I don’t see why they are doing this. As much as I find it really pleasant to see Sarah that way, and I don’t see the way it was done as unbelievable, I thought it was mostly well done, I don’t get why Chuck’s portrayed that way. But I’m just commenting what they offer me, and wanted to point out that I found some people less forgivable to Sarah than to Chuck.

        Maybe it is because we just don’t understand why he’s written that way. So we “forgive” him.

      • karen says:

        That whole Casey interrogation scene was just an angst buildup for Shaw’s return. Plus I m sure show-runners were happy they “got one over” their fans again. It really is silly cause last time they thought they generated “buzz” by getting fans all riled up and posting in blogs the show went from a 2.5 rating to a 1.9 rating. Somebody needs to tell them not all publicity is good publicity.

        Does it really matter? Nah. I mean we were told Sarah was in some sort of relationship with Shaw over what? 5-6 episodes? It’s logical they’d have alone time, sex, couples massages, gifts etc. So now we found out while Chuck was on his DC trip Sarah was smooching Shaw. Big deal. Is it a lie though? Not unless Chuck directly asked her and she directly lied. Plus it generally is none of Chuck’s business what she did with her previous boyfriend, much like it is none of Sarah’s business what Chuck did with Hannah and Jill. Chuck gave Jill a ring, Shaw gave Sarah earrings.

        Sarah though is slightly annoying from honeymooners and on. She’s like this little barbie girl that just adjusts to whatever Chuck wants, like her whole “journey” was about becoming the perfect Chuck girlfriend, as opposed to her own person. I know it’s fantasy, I know Sarah ultimately can only be the barbie girl that pines for the nerdy hero, that the basic superhero story premise, but it’s still annoying.

      • weaselone says:

        Jill’s Ring had a little different purpose than Sarah’s ear rings…

        I agree about Sarah somehow converting from a real character with her own motivations, problems and failings to Spy Barbie. I don’t think it has to be inevitable.

      • karen says:

        weasel, yes it had a different purpose but not a different a meaning, that’s what I was saying. Both were just “gifts”, not something overly sentimental to be treasured by the recipient.

        That plus Sarah doesn’t seem to get to tied up with presents. I mean she kept Chuck’s charm bracelet even though she wasn’t with him, didn’t love him anymore blah blah, stands to reason she’d wear Shaw’s earrings cause she thought they were cute disregarding who gave them to her.

      • Crumby says:

        Sarah turning to the “perfect girlfriend” is the same problem than her turning in “the worse still in love ex-girlfriend” we had in season 3.0. They used her as a tool in Chuck’s journey.

      • weaselone says:

        Right, and I don’t want Sarah used purely as a tool. I’ve always viewed her as a fellow hero on her own journey.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I agree. We all know that when it comes to the journey Shaw is the tool.

      • atcdave says:

        Dang guys, we sure seem to wrapped up in some odd things now.

        What double standard? I’ve seen a lot of electrons spilled over Chuck’s lying, I think fans are far more concerned about that than they are about Sarah’s activities with a previous boyfriend. Personally I don’t like either aspect of the story, and I’ll participate in discussions about both. Chuck needs to stop lying. Sarah messed up with the Sham. Both are stupid character moments.

        Sarah is too perfect now? C’mon! They just sent her on one of the most painfully destructive character arcs I’ve ever sat through (seriously, I would normally drop a show for such soap opera stupidity). We’ve seen a few flaws related to her emotional reservations, but mostly we’ve seen her strengths for the last couple weeks. I have no doubt we’ll see character flaws from her again in the future; but apart from the Sham she always has been a mostly idealized character. There aren’t enough characters like that on television today. Most writing is so cynical in nature its hard to find decent heroic characters. I think it is likely we’ll finish the season with her in mortal danger, or Chuck thinking she’s dead (remember the spy wills?), or her making one of those morally ambiguous “Mauser” sort of decisions.

        Sorry if I stepped on any toes. I’m not trying to insult anyone. But what are we really complaining about? I’m pretty happy with where we’re at now, my biggest concern is that I’ll still find the show enjoyable after whatever happens this Monday.

    • lucian says:

      Not to beat a dead horse, but my issue isn’t that Sarah and Shaw were having some fun together, it was the fact that this all happens directly after Shaw has ordered Sarah to “administer” Chuck’s Red Test, which she reluctantly does, even though she fully understands the consequences in her life, and the impact it will have on Chuck. And then, after putting Chuck through this and never really saying what she thinks about it all, Chuck is now a schmuck and she is going to move to D.C. and have some fun with the guy who ordered her to do it????

      This is not a woman I would want my son to be dating (I tend to look at the world through Papa B’s eyes, since we are of the same generation).

      • karen says:

        As far as Sarah was concerned it was a) what Chuck wanted to be a spy and b) Chuck’s choice whether to go through with the red test and become one. Shaw gave her reasonable arguments as to why Chuck needed to do the Red Test if he wanted to be a spy.

        Plus don’t forget that last scene in final exam. At that particular time Sarah really really didn’t like Chuck. And Shaw was her guy.

      • Crumby says:

        And remember the beginning of American Hero. She really was trying to move on with Shaw.

    • joe says:

      I finally saw this, Crumby. This was precisely the reaction I wanted to provoke with the line! Thank you.

      Faith has brought up the double standard wrt/Chuck, and I sort of agree that there is one, but I think it’s been Chuck who’s getting short changed here. We’ve been pretty hard on him, actually. We’ve been very demanding that he be scrupulously honest in a variety of situations, but in way that we’re not demanding from other characters, especially Sarah. “Leave the deception to me.” she said early on. And so we have. When Chuck lies to Stephen in Castle and Sarah overhears him, she looks up from her paperwork to give him a look that can be interpreted two ways. One of them is “Don’t lie, Chuck.” The other is “Be careful with your words here, lover.” In one of those, we’re letting Sarah off the hook, but there’s a price. It puts some distance between them that’s not there.

      Sarah knows what he’s doing, and even if she’s not 100% alright with it, she’s not going to let it come between them because she’s a spy herself. She has done, and will continue to do those kinds of deceptions.

      • weaselone says:

        There’s other double standards that run the other way as well. Many fans hold on to the injuries and lies Chuck has inflicted on his family and friends as a result of the spy game, but they easily dismiss the injuries lies that Sarah has inflicted on Chuck because it was her job. The only real difference is that Chuck is the only person close to Sarah that her actions would hurt. Chuck had an entire family and friends.

      • Crumby says:

        I think Sarah has proved that she can understand his lies in the last two episodes. Doesn’t make them right though. Doesn’t mean she doesn’t expect him to tell the truth next time.

        What I also think is that she doesn’t want him to stop the lies because it’s wrong, but because it doesn’t help him.
        She wants to be abble to help.
        She push him to tell his father about the Intersect because she knows his father loves him and will accept Chuck’s motives to be a spy and support him.
        That’s the things she wants for Chuck and his lies prevent that from happening.

        But like I said I agree that we expect more from Chuck, and that it is probably unfair.

      • Crumby says:

        I think it’s unfair to hold against Chuck his lie to Ellie. Judging by Morgan’s reaction when he learned the truth he doesn’t blame Chuck for lying to him for 2 and a half years. Why should we?

        I’m more concerned by the way he does it, and how he feels about it.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        There’s a big difference between lying to someone who is innocent and someone who is not. PapaB knows about the spy game, Sarah knows about the spy game. By lying to them he’s not so much protecting them as he is mistrusting them. His excuses are just that, excuses.

        When Sarah said, “you have to be honest with the people you love and that includes me too” she didn’t mean, tell Ellie the truth now! (Although we can see the peril in lies, clearly now can’t we?) She meant it in the tell your Dad the truth, tell me the truth.

        Here’s the deal, my issue with Chuck lying isn’t so much that he’s “protecting” those he loves but that this is a holdover from Darth Chuck. You know the guy Sarah was so afraid he would turn into? There’s a difference between lying out of necessity and lying for the sake of lying. He’s lying.

        When once upon a time, Chuck would agonize over the act, now he just does it just as a first resort. Remember Broken Heart? “I just want to be able to tell Ellie the truth, about who I am and what I do…I can’t believe how much the United States government has hurt my family.” I’m not saying it’s right to tell Ellie the truth in that instance, lying works in that instance…but it’s all about Chuck. Look and feel his agony, that Chuck wouldn’t lie just so he doesn’t have to talk about things…he would lie because he had to. This Chuck is lying not just to Sarah (who honestly can tell best when he’s lying) but to his dad as well (who can fix him). And his answer? “Who do you think I am?” Which to me says it all. He KNOWS what he’s doing is wrong. He needs to quit it. And please don’t tell me he’s going to come clean next epi, or the one after that. I thought he was supposed to have ended the lie in this episode?

        And even with his lies both Sarah and his dad has shown they’re willing to stand by him through his deception and his mistrust…they’re a far better person for that than Chuck is when he lies. Chuck needs to stop lying to the people he loves, period.

      • atcdave says:

        Excellent post CN8, well put.

      • weaselone says:

        But he’s not lying to them as part of the spy game. His lie to Sarah is to shield her from his illness. The woman has huge abandonment issues and now that she’s finally opened up and allowed herself to love she has the privilege of finding out the man she loves is dying. His lies to his father stem from his knowledge of how Steven Bartowski feels about the spy life. What’s Steven’s reaction when Chuck is finally forced to come clean? He leaves. Yes, he comes to his senses eventually and offers to make Chuck a governor, but when he first stomps out that door helping his son isn’t what’s on his mind. The lies have absolutely nothing to do with trust and everything about protecting people he cares about. He doesn’t want his father or Sarah to worry about him. He doesn’t want his father to run away again and hurt his sister.

      • Crumby says:

        Orion wasn’t running away. He went back to his cabin to check if he could build a Governor for the 2.0.

        He was coming back. He said so to Ellie.

        When he said “I’m not gonna watch my son die”, he meant “I have to go find a way to save you”. Not OK “I’m leaving now.”

        Orion wanted to be sure before telling Chuck about the Governor (sounds familiar?), so he didn’t tell him was he was leaving, so Chuck took it as his dad running away again because of history.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        OK, I hate to dive back in, but I’m going to… First, I’ll re-iterate that I don’t know anyone who would have used the moments after a very emotionally vulnerable woman’s (possibly) first ILY to tell her that a doctor was speculating about possible side effects of a new science when the doctor himself said Chuck was fit for duty and “time would tell”. Now, given that the doctor was not sure I think that this, like Shaw being a dream, gives Chuck some leeway to try to get some certainty rather than loading a finally happy and content Sarah up with every uncertainty and possible bad thing that maybe might happen. So there is a bit of a time factor where I think he is justified to try and get some answers.

        For Shaw, Sarah and Morgan short circuited that one, and while it did put them on Shaw’s trail, sort of, it also tipped off the Ring and accelerated their plans. In addition it put both Chuck and Sarah through a very uncomfortable process where Sarah, of all people, had to open up about her past personal life in front of both Casey and Chuck. I’m not totally convinced a case couldn’t be made for Chuck looking into Shaw and maybe even getting some help from Casey before going to Sarah. But that one was great comedy, both with Morgan and the Sarah interrogation, so I’ll let that go.

        For the intersect problems Papa B removed any excuse. He told Chuck not only that the problem was real and pretty much inevitable, but that he had been working to fix it. And had. So this is the dilemma. Chuck didn’t mention it to Sarah right away because they were more concerned about Papa B leaving at that point, I’ll give him that. Then there was the conversation where Papa B says he’ll make Chuck a governor, basically giving Chuck some certainty when he talks to Sarah. This is what is happening, this is what we can do about it. But before that conversation Sarah hits him with the spy will. Suddenly this is about more than the intersect, and Chuck sits down to prepare his will, and I think for the inevitable conversation with Sarah.

        Given the show’s oft used premise that an interrupted or delayed conversation could not have happened at any time off screen until we see the next opportunity Chuck had three opportunities to tell Sarah about the possible and speculative intersect problems. One was the ILY, which I say is an obvious no-way. The second was the morning conversation after enlisting Morgan. At that point he was more focused on Shaw. The third was in castle where she stated the doctor said you were healthy, but again they were more focused on Shaw and Chuck’s dad at that point, and the doctor’s diagnosis was still speculation. Sorry, I think Chuck’s sins are minor at this point. I’d call it more akin to a doctor telling you they got a weird result on a blood test they don’t quite understand, but if it turns out to be what they think it could be a problem in the future rather than a terminal diagnosis.

        Once Chuck had certainty via his dad he had two chances to tell Sarah. One when his dad had left and he was focused on that, and one, after his dad told him he could be “cured” when Sarah kind of broadened the topic to spy life in general. The next thing we see Chuck doing is preparing his will, and presumably for a talk with Sarah.

        Sorry, Chuck isn’t such a d-bag for holding back and getting his ducks in a row IMHO.

        Now, given the conceits of the show before Chuck can have that talk he’ll probably have to rescue Ellie, delaying the talk yet again, but AGAIN we’ll be asked to buy that this makes Chuck a bad guy for not wanting to rush an important conversation or pile on at the wrong time. If you buy all of Sarah’s missed opportunities to tell Chuck of her fears or feelings, or stopping Chuck from sharing his when she had to focus on the mission don’t make her somehow responsible for Chuck straying or the angst it caused them both, then Chuck needs some leeway to find what he feels is the right time for an important conversation.

        Just my opinion.

  6. jason says:

    odd direction the boards are going with this lying, to me the chuck lies are so ‘over scripted’ in the show and another sign of just poor story telling, and that the lies are going to lead to the ‘death’ in the final, and chuck will learn his lesson.

    I don’t understand why fedak rehashed the sham relationship in 3.17, about half the fan base really doesn’t mind shaw that much & found the sham skit funny which I think was the intent, the other half went WTF was that?

    I am sort of indifferent at this point, I think the ending of 3.19 is going to leave me in a far worse mood than either the lying (which was so overdone the last few eps that it has to be the lesson of the back 6 arc) or the sham rehash scene.

    Problem with the lying in the back 6, I thought it was one of the lesson’s of the first 13 also – “sarah – give me this one lie and I will never lie to you again?” What happened to that – sounds like just another lie to me?

    At some point, those of us unhappy have got to realize that this show’s story in season 3 simply was not our cup of tea. Many of the bloggers here do not fall into that category and really somewhat liked season 3, I feel sorry for them in a sense, the constant whining of so called fans like me have got to get annoying after a while – sorry – at this point – the series ‘chuck’ seems more like a memory of a love lost rather than a torrid affair – this blog seems to be more a way of healing the loss than celebrating the passion.

    I hold out hope that 3.18 / 3.19 will surprise me and leave me excited about positively reuniting with the show’s direction – will know soon enough – 5 days or so.

    • Crumby says:

      I agree that the lying issue was supposed to be resolved in the first 13 episodes.

      It becomes annoying. I mean first Awesome’s breakdown over it, then the whole Hannah thing, then the Red Test thing…

      Why did they have to do this, again? Why did they keep do that to Chuck when he’s supposed to be the hero? I mean come on is supposed to be smart, he must have learn his lesson by now…

      • weaselone says:

        I was toying with the idea that Chuck’s lying in the back six doesn’t rest on him, but rather is a side effect of the Intersect. The lies in the 1st 13 were fairly broad based, but the lies in the back six have focused pretty tightly on the Intersect and related activities. Perhaps 2.0 has self protection mechanisms and is influencing subconscious pressure on Chuck to lie in order to protect itself. It’s unwilling to allow Sarah or other close to him to discover the danger it poses lest they convince Chuck to pursue a strategy to remove it. Similarly, it desperately tried to prevent Orion from finding out about its existence with a series of lies.

      • Crumby says:

        I have to say weaselone I love that idea. It’s genius.

      • Chuckaddict says:

        I’ve heard it hinted on a podcast that Chuck is not in control of the Intersect.

      • Crumby says:

        If that’s the case I just hope it doesn’t erase to much of what we’ve seen.

        Like in reality Chuck never wanted to be a spy, he re-intersected just because of the urgency of the situation, but never intended to be a real spy. The Intersect 2.0 made him want that.

      • lucian says:

        Weaselone – that would be genius, and likely to be far better than what we actually get. He is just insecure – particularly with Sarah and with his father, and therefore isn’t willing to be as open and honest as he once seemed to be.

      • lucian says:

        If the Intersect 2.0 really is protecting itself, we’ll know it when Chuck starts calling it “my precious”.

    • atcdave says:

      Jason and Crumby, I agree entirely about the lying. That may be why it irks me so much; the lessen shoud already have been learned. At this point, it simply doesn’t reflect well on Chuck.

      It could be interesting if the Intersect is causing some of this. Too funny: “My precious!”

      • weaselone says:

        Chuck generally takes every opportunity he has to protect Sarah, regardless of the cost to him. That includes doing things that would risk her affection for her. See shooting Shaw as an example That’s really the only justification he needs for the lie. Yes, he’s lying to Sarah when he promised not to, but he’s protecting her and in his mind that trumps everything.

        Plus, he’s a guy and this sort of thing comes naturally to a large chunk of that population. The want to be seen as strong and invulnerable be others, particularly the people that depend on them.

      • weaselone says:

        Which doesn’t mean I think Chuck should be lying to Sarah.

      • atcdave says:

        Good save weaselone!

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        Well then Sarah should lie to him about her feelings to protect him. Because obviously it’s putting him in more danger than not. So they should just break up.

      • weaselone says:

        How so?

        Sarah’s lied about her feelings for Chuck throughout the entire 3 seasons. Despite this, Chuck has placed himself in danger numerous times on her behalf, including locking her in Castle and extracting her boyfriend from a Ring facility.

  7. weaselone says:

    So I’m sort of curious what everyone thinks of the Chuck and Sarah characters at this point in time.

    Sarah – She seems to have completed her evolution into spy barbie. She now appears to be absolutely perfect. A kick butt spy who has Chuck’s back in everything, a fantastic lover, supportive, open, honest, caring and all of those issues she had apparently have disappeared.

    Chuck – The old open, honest guy has apparently vanished. He’s lying and I might add taking it to ridiculous extremes to the people he cares about. He’s still caring and understanding, but something fundamental in the character seems to have shifted. I have no doubt he’ll pay the price for his recent actions and he’ll do something incredibly heroic and likely nearly suicidal in order to redeem himself, but he seems more like Cole than Chuck.

    All this sort of leads into the questions of whether the Sarah character is interesting on anything other than a purely superficial level at this point and what exactly the perfect woman sees in the new Chuck that makes him worthy. Sarah’s already rejected Cole, so why stay with the new corrupted, albeit still heroic version of Chuck? Where did all of Sarah’s issues go and why is her utility now reduced to showing skin, providing fire support and timely rescues and dealing with Chuck’s problems?

    • jason says:

      the concept of ‘overscripting’ the lies and / or the sarah’s perfection of the back 6 leads me to thinking the same concept is what caused us to love CS in season 1 & 2, the ‘love’ they seemingly struggled for was ‘overscripted’ too, right from the ballerina scene and subsequent date scene on.

      I don’t know if the show needs to find balance in theme, or if the show should continue to overscript – and if so, what is the next suitable issue to overscript. I would prefer balance, or just overscript the CS love and see if that sells or not, I would guess we are in for something different than that however in s4?

      • weaselone says:

        You’re right. They hammered the “trust” issue to death in certain episodes last season. I just think at some point in a season and within an individual episode things can reach a critical mass where it just starts to grate on fans. It’s especially irritating when you thought the issue had already been addressed and brought to a resolution. I was under the impression that Chuck’s excessive lying was brought to a close in the front 13 and that he was going to be open and honest with Sarah following his appeal to her in 3.12, but I guess he was just saying anything he could think of to convince her to come back to him.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Weaselone, Kev sort of addressed this and I had a reply on the First Reactions thread. Where in s1/s2 they tended to, as you say, beat an issue to death for an episode, two at the most, these things were mostly resolved quickly. The PLIs were 1-2 episodes, the trust was a few discrete episodes, as was the kick the puppy angst. This season they’ve been drawing out the Chuck and guns issue since the first episode, the breakup angst lasted for 11, the PLI’s combined covered 7, and now the lies has covered nearly 12 if you assume that started with Nacho Sampler. Chuck’s first kill is now probably going to cover about 9, and evil/zombie Shaw will cover 8. It is because these things never seem to be resolved in an attempt to milk them for drama that they start to become more tedious than anything else. I thought it was confined to the PLI writing, but now I’m seeing it elsewhere.

        As for spy Barbie, I thought they almost had the balance right in Role Models, where Sarah would get her dander up on occasion. They sort of had the right idea with the interrogation scene by showing Sarah was still not being totally open with Chuck, but that was played mostly for comedy. They almost had a good point for some Sarah issues, but glossed over it when Chuck suggested her name for Shaw’s password (obviously, to me at least, referring to her revealing her real name to Shaw while he still called her Sarah). It wouldn’t take much, just a few “space” arguments about the new living arrangements or needing some alone time. What did Sarah do with her nights before she spent them watching Spies Like Us?

        I think we’re going to see some drama over the spy wills, but my guess is it will be Chuck violating Sarah’s trust by reading it to find out more about her. If he turns it around on her and asks why she can’t share something of herself when she’s alive it could give us some Sarah reality. Either that or one of them (Chuck or Sarah) will be possibly “killed” in a finale cliffhanger.

      • Crumby says:

        I’d hate to see Chuck read Sarah’s will.

        Sarah could also read Chuck’s in order to find out what he’s hiding from her.

        I’d hate that too though.

      • Merve says:

        Chuck’s lying never bothered me in the front 13, which is why Hannah calling him out on it didn’t work for me. In the front 13, Chuck lied because he had to.

        Chuck’s lying is bothering me a little now. His lies in this episode were largely unnecessary. He didn’t gain anything by lying to his dad, and enough time has passed since Sarah’s “I love you” that he’s no longer sparing her feelings by keeping the truth from her.

        On the plus side, based on the promo, it seems that in the season finale, Chuck finally does come clean with Sarah.

        On the subject of Sarah, I think that the spy Barbie label is a little premature. From time to time, it’s alright to have an episode where we don’t delve into her issues. Chuck, Ellie, and Lester had enough issues to fill the episode up anyway. The fear that Sarah’s development is complete now that she is open and honest is reasonable, but I think that there are still issues to explore with her character. She still has massive abandonment issues, for instance. We still don’t know everything about her past. Sarah’s character development might take a bit of a backseat in the finale,

      • Merve says:

        but I think that it will be explored again next season.

      • herder says:

        Merve, nice to be able to push an issue off to next year without great worry isn’t it.

      • Merve says:

        If you mean that it’s nice that the show has been renewed, then yes, it is.

      • weaselone says:

        Sorry, I played up the spy Barbie thing a little much…I’d also toyed with using Stepford girlfriend. My excuse is humor. If the show can get away with it, why not me?

        You’re right, I don’t expect Sarah to remain perfect in the next season and I’m sure her abandonment issues, etc. might come back.

        As for the wills. I think Sarah uncovering Chuck’s secret by reading his will would actually be an interesting piece of drama. It sort of balances Chuck’s lying with a questionable act by Sarah showing the two of them both have a bit of growing to do.

      • atcdave says:

        I’m glad for your last comment weaselone, your “spy barbie” stuff was really beginning to tick me off. They did massive character damage to Sarah in the front 13 episodes this season. I’m OK with building her back up again. And I’m certain we’ll see some flaws again soon. We could even argue her going behind Chuck’s back to intimidate information out of Morgan wasn’t eactly ideal behavior (but it sure was funny!). In S2 they had built Sarah up to epic (more specifically “angellic”) proportions right before the Mauser incident. I don’t think they ever intend to leave any character unsoiled long-term.

      • ChuckNewbie8 says:

        ditto Dave.

      • BDaddyDL says:

        I dont know if this has been said, wow there are a lot of comments the last 2 days, but i think they are destroying Chuck a little so that he looks even better Monday.

    • Crumby says:

      I don’t find the way Sarah has evolved since Other Guy that much weird.

      She still doesn’t know what Chuck is hiding from her. The lies she’s seen have reasonable explanations, and she’s always been quickly forgiving of his errors. We’ve seen that she doesn’t approve of his lies and she’s told him.

      She’s trying to open up. Like she says in Honeymooners “I can’t fake this. Not with you.” So she wants her relationship with Chuck to be different and his facing the danger of their jobs. That’s both the reason of her ILY and spy will.

      She always had his back. She’s the one who find Orion in the first place. She gave him his Stanford Degree. She tried to protect him from Jill on a personal level before she knew she was fulcrum. And I’m sure there are plenty of other examples.

      Finally, her issues probably hadn’t disappeared but they’re just not brought up. Like what if she had been the one with the health condition? Maybe she would have lied too. But nothing his happening to her, except for her relationship with Chuck, so it’s hard to say.

      As for Chuck, I don’t know. All I have is questions at that point. But I like your idea of the Intersect protecting itself and influencing Chuck’s lies.

      • weaselone says:

        I think it’s just the perfection that’s bothering me. The drama in their relationship seems to stem largely from Chuck, which makes him significantly less sympathetic as a character even if he has also stepped up in this relationship in many ways. As noted, his reaction to Sarah’s initial refusal to move in and his writing of his spy will at the end of episode are as big a shift as Sarah has made in opening up, but it would be nice to see Sarah be somewhat less than the ideal woman.

      • Crumby says:

        I hear you weaselone.

        Chuck not pressuring Sarah to say ILY was also a big gift, when it obviously bothered him.

    • JC says:

      Honestly I like seeing this side of Chuck. We’ve seen three seasons worth of Chuck being kicked around and him just taking it. I loved him calling out his dad about leaving. I wouldn’t be surprised if him lying to Sarah isn’t played out about his fear of her leaving.

      As for Sarah I still think she’s being written to serve the story more than anything. But that’s a product of her character still being somewhat of a blank slate compared to everyone else.

      • Crumby says:

        Chuck called out his dad when he first went to him in his trailer too last season.

        It doesn’t excuse his lies.

        I think something like “Dad I downloaded the Intersect because I can help people this way and that is what I want to do with my life. You can either support me or leave like you know well how to do it, but I won’t appologize for making my own choice with my life when you choose not to be any part of it by leaving us, again.” would have done it better than lying.

      • JC says:

        I’m making excuses for his lies.

        What I’m saying is I understand them when it comes to his father. You don’t get to be a parent when you feel like it. Orion wasn’t there for him and then strolls back into his life acting like a father when it suits him. From personal experience I can tell you Chuck’s actions are very believable.

        As for his lies with Sarah, well I think some fans are looking at him the same way Sarah did during those first 13. Jumping to the worst possible conclusion and running with it.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Good point JC. Papa B also didn’t show much faith in his son, basically saying to him he’d be useless on a mission without the intersect.

      • Crumby says:

        You know JC, I didn’t see that scene this way before. But it does make sense.

        Chuck desperately trying to keep the Intersect part form his father through his succesive lies, so that he wouldn’t have to explain himself and his choices to someone that doesn’t even bother to be part of his life.

        I guess they just overdone it, you know.

        Having Chuck simultaneously lying to everybody about his health, telling only Morgan about his dream and lying to his father about the Intersect… It was hard to take.

      • JC says:

        No worries, everything with his dad hit somewhat close to home with me. So I saw it as a natural reaction to the situation.

        But you’re right the show does have tendency to hit you over the head with things. Especially now with the lies.

        I just try and look at things from the character’s POV. Only telling Morgan makes sense because he’s the one person who never questioned Chuck’s motivation. He understands him better than anyone. Look at the last two episodes, Morgan asks Chuck why he didn’t tell Sarah but he already knows the answer Chuck’s going to give.

        I hope they get C/S to that point but it doesn’t happen overnight.

      • Crumby says:

        I would have agreed with him going to Morgan last week. But I think Tooth resolved that by having Sarah believing Chuck and coming back for him. She didn’t give up.

        But the issue was that it was about Shaw and he didn’t want to worry Sarah.

        But you helped me understand his lies to his dad. The only thing that irks me now is what irks me in Nacho Sampler, Mask or Fake Name: not his motivations to lie but the way he does it.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Yes the little twist of the knife “You know me, I wouldn’t lie.” or “There are no secrets between us.” is always a bit painful.

      • JC says:

        The problem is when it comes to the spy world nobody believes Chuck without question except for Morgan. In vs Tooth Sarah wasn’t convinced at first but Morgan was on board without question. Sarah was convinced after the fact so I don’t blame him for going to Morgan in Living Dead. He has to explain himself or his actions to everyone except Morgan.

        Everyone excepts Chuck to trust them without question but when it comes to them trusting Chuck that’s a different story.

      • cas says:

        Well if he keeps lying like that then pretty soon even Morgan will start to question him.

      • JC says:

        If we go by that then nobody should believe a word Sarah, Orion, or Casey says.

  8. Crumby says:

    My guess is that we’re gonna learn how much Chuck is special from an Intersect POV in the finale.

    There’s a scene of a room with Chuck’s picture on the screen. I haven’t seen it well, but it looks like someone his lecturing or debriefing something about him.

    And there also a scene of little Chuck and computers.

    What if something happened to him when he was a child?

  9. AngelTwo says:

    Weaselone, et. al.:

    I don’t think Sarah is the “perfect girlfriend,” a “spy Barbie” or a spy Stepford Wife at all. She’s actually totally in character. She gives up NOTHING she doesn’t feel she HAS to give up about herself. Everything moves at HER speed, just as in Season 1/2. And she REACTS, not acts.

    She agreed to move in with Chuck, but only AFTER Chuck started freaking about them turning into The Turners.

    She told Chuck she loved him, but only AFTER being guilted into it by the shrink, who asked her if she had ever told Chuck what she was telling him.

    She gave Chuck her spy will, but only AFTER Papa B made a big deal about spies having someone to mourn them.

    And best of all (at least from the consistent-character sense), Sarah continues to demand total honesty from Chuck even while withholding it from him. I’ve been pretty hard on TPTB about Season 3, but they seem to be getting the Sarah side of the relationship equasion pretty well.

    As for Chuck, well, we could question his disclosures to his Dad, but there are clearly still abandonment issues there. Chuck needs to learn the lesson he taught Sarah: Papa B’s sins are his own, not his.

    As for his honesty with Sarah, well, I still don’t know how anyone could really expect him to say anything after what Sarah said at the end of Tooth. And he started Living Dead going to Morgan about the Shaw dream. You COULD make the case that he didn’t want to tell Sarah until he was sure because he didn’t want to worry her; after all, Shaw DID try to kill her. It was Morgan who actually talked about the existing intimate relationship.

    I don’t know any real relationship that is based on mindless blurting out of “facts” to your partner. We all edit ourselves because we care about the person we love. We just don’t dump EVERYTHING on them whenever it suits us and makes US feel better.

    But, of course, we then get the silly Casey scene, which is problematic because I thought Chuck gave Sarah “permission” to be with Shaw in Mask. Why should we believe now that he’s shocked to find out they were in the relationship he told Sarah was okay to be in…and the one he briefly had with Hannah?

    More Season 3 silliness, frankly…

    BTW, I checked around my office about the Tiffany earring thing. The women I spoke to fell into four broad categories: ew-ew, ick; I’d have traded them in for something else; there are different rules for Tiffany things; and, geez, they’re earrings, not a wedding ring. So I don’t think there’s any real consensus out there about this point.

    • 904 says:

      Very thoughtful points.

      As for the Castle scene:
      1. I fall back on Ernie, et al’s take. It was played for humor and fell in line with Casey’s role as in the relationship. No biggie to me.

      2. I know my fiance has had relationships other men, even men I have met and might even be likeable. That does not mean I enjoy hearing about specifics of the relationship. And I think that’s a universal emotion, so we can relate to the discomfort of both Chuck and Sarah, even if Chuck understood and supported the relationship. I don’t think he’s shocked, but he always would like to believe that Sarah was chaste with Shaw, much as a lot of people would rather ignore or pretend their partners knew of no one intimately before them.

      • AngelTwo says:

        904, the problem with playing it for humor is that Shaw DID try to kill Sarah. I mean, even for Casey, that should be out of bounds.

        And for viewers, it makes the jokes not only cheap, but really vulgar and undercuts the supposed seriousness of Other Guy.

        As for Chuck’s reactions, again, you hear him claim it was “all business.” It’s just another case of Season 3 mindlessness where they let the plot or the scene of the moment kick what you’ve seen in previous episodes to the metaphoric curb.

        Chuck (the show) didn’t used to be that disrepectful of its own canon. And the problem with making fun of past “truth” is that viewers begin to doubt what they see presently and that makes EVERY story implausible.

        Now that both Bryce and Shaw are undead, how long will it be before it turns out Roark isn’t dead or Vincent is still alive? And was Graham really blown up by the fake intersect in First Date?

        And, come to think of it, how do we know that Sarah DOESN’T have an Intersect? After all, we just heard Papa B say he’s never wrong…

      • weaselone says:

        Wait, Vincent’s dead? NOOOOOOO!!!!!

      • Merve says:

        Vincent “died” and “came back to life” so many times that it was hard to keep track. He was like a bad horror movie monster. (I mean that in a good way; I quite liked Vincent and hope to see my favourite undead Chuck character back at some point.)

      • atcdave says:

        You know Imhotep can only be destroyed by a very specific procedure…

    • weaselone says:

      AngelTwo, I have to say I don’t really disagree with your position, I’ve just read a few too many posts excoriating Chuck for his lying, but gushing over Sarah’s virtues. The whole spy Barbie, Stepford thing is really only in regards to 3.17. where objectively the woman is pretty overwhelming both in regards to knocking blades out of the air with a thrown hatchet, playing the role of Chuck’s conscience and being forthright, open and emotional with him. I know Sarah has problems and I fully expect to see them come up again, but many fans have a selective memory regarding the characters and their a strong temporal bias as well.

      As I pointed out, outside of withholding the danger posed by the Intersect in order to shield her from pain and worry, Chuck’s been fairly awesome with Sarah. He’s been understanding, kind, affectionate and the man cleans under stress. If Morgan teaches the guy to cook, we’ve got a winner.

    • joe says:

      Ooohhh! Never have we been in so much agreement, AngelTwo. Honest is too often used as a blunt weapon (and sadly, in real relationships it’s done destructively, without Casey’s unintentional humor, too). It’s not so much that truth is overrated, it’s that one’s words must be tempered.

      • AngelTwo says:

        Yeah, let’s she what happens when Sarah asks Chuck: Honey, do my knive holsters make my ankles look fat?

        If he answers honestly, he’s a dead man… 🙂

  10. cas says:

    Got this from chuck tv comments..Not a bad idea.

    So here’s my prediction. At least one of the five major characters will die, Ellie will find out Chucks secret, and the Buymore will be no more. Unfortunatley, the show runners are going to pull the old dream sequence story line out of their bag to reset everything for next season. I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t reset everything back to before Shaw arrive in the first place, before Morgan finds out, and definately before Chuck and Sarah got together. That way next season start out on a fresh slate and we can return to the old questions of when will Morgan/Ellie find out and when will Chuck/Sarah get together?

    qumad101 says:
    May 19, 2010 at 7:27 am
    You’re good! But whatever happens I’m still a fan of the show.

    C/S says:
    May 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm
    Thats pretty good. Then the last 2 minutes would be Chuck waking up from his dreams and we will back in the beginning of The final exam when Sarah shows up to tell him of his mission. That would be the boldest RESET ever.

    • Josh says:

      next season will probably be the last considering ratings, I ‘m sure Fedak and co would rather get paid for 22 episodes rather than 13, so nah, I don’t think they will erase half a season.

      That plus my TV won’t survive the 25 floor drop if they go there :p

    • atcdave says:

      I strongly doubt they would go that route. The whole “Dallas” dream season is like a bad joke for TV writing.

      That said, They have made a big deal of “Chuck’s vivid dreams” the last few weeks. I wouldn’t be shocked if some portion of the story turned out to be a dream. (cough, Shaw’s alive, cough).

  11. andyt says:

    Hi folks, I think this highlighting of Chuck’s deceptions in the last two episodes is also a call back to the season one points that Sarah had to teach Chuck about keeping certain information secret. One of her first lessons to Chuck in the Pilot was not to tell his friends or sister about the Intersect because it could endanger them. I don’t believe that Sarah is upset with Chuck lying to Ellie or those who don’t know that he is a spy. She is unhappy because he is keeping spy related info from her. She seemed particularly upset about the Shaw revelations as she would be considering that he tried to murder her. On a different topic I am much more interested in the fact that no one until now has brought up that the Intersect actual seems to kill its users by frying their brains. For seasons 1 and 2 no one seemed concerned about Chuck’s mental state, and Beckman was perfectly willing to upload 2.0 into Bryce apparently without a “governor”. How did Shaw know that you need this piece of equipment? If only Stephen knew about the effects then only someone close to him would know this, In fact his mental problems might be the reason for mom leaving, but then she would know about the governor right? Just a thought I have had over the last few days.

    • atcdave says:

      I’d noticed that too Andy. Perhaps Orion and the Ring know something government doesn’t. Of course, Dr. Dreyfuss had an idea of what was wrong. It may be that the operational part of the government (NSA, CIA, etc.) sees it as a maintenance issue and doesn’t really care. I don’t mean that entirely in the cold way it sounds, just that operations would tend to leave maintenance to scientific and medical divisions. (as an air traffic controller I seriously don’t care how my equipment works or what its maintenance schedule is, we have a separate unit for that). It then becomes a typical bureaucratic screw-up that the intelligence agencies slapped a top secret label on the project and never even told technical that they were operational with a human Intersect.

      • andyt says:

        You could be right. It could be only a bureaucratic “snafu”. I lean to a more mythological explanation. Why did Mama B. leave? Maybe she left because Dad was having these mental issues, even with the governor, she would certainly know about it. Or these mental problems tie into Beckman’s statement earlier in the year about Chuck now being dangerous. Just trying to figure it out

  12. odysszeuss says:

    some nice charah moments in 3×17…


  13. Gord says:

    Great post, but then I would expect nothing less.

    One of the things that has really impressed me about the Chuck/Sarah dynamic lately is that Sarah knows Chuck is lying to her but loves him anyways. Chuck has been primarily lying to spare Sarah worry and pain, and while that doesn’t make it right it does make it more understandable.

    We know he was about to tell her the truth at the end of Tooth when she dropped the I love you bombshell on him and he just couldn’t take that moment away from her.

    Now he might be holding off to tell her until he gets the governor from Papa B. That way he can say that there is nothing to worry about the device will keep him safe. He can tell her he didn’t want to worry her, and I think she would accept that.

    Of course judging by the promos it looks like he is going to have to come clean with her before he gets the governor.

    As you said, the truth has a tendency to come out on its own.

    • joe says:

      Precisely, Gord. It does come out, especially between Chuck & Sarah.

      I’m starting trust the two of them to not let the other down. And I think that’s because they really do trust each other. It’s been a slow process – a long time coming.

      I wonder now. Does this parallel my own trust in TPTB? Maybe it does.

  14. Pingback: Episode of the Week: Chuck vs The Living Dead (3.17) | Chuck This

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