From Invested Viewers
Frequent commenter AngelTwo put the following pixels to your screen:
Seriously, though, maybe we’ve also created a post topic for someone here: Top Ten scenes you want to see explained by Chuck and Sarah during a clip show.
I think that was a fantastic question. And that was seconded by an anonymous poster, who thought three questions to be asked of TPTB would be about right.
I agree. But I wouldn’t limit it to 3.
So let me ask this. If you had Chuck, Sarah, Casey and the General over for a nice dinner party, what questions would you ask them? And separately, what would you ask Josh Schwartz and Chris Fedak if they were to respond right here in this blog?
My first question is to TPTB, and I would love to see it addressed in a flashback. Did Langston Graham set up Sarah to kill Evelyn Shaw intentionally, or did he know who did?
Okay. No answers now. Just questions! Dave and I are going to have a 1000 Costa Gravan Peso bet riding on seeing (or not seeing) the answers to at least some of these in S4!
Oh, in fact I may live dangerously and make it 2000. 😉
– joe
amyabn
atcDave
Ernie Davis
Faith
joe
thinkling
Chuck This 
I was Mr Anonymous. :).
1. Who did Sarah really choose at the end of Am Hero? a)DC b)Shaw c) Chuck d) left for interpretation
2) In final exam, If Casey had not been there, Would Chuck have shot the mole or would he have stayed frozen? I know Chuck lowered his gun but he did that in Paris as well and that was before the mole was about to pull his gun.
3) What was it exactly did Gen B mean at the end of Angle de la Muerte? (i think that was it)something along the line.” They’re not ready, they need to know”
Hi, Elias. I don’t recall seeing your handle before, but see what happens when you speak up? You help start a great thread!
Fun, too. 😉
Thanks.
Something I’d like to know would be: “What was Sarah’s intentions in Final Exam when she gave Chuck his Red Test orders at the restaurant?”
I just wrote about it yesterday, and I still can’t agree with myself on how to interpret that scene.
Most definitely want some explanation of Sarah’s anger at the beginning of Crown Vic. Was she angry that she stayed? That she didn’t go? Was it about giving up a romance (of a sort) with Bryce that she could have for love that she thought she couldn’t with Chuck? Or was there a time lapse from the end of Nemesis and she DID go and came back?
Most perplexing scene of the first season, maybe the entire show.
Great idea, AngelTwo. Brilliant. I hope they DO do the clip show. Needlees to say, my choice for more Chuck-Sarah exposition: The platform scene. What the hell were EITHER of them thinking. Of course, I doubt TPTB will go there because THEY can’t explain it. That’s why we saw so little of it.
But we can dream…
I probably have a dozen scenes I want answers about, but I am, if nothing else, consistent: What in heavens name happened at and after the rehersal dinner. I’d find it hilarous to hear TPTB give Chuck and Sarah dialogue to thread THAT needle. No, we never got around to making love, but…
Or would they claim that Morgan also stole Chuck’s ENTIRE box of condoms?
Great idea, by the way, Angel. If TPTB are smart, they WILL create a clip show.
I think that should be the first question because things got weird from that point. Ring was kind of the beginning of Season 3.
Precisely.
Ernie submitted a lengthy post back in the day backing the assertion you made in your last sentence.
I’ll fill in why they never got around to making love after the rehearsal dinner: because as Casey said there was an open bar, they all got drunk and passed out. 😉
See, easy. They were after all celebrating several things: marriage, Intersect gone, crippling blow to Fulcrum. Time to party hardy. 🙂
You know what, SWnerd, that’s the best explanation I’ve heard so far. And it would explain Sarah’s sardonic look at the beginning of Ring when Beckman asks Chuck his plans and he says he wants to get a Champagne buzz and a slow dance with his date at the wedding… 🙂
I always have mixed feelings on clip shows. I hate when they are a substitute for an actual “new” episode. But as I understand they are usually episodes tacked on to an order at the last minute; like if sometime in early April NBC had said “can we get one more episode to fill out our schedule?” So they’re often thrown together with whatever portion of the cast is actually available at the last minute. Since Yvonne seems to run back to Australia at every opportunity it seems unlikely we would actually see Sarah if we ever had a clip episode of Chuck.
Too bad, since most questions seem to revolve around her. Obviously I would like to see some discussion of the events of S3. Especially in the form of some tearful apologies between Chuck and Sarah for all the hurt they caused each other during that period. As long as they don’t play that garbage for laughs again, tears seem more fitting.
dave – they’ve tried just about every conceivable way to explain / deal with season 3 chuck sarah, the same 20% of the audience that didn’t care about sham in the first place thought the retcon interrogation scene was funny. I would suggest the next crack they take at it, they try to retcon it all away somehow.
but seriously, season 3.1 thru 3.13 would be best if it goes away, the show would be best if brandon routh never steps foot on the set again – the c?’s or shaw’s reappearance will largely just re-open the wounds, which need to heal for the show to go forward.
I think many of the season 3 chuck sarah questions are answered, we just don’t like the answers. Does it really matter if shaw and sarah first had sex after 3.7 or 3.8 or 3.11? It doesn’t to me – and the truth of the matter, I think at this point Fedak would just as likely be making up an answer as we would.
I’ll say the radical thing here that I’m sure everyone will disagree with, but I’d accept a line from Sarah like “well he sure tried hard to get me in bed but he never did.” That could explain his hard press courtship and restore the lady’s honor all at once. But I truly don’t believe they intend to go there.
Dave, I specked the same thing. TPTB love to seem to give us certainty, then pull the rug out. By the conventions of the show we have a few kisses on the screen and now the narrative of a date in DC and a day spent in Shaw’s loft. Doing what is never explained, but we’re supposed to draw conclusions because after all Shaw is a stallion and has books.
I keep going back to when Shaw and Sarah were off grid for a day, and can’t help wonder if that was right after Chuck’s red test. At the end of Final Exam Sarah wasn’t particularly happy with Shaw, herself, or Chuck. Or spy life for that matter. So, think she’d be in the mood for a day-long romp with Shaw? Or maybe a day long existential spy crisis?
I won’t be surprised if/when Shaw is back if they pull something like this. Come on, Shaw can cause relationship angst that they can later resolve and TPTB can tut-tut about how we need to see the whole story before we judge. They’re not going to pass that up are they?
I do find it funny though that so few people entertain that possibility. Are we so far out of tune to think a man and woman spending time together; even romantic time together HAS to mean sex? And if any woman could insist her no means no it ought to be Sarah Walker.
But it does seem the writers mean for us to assume otherwise. I certainly don’t require Sarah to be a virgin, but why do we have to assume she’s a tramp? I do think they will try to ignore Shaw entirely in S4, which is just as well. But if it ever comes up again I would hope to be pleasently surprised by what we learn.
The Washington trip occured after TicTac. Sarah goes to Washington, you see her in cab. At the beginning of Final Exam, Shaw arrives at Castle shortly after Sarah and gives her the bag she left in the limo they took coming back from the airport.
As for the rest of it, gentlemen, please grow up. You’re sounding like the nuns I had in elementary school. 🙂
The day off-grid in Shaw’s bachelor pad wasn’t in DC, and they said it was March 22 which was Final Exam air date.
But American Hero begins the day after the end of Final Exam, so it’s hard to know the timeline. Chuck did say he’s been calling Sarah for a couple of days before seeing her at Castle, so she had time to spent the day with Shaw when he was in DC. Would be March 23 though, no?
We can’t know if it was after or before the red test unless they tell us, but I do wander why they choose that specific date?
I’m sorry Readyset but I think grow-up misses the mark entirely. Just the opposite, I see the assumption that time spent together equals sex to be insulting and adolescent. As I said, I don’t require Sarah to be virginal, but I don’t need to leap to conclusions either. I’ve had plenty of wonderful experiences that may or may not end in bed. We are making assumptions either way. And on a prime time TV show we probably always will be. I was disappointed in both Chuck and Sarah several times this season (on several different issues, not just this one). And I do admit to having very conservative values. So I’m just saying I would love to be pleasently surprised in this one case (by some later revelation), but I don’t expect to be.
Ernie and I both acknowledged we were out of step with main stream thought on this, but with Chuck attracting an older audience than many shows, we may not be as far out of step as you suppose. And why would you compare an old married guy to a nun? Do you think I hatched old and married? You know somehow the boy has to win the lady to get to old married status; to me, that was growing up.
Are we so far out of tune to think a man and woman spending time together; even romantic time together HAS to mean sex?
Dogs and cats are sleeping together. Dave, I agree with you entirely.
Oh yes, ReadySet, those nuns did a number on me too. Except it wasn’t anywhere near as much as these last 50 years have! 😉 I’ve sort of decided that the topic of human sexuality is as big as the ocean, and there’s plenty of room for interpretation.
And I think TPTB like to tweak us on occasion with a bit of their “Hollywood mentality”. ‘sok. We understand what they’re doing. But if there’s any one place in this world that’s completely fictional, it’s Hollywood. (Double 😉 )
So our question to TPTB is:
“Sarah Walker: Seduced by
that scumball we call Shawa “heroic” spy? – or not?” Is that right?In my opinion I would rather choose to believe that whatever went on between Sarah and Shaw in that loft or anytime was more physical than emotional.
I understand what Dave said about them being together doesn’t mean they have to BE together but if they spent that day talking about their feelings, that means they had more of a intimate connection which is much harder to digest than any physical encounters (which are still pretty of gag worthy).
Unfortunately the name reveal kind of blows this idealized notion out of the water, which is why it is for the most part the only thing I’m unwilling to ever forgive TPTB for and why I can’t force myself to watch Fake Name ever again.
I do agree swnerd, they made plausible deniability difficult. We are clearly meant to believe their relationship was physical, without actually stating it was.
I guess what I’m getting at is, best case scenario would have been Shaw pursuing but never quite catching her. At this point that is quite a stretch.
Just to clarify, my speculation is just that, that TPTB love to tweak us and pull a fast one, so it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility, though I don’t expect it.
In a way, the speculation would be even more of a betrayal, like the name reveal was supposed to show. Sarah’s real sin was turning to Shaw for emotional support rather than talking to Chuck. Shaw certainly used Sarah’s need for someone she could talk to insinuate himself, and to push Chuck away from Sarah.
I’d really like to know why there’s so much to talk about Sarah sleeping with Shaw or not, and nothing on Chuck and Hanna… I say: If she slept with Shaw, good for her!!! Chuck got to sleep with Jill and Hanna a few times… She deserves it! After all, she is a Woman..
Considering the reaction to Shaw and the reluctance to accept what they seem to be telling us went on between him and Sarah the statement by Adam Baldwin that the show wouldn’t jump the shark, “not even a superman shark, is that cryptic enough for you” seems naive. Where even the stars didn’t expect TPTB to go where they went it is a bit more understandable that fans are still having the same reaction.
That and the whole Hannah bit seems like it was written for the sole purpose of trying to give a reason for the Sarah/Shaw story that they wanted to tell. My guess, and it is only a guess is that CF and JS wanted the Shaw/Sarah story, after Comic-con and the reaction they got it was scaled back (and the Pink Slip angst amped up) then as they were shooting it got put back in which accounts for the sudden change of the relationship in Mask and Fake Name. That they were originally intended to be that way, but with the changes the foundation for the relationship was left out then suddenly rushed back in leaving everyone a bit confused.
I wonder if we will ever know the truth of what happened. So I guess that the question I would like to know is what were the episodes that Brandon Routh was originally supposed to be in, which were the added episodes from six to eight and why were they added (ehich storyline was expanded to require his appearance in the extra episodes).
Sole, I think you need to read back some of these posts. Myself and others have been clear, we were bitterly disappointed in Chuck. My first reaction First Class was anger, simply because Chuck was looking at Hannah at the end (sorry, I’m very strict on these things!). And I will never watch Mask or Fake Name again because of Chuck’s behavior in those episodes. I am slightly (very slightly) less peeved at Sarah, because she acted after Chuck, and we aren’t entirely sure what she did (although since the whole CRM my have started in her court, perhaps she deserves full equal blame).
But bottom line is; I was VERY disappointed in both main characters in the middle of this season. It is interesting we have posters who say “double standard” every time either character gets picked on and I don’t get it. My standards for an admireable character are high, but male/female does not figure into it.
Sole, this has been a rather unique discussion.
I don’t think that we’re picking on Sarah, actually. You see, more than a few of us don’t relate to C&S as role models or see ourselves in their shoes. They’re almost like our own kids. We have high expectations for both, and are quite willing to state when we think they’ve gone astray, even as we still love them. Chuck’s certainly not been spared that!
If anything, Schwartz and Fedak have been blasted for their inconsistencies and for the way they’ve ignored the details of their own creations. It’s been difficult to accept some of what we’ve seen, or take it at face value, and many have tried to make sense of it.
Not many understand the attraction that the Sarah-we-know might have had for
Shawhe who shall remain nameless.Well, since we’ve now been told that Sarah fell for Chuck in the pilot, a replay of some of the scenes that fall in her parameters (after fixing the phone, before defusing the bomb) would be great. And who doesn’t want to hear her talk about the ballerina scene? Did that affect her because it was Chuck doing something noble–or specifically because he was helping a father and daughter, which is something Sarah herself never experienced.
The writers could have a field day with that, I think.
I’m not so sure about a clip show, but I admit I did like the parts in Nacho Sampler where they sort of revisited the past with Chuck’s files and Sarah’s “Piece of Cake” comment.
I guess I wouldn’t mind them filling in some of the gaps with Chuck and Sarah in couples therapy or some other comic device. The interrogation scene, much as some hated it, was hilarious to me. It was Sarah Walker’s worst nightmare. She had to do it for the mission, but here was Sarah Walker speaking openly about her personal life, and a huge mistake in her personal life, to the last two people on earth she’d want to disclose that to. Add in that she clearly knows how Chuck, neuroses and all, is going to take it.
So upon reconsideration, maybe a clip show could work. Chuck and Sarah blow an op by arguing incessantly, Beckman sends them to therapy, and we get to see Sarah Walker have to open up and talk about her past and her feelings for Chuck (lots of potential there). Show individual perspectives with each in a one on one with the therapist, then a couples session where we get the “god’s eye” view of what really happened.
Great idea, Ernie…what could be a “generic” clip show can become creative using couples therapy…which, let’s face it, they both need to–as you say–fill in the gaps.
What I would like to know is what Sarah wanted to say and couldn’t because every time Chuck started speaking first. I lost count in S2. In S3, Sarah just gave up trying, I think. 🙂
You know, Ernie, not sure I agree with you that Sarah thinks her relationship with Shaw was “a huge mistake in her personal life.”
I think, as AngelTwo was saying in the thread that led to this one, TPTB really do want you to believe that Shaw was a real and honest and viable choice for Sarah. And of all the things they played the interrogation scene for (laughs, a bit of angst, discomfort, and even admission that they broke the ‘Sarah rule’) I didn’t see a hint of remorse from Sarah or feeling that she had made a mistake. It wasn’t played that way and there was nothing in the dialogue to hint at it.
And to TPTB’s ever-lasting credit, neither Chuck nor Sarah is ever shown hectoring the other about their romantic choices in Season 3. During the interrogation, Sarah clearly didn’t want Chuck to know specifics, she loathes talking about stuff she considers private and she knew the details would hurt Chuck, but I saw no remorse whatever. (Besides, the interrogation scene is built on something of a lie: Chuck KNEW the nature of the Shaw-Sarah relationship in Final Exam; he specifically asked Sarah if she was going to move in with Shaw. The interrogation scene tries to retcon that away…)
As hard as it is for the uber-shippers to accept, Sarah and Shaw had a good time with each other from (let’s say) the scene in Shaw’s apartment in Fake Name through the beginning of the date we’re shown in American Hero.
Did any of us want to see it happen? Probably not. Did it play logically on the screen? Absolutely not. Did Sarah come to hate Shaw? Yes, but only because, you know, he DID try to kill her… Was her relationship with Shaw “different” from what she had with Chuck? Well, Sarah herself said it was.
But TPTB have given us no indication at all that we should feel that Sarah thinks she made a mistake getting in and being in a relationship with Shaw. We probably shouldn’t project that on the relationship because it only makes season 3 even harder to figure out…and season 3 is already nearly impossible to figure out.
Well considering how willing Sarah was to dump Shaw for Chuck at the end of American Hero I’d contend she saw Shaw as settling at the very least, if not a mistake. By the time he tried to kill her I’d say she considered it a mistake.
Liz,
I forgot about the “moving in together” line…given what we actually knew at that point about S/S…I thought it was a weird thing to say…and then of course, Chuck’s insistence that they were in DC for biz only during Casey’s questioning.
I also think you’re right that Sarah has no remorse about her r’ship (cept probably in retrospect) with Shaw but in her heart I do agree with Ernie that she knew she was settling with Shaw–as she intimated in Final Exam…maybe something we will learn if there is ever a clip/couple counseling show.
Ernie, not to put TOO fine a point on it, but the ONLY thing I am pretty sure you can’t say about the end of American Hero is that Sarah was particularly willing. Regardless of when you believe she decided (I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it was only AFTER Casey’s admission), the choice for her was NOT easy, painless or fast.
More to the point, though, I honestly and truly think you are misreading the duality of relationships that TPTB have been setting up all through the show. I don’t necessarily agree with them, but you can see that TPTB have set up two types of “valid” relationships.
1) There is the classic (so to speak) spy relationship. It’s fun, commited and romantic, but it clearly must take a back seat to duty and you must accept that it can end in a moment. That’s what Sarah had with Bryce, what she was having with Shaw and, in general, what Cole was pitching to her. Carina and Roan have said this is not “love” because the cardinal rule is that spies don’t fall in love. But they apparently can have something that looks, feels and acts like love within the bounds of their unique profession.
2) Then there is “real” love, the kind of things only “normal” people can have because spies apparently believe “normal” people never have to put duty first or are never faced with sudden loss. That’s the love Chuck and Sarah have and, one assumes, Daniel and Eve Shaw had. “Real” love between spies is considered unique and dangerous and something to be frowned on. (Hence Chuck’s fear of Beckman in Honeymooners and Beckman’s pro forma condemnation of it before she outs herself as a shipper.)
As I say, it is a somewhat warped view of things. But TPTB clearly have been working on this dual track since the pilot.
After losing Eve, Shaw clearly understood the difference. (He doesn’t seem to flinch about asking her if she is still in “love” with Chuck at the end of Final Exam, even as they are in a “spy relationship” together.) Sarah, on the other hand, learns the lesson in reverse. She thought she had a “real” relationship with Bryce but realizes it was a “spy relationship” after experiencing the real thing with Chuck. Hence her eventual claim to Chuck that her relationship with Bryce was “a mistake.” Sarah, as we know, has always wanted the “real” thing but has had some odd ways of getting it, nuturing it and (in the back six) functioning in a “real relationship.”
So there is is: “spy relationships” that look and act very much like the real thing, except for the duty and sudden death thing. And “real relationships” for “normal” people.
And why is this suddenly sounding like an eharmony.com commercial?
Ernie, a lot of this also goes back to the discussion you and I were having MONTHS ago, during the season, about why Adler gave Sarah the “spies don’t fall in love” line at the end of the fountain battle in Three Words.
Sarah says it because that is what she believes. (You know, only truth is told at the fountain…) And since she believe it, the only way she can be in love with Chuck is NOT to be a spy. Hence the justification for her pitching Chuck on a runaway in Pink Slip. And since Chuck gets most of his spy knowledge from Sarah, it’s why Chuck pitchs a runaway to her in American Hero. They’re spies and they’re in love and you have to choose one or the other.
And hence the supposed “ah, ha!” moment in Honeymooners when they decide they CAN be spies and be in love, in a “real relationship.”
It’s VERY tenuous logic, but it’s the only thing that you can hang Season 3 upon: Spies don’t fall in love. And if spies DO fall in love, they can’t be spies. So you run away (Pink Slip, American Hero, Other Guy) or give up (everything in between).
Oh my! Great comment (two of ’em, actually), Liz. But now you have me breaking my rule here by not limiting this to questions!
You touched on it, but we have to remember that the one time Sarah clearly called a relationship a mistake was in Crown Vic, and she was talking about Chuck. (Did she really call her relationship with Bryce a mistake too? I honestly don’t remember).
I think we have to discount some of Sarah’s words (yet again). The good side of this, is that we get to go with our feelings, and what we think the characters are feeling. We don’t have to hold them to what they say. 😉
And to pose this as a question to TPTB…
“Hey Fedak! Does Sarah *really* consider her relationship with Shaw to be a mistake before he tries to kill her???”
Liz, I think they made the dual track of relationships pretty clear, even in season 1 with Carina trying to seduce Chuck and with Sarah’s attitude in Crown Vic. That’s never bothered me particularly, though I’d contend, given Sarah’s comments about how Bryce would understand the seduction mission in Crown Vic, Sarah was aware of the kind of relationship they had at some level. The fact that she almost escaped Chuck the first time by going back to that type of relationship with Bryce parallels the Shaw relationship nicely, so it didn’t bother me that much that she’d seek it out again, aside from the character regression and the fact that Shaw was no Cole, let alone Bryce (who I still say is the aplha Chuck). The more troubling aspect was Sarah essentially giving up on Chuck, even as a friend and manipulating Chuck at Shaw’s request. I think the remorse from that was there from the end of Final Exam straight through when Casey told her he killed Perry.
While it’s always open to individual interpretation, I’m one of those who thinks Sarah had made her choice before Casey told her about Chuck’s red test. Hell she practically made it in Final Exam on the stake-date and again in American Hero when Chuck crashed her dinner date.
As for the topic at hand, did Sarah consider Shaw a mistake and did she show remorse, I read it that way, and of course she probably didn’t consider Shaw a mistake while they were involved, who does consider a SO a mistake till the relationship ends?
Joe-
I believe it was in Seduction when Sarah was taking Chuck to Castle for the first time, Sarah tells Chuck her relationship with Bryce was a mistake. It comes when Sarah is again putting Chuck off and he brings up her relationship with Bryce. And Sarah goes through the litany: Bryce was a spy. You are an asset. I have to protect you. And, besides, my relationship with Bryce was a mistake.
I think this goes to the heart of why we ALL find Sarah so fascinating as a character. As Ernie has so often delineated, Chuck is on a hero’s journey. And it is, if nothing else, well-trodden ground. We know the rules. Sarah’s journey seems to be getting out of an emotional maze she created for herself. And we don’t know what the maze looks like (and, sometimes, neither do TPTB, apparently, which is why they so often hit clunky notes…).
So if this post has to be in the form of a question, my question to TPTB is still the same: What the hell happened after the end of Colonel?
Ernie:
Well, there is that classic case in New York where a woman eventually marries a man who stalked her, burned her face with acid, and went to jail. So there’s no accounting for taste. The heart, as Chuck says, is a complicated muscle. 🙂
But since most people don’t face that situation, I THINK that TPTB suggest that Sarah is emotionally firewalled so that she COULD separate the relationship from the “you tried to kill me” thing.
Without putting TOO fine a point on it, Sarah seems rational, professional and dispassionate about Shaw’s murder attempt–until he brings up Sam. They actually give Shaw the dialogue that he KNEW that would set her off.
The implication, I think, is that Shaw somehow, weirdly, crossed the line there. You tried to kill me? Sure, I get it, all in the game. We’re spies. It’s what we do when we go rogue. But you bring our personal relationship into it? Hell, that’s breaking the rules of spying.
Bizarre, funhouse mirror stuff, of course–and almost impenetrable to those of us who don’t have the writer’s guides to the characters.
The emotional firewall thing may explain two of the things in Other Guy that were a bit of a disconnect for me. First was Sarah walking arm in arm with Shaw in Paris despite the fact that she knows she killed his wife and has decided to be with Chuck. I had thought that it was part of some unmentioned cover.
But secondly were her tears when he was saying he would kill her, it wasn’t the betrayal but the fact that someone she cared for was betraying her. If it was Beckman going over to the Ring the betrayal would be there but not the tears.
So what I am saying is that the arm in arm bit was real, she had seperated the spy action from their personal relation. Then when Shaw’s betrayal came it could still be a personal betrayal and not an unemotional spy betrayal. Does this make any sense?
Sarah doesn’t say Bryce was a mistake in that specific scene of Seduction you mentionned Liz. She only says “Bryce was a spy. You’re an asset. And my job is to protect you.”
I believe she only said Bryce was a mistake in the deleted scene from after Seduction, where Chuck and Sarah are having pizza and Chuck asked why Bryce is here.
Then Morgan arrives and has that funny line “How come you never accepted my friend request on my space?”
Forgive me, I misspoke on when Sarah said Bryce was a mistake. She says it to Casey in Hard Salami. The dialogue is:
Casey: You need me to spell it out? Fine, you fall for guys you work with. First Bryce, now our boy Chuck.
Sarah: Bryce was a mistake, and I haven’t fallen for Chuck.
Casey: Yeah, whatever you say. And just so we’re clear, sister, not interested.
Oh right! I loved that scene! That Casey is SO funny!
Herder–I think betrayal and abandonment is central to what Sarah thinks has happened to her during her entire life.
For real or for fake or by accident, every man she’s been close to disappoints her. Her father. Bryce, who apparently went rogue. Chuck on the platform in Prague. Shaw, after the fact. Even Graham, her mentor, who gets himself blown up, leaving her to play prim-little-girl to the hectoring Beckman.
Here is my queestion,
Why was her relationship with Bryce a MISTAKE if she already had an understanding that mission came first?
Was it because her love for Bryce was deeper than what we thought? Did she use to put love before mission, then after being heartbroken by Bryce, realized that it was a mistake to do that, that mission has to come in first before her relationship
Why are Sarah’s betrayal and abandonment issues made out to be more substantial then Chuck’s?
Cas, if my reading of the situation is accurate, TPTB are suggesting Sarah never knew there was something BEYOND what she had with Bryce. You can reasonable suggest that Sarah, who is totally a product of the system, simply bought what she was told: This is what spies can have, all they should have…
Then along comes Chuck — and that ballerina scene in the pilot only gets better and better, doesn’t it? — and she gets there’s something else, something more. She’s struggled with that reality since then: living through the cover relationship, doing crazy-in-love stuff like committing treason and almost shooting CIA agents, pitching a runaway, holding Chuck to an insanely pure standard. And they do give her that dialog in Role Models: I’ve been trained for thousands of situations in the field, but nobody ever told me how to have a real relationship.
The simple fact that she thinks you can be “taught” about relationship shows you she’s still pretty clueless. She thinks there’s a manual for love, too…
And don’t forget how TPTB want you to think spies think of themselves. There’s Casey’s really chilling line in American Hero about Chuck being different, “not killers like us.”
That’s pretty tough stuff when you think about it.
JC I would say because Chuck has Morgan and Ellie.
JC, Because Chuck at least had Ellie and Morgan. He HAS a family. Sarah is positioned as having no one, ever. Hence her admission at the end of Best Friends. And the emotional impact of Chuck telling her that he’s there for her.
And speaking of which, does anyone else besides me thing we’ll hear about Sarah’s mother in Season 4, too. After all, while Chuck was searching for his father in Season 2, Sarah’s dad pops up first. If TPTB keep to their track record, we might find Sarah’s mother before Mama B…
cas-
At the time she said Bryce was a mistake, she still thought he went rogue, and he betrayed everything she believed in, that’s what she said in Helicopter.
I think she regarded the relationship with Bryce as a mistake because she loved him, but later came to realize he didn’t return the feeling, or at least not in the same way.
But by that same measure, I do want to hear Sarah admit to her mistakes that hurt Chuck. She now claims to have loved him since the Pilot. So no matter what she thought she was doing right or wrong at the time, I would hope she can regret the things that caused him pain. Even if it was because of things she completely didn’t understand at the time. This does play both ways. Our boy Chuck claims to be the normal guy looking for the normal relationship. Well he’s the one who strayed first in First Class. And I cut no slack for misunderstandings, they are tragic, not an excuse.
I want the scene where Chuck and Sarah cry over all the grief they caused each other. Again, cause and blame are not the point. Their misunderstandings caused the ones they loved a huge amount of pain. That should be cause for pain and regrets. Of course they should move on from there quickly since there was never any intent to cause the other pain; but to this layman’s mind if you ignore something like that it can only fester. Admit your mistakes and get over it. (I’m not talking about full disclosure of all carnal activities, that is pointless and beside the point. I’m mainly talking about giving up on each other and moving on, when neither really wanted that).
I want the scene where Chuck and Sarah cry over all the grief they caused each other.
We’ve had the celebration. Chuck was always one to give Sarah some space (I don’t need to know who you were, because I know who you are. You’re a girl I’d like to share a hamburger with.). But Dave, you’re right. This is something I’d like to see too.
Maybe Chuck doesn’t need the catharsis, but a bunch of us still do. 😉
One of the scenes in “Subway” I find interesting is when Sarah first sees Shaw and says something like “Daniel” (with emotion). Clearly, we are supposed to believe she has positive feelings for the guy (and it doesn’t seem to occur to Sarah that this is the guy who drugged her so he could toss her painlessly off a bridge??). Of course, she did kill his wife, but still.
I took that scene as more of an emotional fear that “oh s***, he’s gonna try to kill me again.”
There’s hmm a pattern? That Sarah only calls Shaw and Casey by their first names when they are betraying her or something. Casey in Tic Tac when she was about to arrest him and Shaw in the car in American Hero and again in Subway.
That’s obviously if you buy that kinda thing.
I don’t really need a scene of Chuck and Sarah crying over the pain they’ve caused one another.
Also, my definition of stray doesn’t really extend to what happened at the beginning of this season save for the writers straying from the characters. Chuck and Sarah were done when they pursued their other interests. I might have misgivings about how fast they fell into their respective interests beds, but these events were tragic moments brought about by their mutual obtuseness.
Also, I found the comment that Sarah is not remorseful about her relationship with Shaw interesting. It certainly offers a contrast with Chuck’s relationship with Hannah which he quite obviously regrets on multiple levels. Maybe that’s an additional reason that Sham is harder to swallow than Hack.
Chuck had remorse because he was dishonest with Hannah, lied to her and couldn’t tell her who he really was.
Sarah didn’t lie to Shaw. I don’t think we can compare the two situations.
Hmmm, really? I sort of saw them both as relationships of convenience as attempts by the two of them to find substitutes for each other. I seriously doubt that Sarah was any more honest with Shaw in that regards than Chuck was with Hannah. Sarah didn’t even come clean with Shaw after she had decided to break up with him.
Yeah but Shaw knew what she did for a living and he knew she was in love with Chuck.
I think the fact that Hannah was a civilian is already a huge difference.
Before he broke up with Hannah, Ellie told him to things:
– she thought he still had feelings for Sarah;
– and she thought he felt dishonest.
He told her she was half right. And considering what he told Hannah when they broke up, I think the dishonesty was what he thought was true. And Ellie was half right because the reason of his dishonesty wasn’t Sarah but the fact that he was a spy.
He didn’t broke up because of Sarah, and because it was a relationship of convenience IMO. That’s why they insisted on making him realised in loved Sarah in Beard. He broke up because he could never be honest with Hannah, and rushed into that relationship, therefore hurting her. That’s where comes from the regrets I think.
Doesn’t mean I don’t think Sarah shouldn’t have regrets, but I just think that’s not exactly the same thing.
But Chuck and Sarah can certainly have the same regrets about the misunderstanding, about rushing into another realtionship and giving up on each other.
Great stuff from a lot of intelligent and caring people here.
My take, for whatever it’s worth, is that Sarah DID NOT believe her relationship with Shaw was a mistake.
That’s why she agreed to continue working with him, why she agreed to go to Paris with him, why she was seen comfortably with Shaw in Paris walking arm-and-arm although she had seemingly pledged herself to Chuck hours earlier in his apartment.
Sarah was completely blindsided by Shaw’s betrayal. Although she had recently learned she had in fact gunned down Eve Shaw, Daniel did a fantastic job of convincing her he was OK and that he didn’t blame or hold her responsible.
So, I don’t think she believed her time with him was a mistake until obviously he drugged her and planned to kill her. This is why tears streamed down her face. Betrayal she didn’t see coming, imminent death at the hands of a man she cared for, and the fact she would never see or talk to her beloved Chuck again. So she thought.
I’ll even venture to say that her (what some of us see as an ill-fated romp) relationship with Shaw was necessary to some degree. In her mind, it was a tool that helped prove Chuck’s love for her was the most real and sincere. Because whatever Chuck thought about the subject of her and Shaw, ultimately it had no bearing on Chuck’s desire or decision to want to spend the rest of his life with her. He loved and accepted everything about her.
Retroactive to Hard Salami, Chuck was the one male who never left her side no matter what. Even as single-digit seconds expired from what they believed was an explosive device.
Liz, I read the posts a couple of times, and my take is that Ernie wasn’t necessarily saying Sarah believes she made a mistake. But you can certainly glean that Ernie himself believes she did. And before Shaw tried to immobolize and murder her.
Liz, your argument that Sarah hadn’t made up her mind to choose Chuck before Casey’s admission is valid. There is no definitive proof either way until Casey bites the bullet, so to speak, and spills the truth to her.
Many folks, I guess including me, made the assumption that Sarah had chosen Chuck before Casey’s arrival when he said something about “speaking on his behalf and perhaps making a difference.” Sarah’s retort was, “Casey, that won’t be necessary.”
A lot of us heard that made an assumption based on what we wanted to occur. Sarah just as easily could have said that to Casey and meant it was too late and that she was going to Washington with Shaw.
And Liz, you’re right. It was not an easy decision for Sarah. Very conflicting and painful. In her mind, two great guys. Obviously in many of ours, just one. It was a slam dunk for Chuck, because we love Chuck and loathe Shaw – long before he tries to murder her.
She said to Chuck in Castle after he saved Shaw. “Chuck, I made a comittment, and not just to Shaw.” That doesn’t sound like a woman who had chosen Chuck.
Sarah has drifted to Shaw for two reasons. One, Chuck has not stepped up for her this season to the point we’re talking about. He’s been almost obscessed with becoming a spy. He’s stopped fighting for her, briefly found another brunette. And in his desire to become an agent, she believes he’s losing himself, his personality is changing, he’s losing and forgetting about the personality traits that made him great. The sweet, innocent guy she fell for. Killing on order was the Mariano Rivera hammer in the ninth inning.
Still, I think she did choose Chuck before Casey’s admission, and by then, Casey’s admission was the reverse hammer.
Chuck started stepping up again. The stake-date, rushing back to Burbank when he could have went anywhere in the world on the gov’s dime, appearance at the restaurant, protecting Sarah from the air attack and his rescue of Shaw because “YOU care about him so much,” his admission of love four times, his admission (and this is huge to a woman in my humble estimation) that she was right and he was wrong about Prague – and his torturous regret about that decision and subsequent desire to throw the new career away for her, and finally, the tank.
I think Sarah was going to choose Chuck in a close call, but Casey’s appearance at her hotel room was clutch – grand slam clutch.
So “Versus The American Hero” will be renamed to “Versus the CIA Bicycle” when the DVDs come out? Cause in all honesty, with all the ambiguity and retconning that’s pretty much it. Sarah jumped from Shaw to Chuck simply because Casey said he pulled the trigger. Good character that Sarah girl, really strong mentally. Puts a whole new twist to Chuck’s “should we tell him about us?” in the elevator in vs The Other Guy. Sucks that Sarah killed Shaw’s wife though, it robbed the show of a breakup scene. You know sorry Daniel, gotta run, I do want Chuck after all. Would have been Epic, especially if they did it in like Paris.
Gossip Girl would be proud of Sarah. Oh wait a minute…
Weaselone: I would suggest that Sarah never had to “come clean” with Shaw about the true nature of their relationship because he KNEW what it was. Hence the “I’m the safest guy in the world” line in Mask and, more telling, his “Are you still in love with him?” line at the end of Final Exam. Since they were in a relationship from the middle of Fake Name onward, Shaw asking that is a pretty tacit admission that he knew that he and Sarah were in what lizjames so convincingly describes as a “spy relationship.”
We also have Shaw’s actions in American Hero, where he is actually a bit surprised that Sarah would try to stop him from doing his “duty.” He acts within the parameters of the “spy relationship”: duty first and the other spy should understand that.
I know I am very late to this thread, but AngelTwo touches on an important point that follows lizjames previous post…
We were introduced to Shaw as a stoic and dutiful spy who has devoted his life to atoning for his wife’s death and his role in it (the recurring motif that when spies fall in love, someone gets hurt). Knowing that, why would we assume that he has fallen deeply for Sarah after his heartache over Eve? Thus, we shouldn’t be surprised by his reaction in American Hero when he asks (paraphrased) “would I trade my life to kill the people responsible for Eve’s death? Of course. This has been what I’ve been working for…” The Shaw and Sarah coupling is another incarnation in the mold of the spy relationship. Convenient, superficial, physically fulfilling, but ultimately unlikely to last because of the nature of the job.
The problem is that Sarah, while no more in love with Shaw than she was with Bryce, is trying to find an emotional surrogate to replace Chuck. This hopelessness, this desire to replace that connection she thinks might be gone, leads her to mistake Shaw’s interest, and particularly his presence and willingness to listen for something more. She’s even willing to ignore his flaws: lack of faith in the team, narrow focus, devotion to personal goals — the things that we hate about Shaw as a love interest.
As AngelTwo said, Shaw operates under the “spy relationship” assumption — he won’t let another Eve happen to him. Shaw leaves Sarah to fulfill his death wish without concern for Sarah’s feelings after she says “what if I don’t let you?” Here, Sarah is breaking that unspoken rule AngelTwo mentions.
This also is why he is able to methodically set Sarah up with vindictive logic and show no remorse. His foremost duty has always been vengeance for Eve.
But this event also sets up Sarah’s ultimate choosing of Chuck. Shaw has implicitly told Sarah she’s secondary to the mission. Chuck decides that because of Sarah, he must assist Shaw. Selflessness, to his own detriment. Advantage: our Chuck.
Sarah, still grappling with the emotional weight of the near-death of Shaw (hospitalized) and Chuck, responds favorably (she listens, smiles faintly, doesn’t change the subject) to Chuck’s follow-up from the date (the I love yous). She defaults to the “but I made a commitment line,” in a way that’s understandable. That is her status quo until compelled otherwise. And it’s interesting to note that she makes it clear that it’s “not just to Shaw.” She has de-prioritized her relationship with him, as he did to her. That Chuck doesn’t stop there, that he gives her a detailed plan, a way out, is what seals it for her. Winner: our Chuck.
I believe that she intended to meet Chuck at the train station (the photo on the nightstand being the purposeful symbol that breaks any tie.)
Love the analysis, 904. You have me thinking about Sarah in a slightly different way, now.
This is half-baked. But Sarah’s emotions seem to be a pendulum, swinging between “spy-relationships” and “Chuck” mode. We met her in S1 stuck in the former, saw her swing a few times (when Bryce appeared, when Cole appeared and again with Shaw) and then get pegged in “Chuck” mode for the last 7 of S3.
I admit that I’m still confused by that pivotal scene when Sarah tells Chuck that she “made a commitment, and not just to Shaw.” Why bring up Shaw at all, unless she still cares? All I can think now is that Sarah’s in the process of swinging back to Chuck mode, but isn’t quite there yet.
joe, 3.12, along with 3.7 & 3.8 just are not fun episodes to watch and try to make sense of from the ‘thoughtful’ shipper POV –
but, another POV might be her ‘not just shaw’ as her warming up to chuck rather than rejecting him, i.e. if it were just shaw, I would say yes to you, but there is more
another off the cuff remark, regardless of how 3.7 thru 3.12 were written, or acted, sarah appears miserable almost the entire time, except in 3.12’s beginning, when I think there was an honest attempt at trying to make things work with shaw … so her moving toward chuck within minutes, whether she picked him immediately or not was pretty remarkable, but her consternation might be more understandable than it appeared on first viewing, again to repeat, the shaw sarah love story fell flat on its face the entire arc.
Contrast 3.7 thru 3.12 sarah with 3.13 thru 3.19 sarah’s mood, demenour, reaction to the man she was with, etc – she went from depressed sarah trying to make things work with shaw in what appeared to be a near perversion, to a crazy in love school girl starting in 3.14
3.1 thru 3.6 could have set the stage for an epic 3.8 that would have fixed everything (and ali adler would have been more than capable of writing ‘that’ story), unfortunately, it set the stage for an epic failed arc of 3.7 thru 3.12 where things went from bad to epically, gamechanging worse, with the somewhat anticlimatic 3.13 that fixed everything. It wasn’t until 3.14 that I started to be convinced about the extent of the writer’s commitment to the CS story.
I interpret that line as Sarah saying that she was committed to being a spy. Remember, Chuck’s plan was to run away with her.
Joe,
I’d like to think that she said it because it’s true. Shaw isn’t the reason she’s going to Washington, Chuck is.
And I also think that she knows (and we know, because Chuck has a tendency to do this) that if she says “I made a commitment,” Chuck is going to immediately assume she’s referring to Shaw, not her new job. She’s clarifying that for him, because she subconsciously doesn’t want to break Chuck’s heart. She did the same in deflecting questions about her relationship with Shaw and her description of the DC trip as “meetings.”
Wow, an idea to lift me out of my Chuck torpor. I like it, AngelTwo. And it’s one of the few times that I’d root for a clip show.
The one that has always been a question for me is the fountain scene at the end of Lethal Weapon. It comes right after Sarah definitively (for her, anyway) tells Cole that she’s committed to Chuck. She clearly is waiting at the fountain to tell Chuck something. He then, as usual, runs over her with his self-absorbed babble about getting things out of his head.
The writers could have a lot of fun if they have Sarah say something like; “You know, Chuck, I wanted to tell you that I wanted to move in together for real. I thought we could make our fake relationship real and no one would know. But you never let me say anything…”
And, of course, they could tie it in to Role Models and that move-in-together bit of mini-angst…
Great to see you here, ReadySet! Between you and Liz, my day is made.
Can’t you just see a scene – let’s say, Couples Counceling with Doc. Brown – Sarah says exactly what you put above, and Chuck comes back with “But you *always* made me give the rings back!”
Gold!
Man, who hasn’t acted as couples-counsellor for those two? Morgan? Check. Casey? Ellie? Of course! Even Devon spoke to Bryce (not knowing who he was) about C&S. “I’m a thoracic surgeon, so if there’s one thing I know it’s the human heart. Dude, she’s in love with Chuck.” Stephen too, in his own fashion. The ETA spy in Honeymooners!
We have a bunch of scenes that would go a long way to undoing Mo Ryan’s “Central Relationship Misunderstanding” (CRM), which seems to be at the heart of the show. What about scenes where they got it right, and didn’t know it?
Up until the emotional high point in The Other Guy, Chuck couldn’t shoot. But he’s not the only one. Sarah couldn’t either when Chuck would be put in jeopardy, even though she could when Bryce or her father was. A flash-back clip to that would be great too.
I want to add to Joe’s comment that it’s great to see some old friends back.
As for questions, for TPTB.
1) Shaw ? Really ?
2) Sarah ? WT* ?
3) Gonna go with another emotional and traumatic event that’s “really really great”?
🙂
That should be the Christmas episode when the ghost of Bryce haunts her.
I died so you could shack up with him? Really Sarah, I mean really?
“What happened to Casey between the moment he got hit by Ellie with a fry pan and the moment he went for breakfast where Alex works?”
Why do you keep playing up this notion that Sarah is somehow out of Chuck’s league?
We’ve seen through three seasons that Chuck has no problem with the ladies, yet the idea of him landing Sarah is supposed to be this amazing thing. Were we supposed to believe that Lou, Jill and Hannah are just average?
Ditto!
Gee, since I helped create this thread, I guess I feel compelled to contribute. But let me go for some non Chuck-and-Sarah things:
1) How can TPTB justify the Ring killing Roark if their goal was to create an Intersect?
2) What, specifically, did Chuck think that Intersect 2.0 could do for him when he chose to do it? What is there rational for suggesting that Chuck thought it was a solution?
3) Why do they continue to make believe that everything is irreplaceable (the pill in Tic Tac, Orion’s watch…)? Surely someone had the formula for the pill, so losing that ONE wasn’t epic. Surely Chuck will find Orion’s schematics for the governor for both Intersect 1.0 and 2.0. So where’s the drama?
4) Why is the continuity so poor on a show where so much rests on the mythology? I mean, didn’t someone (anyone? Bueller?) point out that Orion wasn’t wearing a watch in Season 2 because he had the wrist computer?
And one Chuck-Sarah related thing: Was any consideration given to putting Chuck and Sarah together from the beginning of Season 3 so the humor of them trying to hide a “real” relationship after two years of faking it could be exploited?
3) Everything is irreplaceable except lives, you can have several of those in Chuck 😉
Too many fans were clammoring for the “hidden relationship” so they couldn’t go there! Seriously we were talking about it all over the forums in S2, and fan fiction is loaded with those scenarios. But instead we got a rock (I mean Shaw, easy mistake to make!)
Aw, I’ll always mourn the loss of comedy potential that hiding a real relationship could have brought. I’ll agree with Dave that maybe it was expected but honestly from what I’ve seen, Chuck fans are really good at speculation. Orion being Papa B: check, Sarah’s red test being Evelyn Shaw: check, Mama B showing up in the season finale as part of the game changer: check.
And I meant that sarcastically (sorry, doesn’t translate to type well!). I really wish they had done the hidden relationship.
They still can do the hidden relationship stuff for MORGALEX!
1) What’s the deal with Omaha?
2) How was Bryce’s body recovered from outside the building after the events of the pilot episode?
3) How did Ellie and Devon reconcile after their fight in “Nacho Sampler?”
I’d like to understand the Alex Coburn / John Casey thing
– he was “Johhny Boy” on the phone (but was he really talking to his mom?)
– the goons knew him as Alex Coburn, I think, in Fake Name (so did he occasionally use his real name after the war?)
– and didn’t his former fiancee have some interest in showing up at the family dinner in the last episode?
To address each of your points:
– I think that it was meant as a throwaway joke, but I’m guessing that the writers hadn’t fully fleshed out Casey’s backstory at that point. Casey’s backstory is full of inconsistencies anyway, so I wouldn’t read too much into it.
– If I recall correctly, the goons made a reference to Alex Coburn being someone who served in Honduras, which is consistent with what we were shown at the beginning of “Tic Tac.”
– Clare Carey was credited in the finale, but she didn’t show up. I’m guessing that it was part of a deleted scene.
The mafioso said he reminded him of somebody he served with … Alex Coburn, doubt there can be any more explanation than that.
1) Was Sarah lying to Shaw about spreading Bryce’s ashes in Lisbon? – i.e. is Bryce really dead?
2) We’ve been shown that there was a reason that the Intersect was sent to Chuck. Was it also no accident that Sarah was assigned to protect Chuck?
3) What happened with RIOS?
4) Why does the Ring want to destroy the CIA/NSA?
1) If I recall correctly, one of the writers confirmed via Twitter that Bryce is really dead and that Sarah wasn’t lying about spreading Bryce’s ashes.
2) That’s yet to be explained.
3) That’s also yet to be explained, but I think that it’s just a dropped plot thread.
4) It was explained in a throwaway line from Morgan in “Subway” that the Ring is just bent on world domination, so taking over the CIA/NSA would surely help in that goal. The world domination motive is actually heavily hinted at in “Angel de la Muerte” if we are to believe that the Ring poisoner’s line to Casey about how explaining the Ring’s overarching goals could tax the brains of an aging NSA agent was spoken with irony.
We can be sure Bryce is dead simply because White Collar has been quite successful and is likely to keep Matthew Bomer busy long after Chuck is over.
For Fedak/Schwartz or whoever else can answer this:
Have the budget cuts mandated by NBC been restored
for Season 4? The cuts really hurt the quality of the show in Season 3. Please comment, thanks.
What happened in Prague?
What happened in Prague? (the first one)
Ellie knows Chuck is/was a spy, but does she know he is the intersect? Awesome never knew, and it is not clear that Morgan told her.
It is also an essential element in Ellie understanding just how great her dad was.
She did say something in the car about all the secrets Chuck knew. But I wasn’t sure how that was meant.