I Need You To Pencil In The Rest. The First Open Spoilers & Speculation Post

A Surprise wedding? Apparently not, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t more spoilery fun to be had.

Meet The Bartowskis

So, marry in haste, angst at leisure?  It was an intriguing theory.  Even though it didn’t pan out you don’t really think that’s going to stop your intrepid bloggers from commenting on it at length do you?  First some administrative junk we need to get out of the way.

The New Season 4 Spoilers and Speculation Posts.

In an effort to keep things clean and organized we’re doing some back to school cleanup and consolidation over the next few days. If you visit our highly popular Season 4.0 Spoilers page you’ll eventually notice a few changes. We are now organizing everything by episode to make that page a quick reference guide, and closing the comments for that page.  Don’t panic, with  400+ comments and three weeks to the season premier we just thought it was getting a bit unwieldy.  We’d never make it through the season.  The new spoilers will go into a weekly open thread for reader participation and to keep the comments manageable.  In addition we’re hoping to make the site more friendly to the spoilerphobic by confining spoilers and speculation to specific posts rather than having them leak into the reaction posts and reviews.  The original spoilers we posted on the season 4 page will be saved in a post called Season 4 Spoilers and Speculation Part 1.  Then tune in for new spoilers and speculation after the break.

Now, the shocking wedding that isn’t (maybe)

It’s a plausible strategy for promoting the show.  If TPTB had announced that Chuck and Sarah would get married out of the blue, i.e. they just elope at some point, but not tell us when, that keeps the anticipation up.  Each and every episode could be the one where Chuck and Sarah just up and marry each other.  It also makes some dramatic sense.  Chuck and Sarah act impulsively when it comes to each other.  They always, as a first instinct, try to be and to give the other what they think the other wants and deserves.  Usually without even talking about it.  This pattern could easily lead to a hasty, ill-conceived marriage that later requires some adjustments and involves some bumps along the way .  It might have been (or maybe still could be) a way to have it both ways.  Some relationship angst would be almost inevitable but there would also be a re-assuring sense that they were in it together for the long haul.  Kind of like when they threaten to kill off or bunker Chuck.  You know it isn’t going to happen but it’s still exciting and thrilling and dramatic to see how everyone handles it.

How Did It Make You Feel?

Assume, for a moment, that Chuck and Sarah are surreptitiously married at about, oh, episode 4 of season 4. Yes, it’s hasty, a surprise even to them, but not out of character. Both Chuck and Sarah have been known to do surprising things on the spur of the moment, never confident, always sure and never, ever second-guessing themselves. Kristin has now said that they are NOT the couple she knows for certain are to be married this season, but she hasn’t said they won’t be, either. Not to the best of her knowledge, or anyone’s for that matter, save maybe the show runners. How does that make you feel?

I have so many questions. Did you secretly (or not so secretly) hope that they would be married so soon? Why is that? Doesn’t that mean, like Kristin suggests, that the end of the show is in sight? Who would want to see past “…and they lived happily ever after”? In the immortal words of Chris Fedak, where’s the fun in that? And didn’t you fear that Chuck and Sarah were being too impetuous – again? – that they deserved something better than a quickie ceremony officiated by an Elvis impersonator in a Las Vegas chapel, and that we were in for nothing but much more unnecessary angst if they did?

Yeah, me neither. I thought it would be perfectly great if they impetuously, secretly, slyly and romantically made it official and tied the proverbial knot.

But then again, hang on a minute. Does this mean that Chuck and Sarah are still lying to friends and (now) family? Really? Haven’t they both grown out of that yet? And what about the desire expressed by both of them about wanting a normal life??? How does a secret, clandestine marriage further that or any other goal? Hum? Not much, I say.

I detect a pattern here. Time and again Chuck and Sarah overcame the biggest obstacles the universe could throw at them just to be together. Love it; it’s been fun. Yet, the biggest thing ever standing in their way was – themselves. Chuck took forever to actually believe Sarah’s words – the ones that spoke of him being a hero already. Insecurities out the wazoo. Sarah took just as long to admit that there were some things she couldn’t fix, and lower herself to ask for help. Pride, much? Both of them are still less than candid with others who are important to them, and both are still working on their final answers to the questions “Who are you?” and “What do you want?” Can we say they are ready for a lifetime together yet?

Well, maybe. They are quick learners, after all. They make mistakes (sigh – oh, have they made mistakes!). But seldom have they made the same one twice.

Forget the fun-awkward process of meeting someone and dating. I’m at the point where the deeper truths about life and love, living with someone for a lifetime and coming to terms with myself and my own limitations are glaring issues every day, and I wouldn’t mind seeing a show – Chuck and Sarah – traversing that with the joy and sensitivity we’ve seen up to now. To my eyes, Chuck and Sarah are heading more and more in that direction every day, and a wedding in a Las Vegas chapel is the kind of thing those two always try – once. Then they correct themselves. And to paraphrase Mahatma Ghandi, then they win.

Amy’s POV.

I for one am good either way.  I would like an early season 4 engagement to be sure, but whether or not our favorite couple ties the knot immediately-I’m neutral.  Why, you ask?  I know, I’m a huge shipper!  One would think I would be all over the marriage aspect like a fat kid on candy.  My perspective is that they need to know one another.  Chuck and Sarah developed an intimacy early on and that is what drew me in and held my attention.  Then we had the season of dismay, with hurt feelings blocking truths-truths that each had to come to realize.  Now that we have gotten that out of the way, and have, uh…conquered physical intimacy…we still have two people who had idealized visions of a relationship.  I agree that they are both impulsive and their motives are genuine for the other person.   It is time now to grow together and figure out what they want.  I’ve long advocated for Real vs. Normal, and I think the last few episodes of S3 have both Chuck and Sarah realizing that Normal isn’t for them.

One tweet I saw from someone who visited the set (I’m sorry, I’m not sure who or where I saw it) basically summarized the idea of all the conversations you should have before you get married.  You know, one of those books of intimate questions that help you navigate where you and your beloved stand on a myriad of issues.  I think that is the way the writers should go.  Whether or not they are married, Chuck and Sarah need to really know the other.  Kind of like the game they played in Wookie.  Throw in the fact that Ellie may not like that her future sister-in-law is a spy and the second guessing that would naturally come from that revelation would lead to back story revelations that would advance the story.  I think if they go this route of exploration, rings or not, they would always come back to the validation that they love and chose each other, despite natural insecurities and human foibles.  So wedding ring or not, they need to be having these conversations.  And maybe Chuck will finally play Arcade Fires first album for Sarah-after all, I think she’s ready.

-amyabn

Dave’s thinking…..stop that!

I’m a big fan of marriage.   And terribly old fashioned as well.   I still think if you’re sleeping with someone you ought to be married to them.  I also am very comfortable with how well and deeply they know each other.   I do hope we see an actual engagement period,  but it doesn’t need to be overly long.  Just long enough to generate a little media buzz.   I’m really not into the current idea of how well you need to know someone before tying the knot;  and I know it has been shown that living together first as a “trial run” or whatever actually makes divorce more likely.   I know as historic fact that engagements have typically been much shorter (like a few weeks) and came sooner in a relationship (like in a few weeks or months).   I’m not even talking about arranged marriages,  this was as recently as 50 years ago.   Divorce rates were lower and it was accepted “Love is not a feeling its an act your will” (Don Francisco, 1982).   Okay,  now that I’ve annoyed or alienated a majority of our readers,  I’m not trying to tell anyone what to do.   But I like where Chuck and Sarah are at,  and think its time they take the next step.   I see no reason to see it as “the end is in sight.”   Shows like Office, Friends, and Get Smart have had marriages among major characters well before the intended end.  And even in this format we’ve seen successful stories involving married characters from Thin Man, to Hart to Hart, to the upcoming Undercovers.   I strongly believe promoting this element would win back some of the viewers we lost last season,  and generate a lot of excitement and media hype for a few weeks leading up to it.  I guess that comes down to,  I like the idea for reasons internal and external to the show.
Amy, Dave, Ernie & Joe

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About Ernie Davis

I was born in 1998, the illegitimate brain child and pen name of a surly and reclusive misanthrope with a penchant for anonymity. My offline alter ego is a convicted bibliophile and causes rampant pognophobia whenever he goes out in public. He wants to be James Lileks when he grows up or Dave Barry if he doesn’t.  His hobbies are mopery, curling and watching and writing about Chuck.  Obsessively.  Really, the dude needs serious help.
This entry was posted in Observations, Season 4, Spoilers, Wild Speculation. Bookmark the permalink.

175 Responses to I Need You To Pencil In The Rest. The First Open Spoilers & Speculation Post

  1. alladinsgenie4u says:

    An admirable article with solid and well thought out perspectives from you guys. Thank you for that.

    @Ernie and Amy- Maybe C/S have to play a married couple again or maybe conduct a fake wedding – but this time the effect on the both of them would be tremendous – forcing them to seriously face this issue and more importantly be open about it – which in turn leads me to Amy’s views about them having conversations regarding their future together.

    @Dave – You call yourself old fashioned – the country where I come from( India) has a social structure deeply rooted in the principles and importance of marriage – so understandably for me at least, C/S getting married soon (after such huge commitments in the back 6) is the next logical step in their relationship

    • atcdave says:

      Well AG4, its good someone agrees! In this country it will be a small minority that sees it like we do, and I’m sure the writers of the show don’t see the marriage issue as pressing at all. I do understand when people don’t share my values they will prioritize these things differently, but it sure would make me happy if they just tied the knot already!

    • joe says:

      Hum… Dave calls himself old fashioned, Amy all but typed the words, I’m all in with that, and I’d bet that Ernie puts himself on that side of the spectrum before this thread is done. I detect a pattern here!

      I’m not too surprised to see the very first post invoke the importance of marriage, Genie (and thank you for that)! There’s something about Chuck that appeals to this idea and draws fans who are attuned. Yes? That happens despite the – let’s say cynical – stance the characters are supposed to have at the start towards relationships and commitment.

      Given that start, with Sarah cynical and Chuck noncommittal, it’s an amazingly positive thing that the fans overwhelmingly want them to take the next step, isn’t it? The fans are thrilled about the idea. I don’t think it’s because of some innocent naivete; we’re beyond that as a group. We really believe in love and marriage, and we want that for these characters.

      That’s sort of nice!

    • Merve says:

      As someone who grew up in Indian culture (but in North America), I tend to share the same conservative values with regards to love and marriage. (Don’t get me started on the immorality of extramarital intercourse!) But, at the same time, it would be difficult for me to enjoy television if I imposed my own morality on it. For now, I’m a fan of the spy-first-marry-later approach.

  2. Crumby says:

    Ideally, if we were sure that Season 4 will have 22 episodes, I’d say that Chuck and Sarah need to take their time.

    I think they should figure out some things before getting married. I’d even wait a little for an engagement.

    Chuck has abandonment issues and Sarah commitment issues. They’re committed to each other – they figured out that much – but they’re still learning what it means.

    I agree that a married couple can also learn all that but I still think it’s too soon. When Season 4 begins, they’ll be with each other for less than 6 months. Why the rush? They have a whole life ahead of them anyway.

    Also, considering what’s to come I don’t want an engagement and/or wedding to be spoiled by lies and deception. It’s still unclear whether Chuck will lie or not, how long he will if he does, and if Sarah will hide things from him too. If they both come clean with each other quickly, I’ll be fine with an engagement.

    I also don’t really picture a big wedding for them. I don’t see them planning it for a whole season like Ellie and Devon did. But I don’t want them to just elope either. What I picture is an intimate reunion, within which Chuck and Sarah will be surrounded by the people that means everything to them and would be completely comfortable displaying all those emotions that day will have.

    Finally, I’m not excited about a fake wedding, a forced one or anything that would be spyly enhanced. I want this to be True.

    Because we need to be realistic here, we have to admit that Season 4 might be the last and contain only 13 episodes. So when a 22 episodes season would allow to have a pre-engagement period, an engaged period and a married period, a 13 episodes season is way more restrictive. That’s why in the end, I’d probably be ok with an early wedding because yes, I’d like to see them married and not just in the series finale.

    • atcdave says:

      I do agree with some of what you say Crumby, especially that I don’t want to see a marriage (or any other part of their relationship) messed up by anymore lies. Hopefully we will move past that part quickly.
      I also agree I don’t want to see the spy world meddle in the real marriage, unless it was something played for laughs like they are ordered to cover marry for some mission and scam the General by making it a real one. Fans have been big on the “real-fake” relationship thing almost since the beginning, now that they’ve gone from not being a couple to being out in the open with it so fast, there just aren’t many good options left for Chuck and Sarah sneaking around behind anyone’s back!

  3. OldDarth says:

    Do not understand the desire or necessity to rush Chuck and Sarah through an engagement and into marriage.

    There is a lot of dramatic/comedic material to explore with them going steady.

    If they do through the engagement/wedding storyline with any haste this season that actually concerns me. It is a sure sign that this may be the show’s last season.

    • atcdave says:

      At this point, I would hardly call anything involving a Chuck/Sarah wedding “rushed”; its already been dragged out beyond reason and sense. I also see no connection between a wedding either in 4.01, or 4.13, or 4.22 to the end of the series. there are numerous examples of weddings at the beginning, middle or end of any number of serialized stories. And a married couple can be every bit as dramatic/comedic as singles, even better if they choose to put more effort on the actual spy story and less on the melodrama. I think that last part is huge to me, I am thoroughly tired of the way they write relationship drama (gee, what can they find to not talk about this week?); and look forward to other things getting center stage, hopefully for most of the season.

      • OldDarth says:

        With the upcoming MamaB storyline, I really don’t see how Chuck, and Sarah for that matter, will be in a state of mind to contemplate marriage. If anything it will serve to make the two of them take a step back and re-assess their situation.

        I see no advantages, beyond wish fulfillment, to push the characters into a marriage so quickly.

        The two of them going steady can be a playground for a lot of character exploration. And comedy.

        Married couples can be every bit as entertaining but marrying them on Chuck will not equate to cessation of melodrama.
        Skipping over the going steady period is not going to remove or decrease melodrama in any way. But it will take away opportunities to see the couple exploring the dicey dynamics of going steady. Especially for Sarah. Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I really want to see that.

        It is no surprise that putting Chuck and Sarah together was not going to satisfy the fans. The wedding rally cry is predictable and no doubt would soon to be followed by the, when is the baby coming? mantra.

        It looks like another season of setting predetermined criteria for the show instead of sitting back and enjoying the fact that this show – out of very, very, very few – has given what the fans clamored for.

        The leads are together. Yet still more is wanted. I am really dreading another season of the fans dwelling on something the show is not giving them rather than enjoying what they are actually getting.

        Please, I beg, do not go down the road again.

      • James Lee says:

        As usual, Mr. Systma, you’re twisting the facts. The fans were not unhappy with Season 3 because they didn’t get what they wanted. They were unhappy with Season 3 because it was poorly written, poorly plotted and weakly executed. And that goes almost as much for the back six, when Chuck and Sarah were together, as the original 13, when they weren’t.

        Besides, why should anyone listen to YOU, if I may ask. You claim the Chuck-Sarah relationship is the fifth or sixth reason you watch the show. That puts you in the insanely tiny minority of fans who think this show is NOT about Chuck and Sarah.

        Besides, as the show has dragged the Chuck-Sarah relationship out for three seasons, ratings have plunged. So it seems to me that the problem is NOT that TPTB aren’t giving US what we want. The problem with the show is that they are giving YOU what YOU want. And virtually NO ONE else but you wants it.

        As a creative project and as a TV business, Chuck would be much better off if they gave atcDave what HE wants instead of what YOU want.

      • joe says:

        Mr. Lee, you seem to have read a large number of posts here. Surely you recognize that we try to keep the tone non-personal, friendly and polite. We haven’t demanded that – we only ask and expect it of everybody.

        We’d – I’d – very much appreciate keeping the pointed YOUs to a minimum, please. Lou’s opinions are valued like everybody’s here, and I can assure you he’s not the only fan who shares it.

      • Big Kev says:

        @atcdave
        Not sure I agree with you on that one, Dave. Yes, the wt/wt was dragged out beyond any reasonable point, but that rather emphasises the fact that they haven’t actually been in a “proper” relationship for very long.
        What that relationship means for each of them and how it will be defined have really hardly been touched on – and my take from Schwedak’s comments about “gender reversal” was that those issues were going to be part of season 4 – but from the base that Chuck and Sarah are going to be together.
        In real terms, Sarah has only just committed herself to moving in. She’s never had a “real” relationship. Chuck’s only relationship experience is Jill – and he’s still hiding things from Sarah in a misguided effort to protect her. On that basis, I don’t think either of them is remotely ready for marriage.

        @Old Darth
        Completely agree with you, Lou. I don’t understand the need to rush through the development of the relationship.
        I also agree about the tendency within the fandom to never be satisfied – but I have a very large caveat to that in relation to S3.
        I think TPTB were always going to struggle with S3 because they wanted to tell a story that much of the fanbase weren’t interested in watching – ie any story that had Chuck and Sarah apart. Many of those expectations were predetermined, you’re absolutely right about that.
        I think that meant that for S3 to be a success, the story had to be even more compelling, and the character development even more convincing in order to get over those pre-existing hurdles and get the sceptics onside. A well executed S3 plot could have done that. Instead – as has been discussed – the execution was patchy IMO, and the plotting and characterisation at times dreadful.
        But that is well and truly water under the bridge. I completely take your point – I’m going to enjoy S4 without deciding what I want before I’ve seen anything!

        @James Lee
        What Joe said.

      • jason says:

        @James – the greatness of this forum is that all fans are valued and treated with respect – you can disagree with the opinion while still respecting the fan – as far as I know, not all, but many of the other sites only allow opinions they agree with.

        @Kev/Lou/Joe – as much of a shipper as I am, even I have been dumbfounded by the rush to wedding, I disagree that this is the fans fault however.

        Fans react to what showrunners spoil, creators create and writers write. Don’t blame the fans for being up in arms, we get up in arms over intentional actions to make us so (Kristen had TPTB’s blessing to taunt us with the ‘couples surprise wedding’ spoiler, would you not agree?)

        I myself, would have been very content to see a happy unmarried couple going on a spy mission each week with casey, interacting with the morons for a few minutes each episode, and having a CS fountain scene or family dinner type endings as often as possible.

        That just is not the show Chuck is, at times it almost sort of gets there, then TPTB pull the rug out from me.

      • OldDarth says:

        First up – thanks for the defense guys but no offense was taken.

        Secondly, James it is Sytsma not Systma. No worries it happens all the time. 😀

        All fans were unhappy with Season 3 because the story execution was not up to par. And not done honestly. That goes for fans whose primary reason for watching the show is for Chuck and Sarah as well as those who watch the show for other reasons. No fact twisting there.

        As others have pointed out, the number of people who watch the show for reasons besides Chuck and Sarah is much larger than you may wish to give credence to.

        As a creative project and TV business I would counter that no show should give the fans what they want. They should give them something better.

        What that something better is what this blog is all about discussing. My viewpoint on the show is well documented as your posts amply demonstrates.

        I have posted another, extremely long too – sorry, entry detailing what I think is a dramatically rich way of Season 4 playing out.

        In the spirit of this blog I look forward to YOU putting forth YOUR thoughts too.

        Thank You.

      • atcdave says:

        Lou I do want to clarify something. I don’t believe my or many fans enjoyment really rests on a quick marriage at this point. While I intensly disliked most of S3, they did finish well and I enjoyed the final 7 episodes quite a lot. When I say I would love to see Chuck and Sarah marry soon, in no way does that mean my continued enjoyment of the show is contingent on it. I would also love to see the production budget doubled and the back nine picked up today; but I’m not holding my breath for it and I expect to enjoy the product as delivered. It does mean I completely don’t get your objections to it, but as I stated in the original post above, I expect to be in the minority on that; so its no biggie.

        And for the record, I never want to be associated with personal attacks whether its someone agreeing with me or attacking my ideas. You are as entitled to your opinions and thoughts as myself or anyone else. I don’t believe TPTB need to choose which group of fans to appeal to anymore, they should be able to produce a show we all enjoy. After all, they made a show we all got hooked on.

      • Merve says:

        Two things:
        1. If you spend a lot of time in the Chuck fansite bubble, it’s easy to get a skewed view of what the “majority” and what the “minority” are. (In general, I make no claims about what constitutes either.)

        2. It’s all fun and good to talk about what specific things we would like to see and would not like to see next season. But imagine if the writers had to evaluate each episode against a fan-created checklist. Suddenly, Chuck can’t go off on a mission with Casey because he’s not doing spywork with Sarah, Chuck can’t lie to any of the other five main characters, Ellie can’t voice her disapproval of Chuck’s chosen career, Chuck and Sarah can’t have an argument in one episode that only resolves itself in the next, etc. You get the picture. (Sorry, I’m just picking various season 4 wishes at random; I don’t know if any of them are popular or not.) It’s hard to tell in advance how well a certain story development will work out. For example, I thought that Sarah revealing her birth name to Shaw would bother me, but it barely fazed me. On the other hand, I thought that I’d be fine with Chuck lying to his father, but for some reason, it really irked me. (Again, I’m speaking for myself. I don’t know if these examples are “majority” or “minority” viewpoints.) I’m just going to sit back and attempt to enjoy whatever happens next season. If it’s not enjoyable, I have a remote control and a Nintendo Wii.

      • atcdave says:

        Merve I do agree. While I am pretty free with expressing my opinions, it is important to leave the writers free to be creative in their story-telling. I know we’ve had this discussion before about the responsibilities of artists and patrons. I do try to express myself clearly and make clear how important specific issues are. In the end its their product to make or break. I give feedback on if I like where they’re going or not; but they have to tell their story. If they’re too worried about pleasing everyone the product will be just as bad as if they don’t care if anyone likes it.

    • Ernie Davis says:

      Well let me just add my take on this. I wasn’t coming to the idea of a wedding as thinking it was time or needing it. When I wrote my part I did it from the perspective that a wedding was what we were going to get. How can they make it work both in promoting the show, and dramatically.

      Remember this started because Kristin Dos Santos had pegged Chuck and Sarah as one of two possible couples getting a surprise wedding this season.

      OK, that said, my personal feeling, it’s too soon, but I’d be totally OK with it. How’s that for splitting the difference.

      From a creative perspective there is one thing that still nags at me when it comes to TPTB. I’m never quite sure they get the message the fans are really sending. Before the season started there was a lot of talk about the approaching love polygons and were they necessary or was it already too much with the WT/WT. OD and I had what I think was a pretty good and civil exchange about both the dramatic possibilities and the potential pitfalls of another round of love interests. In the end, as many have pointed out, it came down, as it always does, to execution. Characters were damaged for the sake of a rushed plot, then damaged further by inexplicably dragging portions of it out without resolution. The lesson TPTB seem to be saying they learned was don’t put people between Chuck and Sarah.

      That wasn’t close to what I felt. There may be, as atcDave contends (as have I on occasion), an argument that the sell-by date on WT/WT expired in Colonel and another round just wasn’t going to work. I eventually convinced myself that there was something to exploring how Chuck and Sarah would act outside a forced relationship where neither could really stray too far. Well, the results weren’t pretty. The dramatic possibilities were largely ignored or glossed over in favor of standard TV cliche’s and melodrama. Chuck isn’t supposed to be like other shows. That’s the message I think the fans were sending. Chuck was always at it’s best when it acknowledged the standard TV tropes and then sort of used, but sort of mocked them as they added a new twist. When they adopted and depended on them without apparent irony it got old quick. In a hat tip to our traditional values coalition here I’ll just say that the Hollywood practice of making sure both the members of a couple in the making need to sleep with someone else first, making sure each is hurt by their potential lover’s callousness before putting them together is a particularly nasty cliche that needs to end.

      So I’d be fine if TPTB wanted to take the lesson don’t put people between Chuck and Sarah and explore the relationship for some dramatic possibilities, if I hadn’t heard a similar idea about milking all the dramatic possibilities and seen it blow up the fanbase.

      From a dramatic and storyline POV, it’s probably too soon. In the show timeline Chuck and Sarah have been together for a bit over a month, and Sarah moved in 2-3 weeks into that relationship or about 2-3 weeks ago. Now granted they’ve known each other and known how they felt about each other for years, but as others point out, they’re both still finding their sea legs. It’s a little soon for a wedding.

      But I’d be fine with it. If TPTB want to tell the fans something, we get it, a wedding is one way to make it happen. A wedding re-defines the baseline to be exactly what a lot of us said we wanted. Chuck and Sarah are together with a sense of permanence, working through whatever it takes. Kind of the opposite of much of season three which seemed to be determined to tell us they had to go it alone and were headed in different directions. The sense that there is a permanence to Chuck and Sarah, established with a wedding as the shorthand, might not be a bad thing creatively.

      Chuck and Sarah are rather impulsive when it comes to each other, as said above. It’s not outside the nature of the characters to do something hasty and even perhaps ill-conceived to try to re-assure or hold on to the other. Chuck and Sarah both have abandonment issues, and some commitment issues too. One or both might get a little crazy and try to end their fears once and for all. Which we all know wouldn’t quite work out as expected.

      Either way, we’re bound to get some exploration of the state of the union this season. I look forward to it with both hope and fear. After all, in the end it all comes down to the execution, and the best writing in the world won’t matter if it’s something we don’t want or get on the screen.

  4. JC says:

    I’m on the fence about a marriage this season. I think there’s a lot of issues between them need resolved but I don’t know if they’ll go there.

    Now if this ends up being the last season a marriage would be a great way to end the show. That’s not to say marriage needs to be the end, the show can easily go on with them married.

    If a marriage happens I’d like it to be a secret that they keep from everyone. I can see them posing as newly weds for a mission or to draw MEB out. They realize they both want to and do a spur of the moment type thing. But obviously it would be complicated professionally (Beckman) and personally (Ellie) so they announce their engagement.

    The reason I like this scenario is it kills two birds with one stone. It solidifies the relationship and gives C/S a secret of their own instead of keeping things from each. It also allows the show to do a wedding episode done the line if they get more seasons.

    • Gord says:

      Some interesting thoughts a secret wedding with a formal wedding down the line – why not. Since they are living together, no one really need be the wiser.

      Regardless of if there is a wedding this season, I could see Ellie pushing for one.
      “Chuck, Sarah when are you two going to get married and start a family.”

      Come to think of it, maybe it would be Awesome pushing for the wedding and Ellie saying its none of their business (thinking of what happened the beginning of Truth at the Sushi resteraunt).

      • thinkling says:

        I think there needs to be some repair in the Ellie/Sarah relationship. I thought Ellie was a little chilly toward Sarah after she found out about the spy world. “Is my husband safe with you?” Maybe it was momentary and now forgotten. I hope so. Or Devon could have straightened her out on that. It will be interesting to see the tone of the first episode.

      • atcdave says:

        I thought it was hard to tell where things stood between Ellie and Sarah. I do want to see Chuck figure out Sarah is his partner, not Ellie. And I’d really like a few Sarah/Ellie scenes, whether there are fences to mend or not.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Well I hate to say it, but I’m anxious to have Sarah read Ellie the riot act.

        I can see a few episodes where Sarah is deferential, scared, uncomfortable. But eventually I want Sarah to stand up to Ellie and let her know the reason Chuck chose his life was to protect her, and that, as Sarah had to do once, it was time to cut the apron strings and let Chuck decide who he is.

      • Crumby says:

        I agree Ernie but Chuck is responsible for this too. I think Sarah should tell Chuck to tell Ellie. Like she did with Orion actually. I hope Chuck chooses to tell Ellie what he want instead of lying to her about being a spy. That would be growth.

      • atcdave says:

        I would certainly like to see Sarah take a stand on this; whether she uses Chuck as her proxy or goes strait to Ellie. They both need a talking to.

      • JC says:

        I’d prefer Sarah standing up to Ellie when it came to her relationship with Chuck. We need to see less passive Sarah when it comes to what she wants personally. It doesn’t have to be some epic fight but something along the lines of her conversation with Casey in Honeymooners.

      • thinkling says:

        I agree with this line of discussion. Ellie needs to let Chuck grow up and be his own man, follow his calling.

        I’ve always liked the Ellie/Sarah scenes (uh, both of them). It’s clear that Sarah cares about all the Bartowski’s. I think it would be a wonderful moment for Ellie to see Chuck through Sarah’s eyes, to hear a little of their story from Sarah’s perspective. Ellie has to be curious.

        It was always so poignant to me when Ellie would rag on Chuck for his lack of ambition and accomplishments … “and it’s not like you’re superman, out there saving the world.” Ouch. And he could never defend himself to her. He kept her from being blown up and prevented WW3, but all she knew about was his diploma. Then, when she finally found out he was a spy and hadn’t been whiling away his life as a NerdHerder, that in fact he really was a hero … she made him quit. Poor guy just can’t win with her.

        And on the Chuck side, Sarah could be encouraging him to be more honest with his sister.

        My other thought is that it wouldn’t hurt for Ellie to see Sarah and Chuck in action.

      • atcdave says:

        That would be awesome Thinkling. Too bad Ellie didn’t see what Morgan did; hopefully next time!

  5. BDP says:

    Pssshhh i thought them moving in together was insanely quick (and a bit d***ish of Chuck just to state it to Morgon,not ask if it was ok…)

    marriage – really… I think they both need a chill down period, just enjoy being together whilst the push and pull of there respective jobs take thier toll

    tbh i think every body in this fandom needs to chill just a notch… until we need to drag new viewers in kicking and screaming – Season 4 hasn’t even started yet

  6. OldDarth says:

    Given what we know about the storyline to date, this is how I envision the fourth season playing out. It is very much in line with Ernie’s post.

    The season would start out the normal time jump that happens each season. We would learn that during this time jump Sarah and Casey would have retained their former jobs and are working as a team.

    In terms of what Chuck is doing that is still hazy. As part of the deal he made with Beckman to drop out of the spy game Chuck may be required to placed under some form of surveillance which could be part of the reason why the CIA has taken over the BuyMore as a base of operations.

    Chuck and Morgan could be working at the BuyMore and are in employ of the CIA as analysts or something such similar. Part of their duties could be training and evaluating agents in their ability to success take on covers in the retail world. Hence the Gretas. The Gretas could also be Chuck’s rotating handler.

    During the time jump and leading into the season, Chuck most assuredly has been plumbing his father’s Orion Cave(OC)Intel and, with Morgan’s help, is working on finding his mother.

    At the start of the season we know Chuck has not told Ellie and likely not Sarah either. Best guess is that Chuck and Sarah’s paths cross in the first episode and it this which leads to Sarah’s discovery of Chuck and Morgan’s clandestine operations. It also what fuels their relationship bump going into the second episode, coming to a head in the third.

    Once resolved the show will then bring TeamB together for the rest of the season as they work together to find MamaB. TeamB for me also includes Morgan BTW.

    Pure speculation on my part, my hope is that Chuck remains outside of the CIA in terms of being a spy but has struck a deal with Beckman where she protects Chuck’s identity. Chuck may be able to ressurect the Orion moniker if Beckman has kept the details around PapaB’s death and his link to Orion quiet. Beckman becomes Commissioner Gordon to Chuck’s Batman if you will.

    How all of this speculation is played out is what interests me the most going in. A long preamble as to where I would like to see the Chuck and Sarah relationship plugged into all of that.

    From a story telling perspective, IMO, the best impact would be delivered by Chuck and Sarah tentatively feeling their way through things together as they learn to juggle their professional and personal lives.

    For Sarah being in one place, encountering problems, and working through them will have a learning curve. Historically she has been taught by upbringing and profession to avoid such situations usually by simply leaving. Now with a true home life possible she will have to discover how to fight that behaviour and face situations which will require her to examine and reveal her feelings. Rich material to work with.

    For Chuck he is on a path of destiny. A path that will not end with the discovery of his mother. Reconciling what he wants to happen in his personal life against the responsibility of the good he can do will be his cross to bear.

    So as Chuck and Sarah work together on their relationship they will stumble onto the background of what happened between Papa and MamaB. They will likely find some very interesting parallels between what happened to Chuck’s parents and to what they are currently experiencing in their own relationship.

    With the announcement of Timothy Dalton being cast there could very well be a Chuck/Sarah/Shaw or a Chuck/Sarah/Bryce; or a combination of Bryce and Shaw, backstory that exists between PapaB/MamaB/Timothy Dalton – btw can’t wait to find out what his name will be!

    When Sarah meets MamaB, and my biggest wish, is that she finds MamaB first. If MamaB is the kick ass personality we all think she is going to be, MamaB is going to be the device that dramatizes Sarah’s struggles. And a glimpse into a possible future.

    Would it not then bring a supreme sense of satisfaction for Chuck and Sarah to still decide to be together for the rest of their lives, now knowing what happened to Chuck’s parents and what could happen to them, and then still become engaged?

    Not saying this storyline is correct or the only viable way to properly dramatically play out their relationship arc from going steady to being engaged to getting married. Given the facts at hand it would be the way I would like it play out. Dramatically and emotionally it would be a very powerful arc.

    If this arc plays out over the first 13 episodes and then the show gets an order for an additional 6; an engagement at the 13th episode with a wedding in the final would work fine.

    If others would like to offer their takes on the season that would give maximum impact to the milestones in Chuck and Sarah’s relationship happening at different moments please share them with us. That is what this blog is for.

    I am not opposed to Chuck and Sarah getting engaged earlier. I just want it to be earned and done in a dramatically satisfying way. Just getting them engaged for the sake of being engaged would be nearly as wasted an opportunity as the name reveal turned out to be.

    Whew! Sorry for the length of the post. Not a fan of long, sprawling sagas but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

    Look forward to reading other people’s takes. Should be some very interesting discussion.

    • Ernie Davis says:

      Exactly. 😉

    • Crumby says:

      Most of what you said is also what I see happening and/or something I’d like to see.

      I particularly like your take on the parallel with Orion and MEB’s relationship. I didn’t really picture how they could play it out, and I think what you described would be an awesome way to do it.

      However, I don’t want Beckman to find out too soon about Chuck’s search. She’s still the personification of the government to me, and I want Chuck to question the government actions, therefore not trusting Beckman with this at first.

      I’m really interested in the “things governments are afraid to do” and the perspective of Chuck and Team B being on their own side here. Not Papa and Mama B’s side or the government’s side, their own side. Figuring things out for themselves and agreeing with Beckman on some things and disagreeing on some others.

      As an asset, Chuck was often in that situation, and that pushed Casey and Sarah to also reconsider some aspect of their dedication to the job. One of the difficulties that Sarah was facing was that she was Chuck’s advocate with Beckman, but she also needed to be Beckman’s advocate with Chuck.

      I feel like we kind of lost that aspect last year. Chuck was so determined to become a spy it seems that he didn’t question much, and they really didn’t resolve Sarah’s feelings over the job, in fact they just forgot about it. So I’d really like to see that come back.

      It goes with the idea of Chuck being a different spy and this has to go for Team B as well. Casey and Sarah may be killers, but they also are different spies. Casey chose to dedicate his life to the job and said no to the family life. He’s probably the one for who questionning the government will be the hardest. Sarah was always different, Chuck knew it already in Wookie, she just never met people that were worth the risk of actually making a life before Chuck. She however has a strong sense of duty, and Chuck and Morgan don’t have the same background and logic as spies, so it will probably be easier for them to hide things from the government. Team B dynamic within MEB’s search is something I’m really looking forward to see.

      I also don’t really see the need for Chuck to remain outside of the CIA. I kind of like the idea of him having to be some kind of a double-agent in fact. I don’t need him to be contractually out of the CIA to know that he’ll do his thing.

      Finally, my concern is about Ellie and Awesome. I really hope they don’t make Ellie just be the annoying sister that pesters Chuck all the time. My hope is also that they both get involved in the spy world at some point as actors instead of spectators. Maybe because of Mama B, or because of the baby (Awesome Junior will be a Bartowski after all), I don’t really know how, but I’d like them to be more proactive. I understand the idea of them wanting their normal life back, but at some point they’ll have to see that normal isn’t for Bartowskis.

      • JC says:

        Yeah, after what happened in S3 you would think Sarah would start to question her commitment and trust of the government. As for Casey I could see Alex being the catalyst for him to start questioning things. We’ve seen him do it before, killing Chuck in S2 and the rescue of Orion.

        I’d like Beckman to realize that they may unorthodox but they bring out the best in each other.

        And your completely right about Ellie. The season finale showed what a dynamic character she can be. Her being in the dark again was the most frustrating aspect of the finale. If anything she should be the new Chuck in a way instead of Morgan. The OC is her legacy as much as Chuck. I really hope she finds out the truth early on instead of the finale again.

      • Crumby says:

        I’d like Beckman to realize that they may unorthodox but they bring out the best in each other.

        I think she already began this. She recognized that Morgan could be helpful in his own way in Honeymooners. She supported Chuck and Sarah by trying to give them mentors in Role Models. She was also supportive in Tooth. And she completely supported them when the rest of the government was manipulated by Shaw.

        Thinking about it that way, I kinda change my mind about Beckman incarnating the government. She actually kinda is the 5th member of Team B.

    • Ernie Davis says:

      Now that OD and I have had our Freaky Friday moment I just wanted to touch on something he mentioned. And Lou, you should get wordy more often.

      There was an idea floating around in the arc that shall not be named that the fans had to see the bad to get to the good, feel the lows to feel the joy. In short, we had to earn it. Now I am relatively certain that this is not what OD means above when he says he wants the wedding and engagement to feel earned. I think he means dramatically developed so that the progression feels authentic to the story (his big concern) and the characters (mine). Correct me if I’m wrong.

      Much as I hate to retread this ground I’m going to do so. Last season much of Sarah’s story wasn’t earned. Chuck’s, for the most part was a pretty logical progression, pretty well laid out and explained. Sarah’s was a seemingly disconnected series of whiplash inducing starts, stops and turns and unexplained epiphanies. We did get a bit of exposition in Final Exam, but for most of the season we had to rely on Yvonne’s facial expressions to tell the story, which is fine if you are only trying to convey moods and emotions or shifts in them, but as good an actress as she is she can not do the writers job and sell motivations with a pout. She can sell state of mind with a tear, but for the story to move in a way we could understand and appreciate we needed to understand how that state of mind moved her to act. The failure to do this lead to the big question last season. Why Shaw? He wasn’t Bryce, he wasn’t Cole, he certainly wasn’t Chuck, so the shorthand that she falls for heroes doesn’t work. He’s a stallion? He’s a closer? OK, so she’s superficial? Is that the message? She falls for the guys she works with? Fine, that makes Chuck just another in a long line. So what was it that Shaw was offering that Sarah needed? By not explaining that or developing it Sarah’s story became a hash.

      Now, the good part. I don’t feel that way about a potential wedding or engagement. The groundwork has been laid for either a long or short timeframe. The quickie wedding? Well Chuck and Sarah’s insecurities make them do some crazy impulsive things and sometimes their reaction is to overcompensate, but as Sarah in the back 6 shows, at least one of them is learning. Sort of.

      • JC says:

        If you listen to latest podcast over at ChuckTV they mention at one point Shaw was supposed to be a double agent from the beginning like a lot of us thought. Maybe the resolution about why she was with Shaw was lost because he was supposed to be playing her and that’s the answer. But since the story was changed they didn’t have a valid reason and ignored it.

      • thinkling says:

        Double agent or no, I think he was playing her.

      • Joseph (can't be Joe) says:

        I wish that they would have retconned that Shaw was playing Team B. It would have salvaged some of the Sarah character’s middle arc character.

        Instead they retconned a relationship no one ever bought into. Yippee.

      • herder says:

        I listened to that podcast last night, the first that have bothered to try and found it very interesting. Nothing new, earthshaking or even something that hasn’t been stated here many times before, but for some reason it left me in a much better frame of mind for season four.

        One thing that I did think of while listening, not that it was adressed in the podcast is that last year there was a tremendous amount of goodwill towards the writers and really they got a pass from most people for the first part of the season. At least I gave them the benefit of the doubt, really up to Fake Name, they kind of lost me after that and there may have been a bit of over critisism for the next few episodes as over compensation for the free pass at the start of the season. I don’ think that the same sort of willingness to go too far exists this year, by the same token I think that TPTB realize that they don’t have as long a leash this year as they had last year and I expect good things fairly quickly.

    • jason says:

      what is frustrating about reading darth’s comments, is Darth is not particularily a huge shipper outwardly, yet what he just wrote would be immensely satisfying to me, with maybe a tweek here or there, my mistrust of the showrunners is very deep, I don’t think what we get will be anything nearly as friendly to Chuck and Sarah’s shipper fandom – I also saw on another blog a famous CS anti shipper layout his plan for 4.13, again, I just went wow, all I want is 133 episodes of them going on missions together, with half of them or so ending happy, with some sort of awe shucks stuff

    • atcdave says:

      Gee Lou, you should write epic posts more often. I would very much enjoy the season you outlined. And I do agree we’re likely to see something along those lines. I do hope Chuck is honest with Sarah from the start, but the spoilers we’ve seen make that unlikely and your scenario is plausible with a speedy resolution, so its not a very big deal. I don’t care exactly what Chuck’s relationship to the CIA is, as long as we get teamB back together quickly, again I expect to be pleased with the result even if it takes a couple weeks to fall into place. I still prefer the idea of an early marriage but I don’t require it; either way I expect the Chuck/Sarah relationship to closely parallel his parents, which will lead to them having a good idea what sort of challenges lie ahead, and require some fortitude to face them and go forward anyway.

    • JC says:

      “For Chuck he is on a path of destiny.”

      Exactly, since Alma Mater we’ve seen Chuck wasn’t the everyman thrust into this world. This was what he was meant to do until his father and Bryce interfered in his life. We know Chuck was born to be a spy, he’s heroic and he has the natural skills. The only things he was missing were confidence and purpose, which he has now.

      What I curious about is how they play MEB’s feelings about Chuck being a spy. Orion feared for Chuck being involved and left. We know he kept watch from the shadows and tried to keep Chuck and Ellie away from it. I wonder if MEB was doing opposite to some degree. Did she realize this was Chuck’s destiny no matter what. Has she been preparing for the day when he finally embraced his destiny.

    • thinkling says:

      Sounds like a fun scenario. I think it’s a likely one, and I can live with it. But it’s not my favorite.

      I’m not sure I want the CS relationship to be a parrot of Mama & Papa B’s or for the elder Bartowski’s relationship to inform their own decisions. I would like them to decide their own path up front, which would include a commitment to each other and to the search for Chuck’s mom, come what may. For me it would make sense for Chuck to realize early on that his dad did things the hard way and that he doesn’t want to repeat his father’s mistakes. Just as Chuck realized he couldn’t drive off, leaving Sarah in CIA detention, neither can he pursue his destiny without her. Lone wolf just isn’t the way to go. For me the sooner he realizes that, the less crippled the show is.

      I also see that as a powerful argument for an earlier engagement. She needs to know what she’s marrying into and choose it as her own, not just be dragged along until she resigns herself to it, or be kept in the dark and taken by surprise. It would be a big step in maturity for Chuck to be so honest with her.

      The other thing is that this is all about family. It works much better for me with Sarah on the inside of the family, rather than being on the outside most of the season. It’s a stronger season with her equally invested as a Bartowski (or an almost Bartowski).

      From reading through the posts, some people want to see CS work through a host of issues and then decide to get married. I would rather see them get married (or engaged) and let that be the strength they rely on to work through their issues. Marriage-later creates another wt/wt, tentative scenario. I’m tired of that. It’s been done 100 ways from Sunday. Time to put them together definitively (I may have to settle for a firm decision on their part) and move the whole show forward with them as a couple. Can they have issues? Sure, but face them as a confirmed couple.

      Realistically, I’m not sure Chuck can stay out of the CIA. First of all, bad guys don’t retire. He’d probably be safer IN the CIA. Second, I want Team B, especially Chuck and Sarah, going on missions together every week. I’m not sure how they can do that with her in the CIA and him not. Third, General Beckman’s protection can’t overrule the law. If Chuck is a spy on his own, almost everything he does is illegal. SO, I would like to see team B with some sort of special CIA status that allows them to pursue Orion-type missions and at the same time provides them legal cover for the things spies do. (Also his walking away negates all of s3 and makes the angst all the more pointless.)

      I suppose Timothy Dalton could be Bryce or Shaw, but he’s 10 years older than MamaB. I’d rather something new and different for him.

      I very much like Sarah finding MamaB first. After all she found PapaB, whom she liked from the beginning. When that happens, I don’t know what to expect. Is MamaB good or bad (I go toward good b/c of the necklace half she wears as a bracelet). Will Sarah trust her, probably not at first. Have she and Sarah crossed paths before? Hmm. I think in some way that MamaB has been trying to protect her family behind the scenes. If so, she would have to have some sense of a kindred spirit with Sarah, who loves Chuck and would do anything for him. So that, in my mind, is the bonding point of their relationship. When they meet, though, I want it to be as in-laws … or at least soon-to-be in-laws.

      • Crumby says:

        What if Timothy Dalton was Mama B’s Graham?

        I’m also curious about who Roark was for them. He had this line in Dream Job: “You always did have a way with machines, Orion. And remember? I always had… Well, I always had a way with the girls.” Was there history with Mama B too?

      • Crumby says:

        Oh, Timothy Dalton could also be there Casey!

      • thinkling says:

        @Crumby: That would be interesting, either one actually. Graham would make him possibly not trustworthy (I never liked Graham). Casey would make him a good guy. I like either of those better than Bryce/Shaw.

  7. Crumby says:

    I think those wedding talks have several origins.

    Like jason said, TPTB are the one that put that in the fans heads, not the other way around. If TPTB had said “they’re together for good this season but there won’t be a wedding”, fans would have accepted it. There’s no point in telling us whether there would be a wedding or not in advance, after all we have to watch to know, but they are the ones that put that discussion out there. I’m in the “it’s too soon” side on this one and I wouldn’t have considered a wedding that early if it hadn’t been for the spoilers/buzz.

    The only expectations that mattered in S3 were the ones about having an awesome entertaining show with a lot of heart and characters we love. They failed. We’ve been over this already but if S3 had been great written and executed, whether CS were together or not wouldn’t have mattered. I personally wasn’t even against the idea of PLIs when the season began, and despite the Shaw disaster I still think it could have work. What we got just wasn’t great, that’s all.

    That’s why I think fans expresses themselves strongly about this. Fans don’t trust TPTB anymore and are looking for reassurance that CS will stay together. A marriage would do that, if TPTB were going to divorce them they probably wouldn’t live that much long to see it! You know, if there is a S5, I’m not sure they wouldn’t separate them again. The phrase “Chuck and Sarah are together THIS SEASON” resonates in my head, and I’m sure TPTB would find a good reason (or not) to take them apart if that’s the story they want to tell.

    Indeed, I’m not sure about what TPTB really understood that went wrong. And every talk about CS really doesn’t reassure me. The talks about dark/light tone either for that matter. If they think that because CS are together they can make the same mistakes than last year, they’re wrong. If they think that a lighter tone is required, they’re also wrong. S3 just happened to be bad with CS separated and a darker tone, but it wasn’t why it was bad. Therefore, discussing what we want or don’t want to see is a way of trying to prevent another failure. I do agree with you about the need to not have strict expectations and take what we get and not what could have been. But I also think that a discussion about whether a marriage is a good idea or not highlights that most of the fans agree on the same thing: they want CS committed to each other and working on their issues. Nobody, he’s saying we want them to just live happily ever after. Whatever way they chose to have CS together will be accepted if it’s well done and convincing.

    It also seems that an angst fest isn’t what a lot of fans want to see and the idea of CS getting married probably is linked with the idea of CS vs. the world, like Dave mentioned it, instead of having the drama coming from within the relationship. I don’t want them to stay together just because I’m a shipper but also because I need a break from all their CRM drama.

    Most importantly for me, I would completely accept a wedding (if the story is well told) because I want to see it happening someday and the show’s days are numbered. We already lost so much opportunities last year…

    • sd says:

      I am a big shipper but I think we haven’t seen C/S work through some real couple issues (where to put the guns–not under the sofa—doesn’t count IMHO)

      In fact, besides an obvious physical attraction, respect for each other, their respective careers and a love for sizzling shrimp—what do they really have in common?

      Bottom line: For me, an engagement and wedding would be “earned” as another poster put it, if we saw C/S work together as a couple with at least some shared interests…not just chasing bad guys or Mama B

      • Crumby says:

        I agree that there’s plenty to tell before an engagement.

        However they do have a lot in common. They have the same sense of right and wrong. They like how the other’s brain works. They would both do anything for each other. They like who they are when they’re with each other. And now they actually want the same thing: a life together.

        I’m sure there’s plenty of other things.

      • jason says:

        so far, since 3.14, we’ve seen cs first thing in the morning several times, in all cases, together or apart, the look refreshed and over the moon happy, that pretty much can mean only one thing – since this is a family blog, I will let you figure it out – but that is a great thing to have in common – I hope that implied passion continues for the duration of the show, it can cover up some of the stupid things TPTB seem destined to write into their scripts

      • sd says:

        I agree fellow posters…they have a shared “world view”, I guess for lack of better way of describing it. But for some reason, I would like to see a shared “hobby” that doesn’t include work or a moral compass.

      • atcdave says:

        I do agree sd that common interests are a very important part of any relationship. But we also have to remember the limitations of the format. We get 43 minutes in 13 chunks. I think that’s called “time critical.” Its hard to establish much outside of the main plots in that time. I would also add that the middle part of S1 (1.03 through 1.08) established a lot of the hanging out and being friends part of their relationship. Of course that was early in the “cover” phase of the relationship, but given Sarah’s later admission she’s loved Chuck since the beginning; I’m comfortable with saying those early friendship building experiences were the real deal. I expect we’ll see a little more of that again this season with the “couply” part of the relationship. But my bet is we’ll get more “A” plot this season, and less “establishing” of things.

  8. Crumby says:

    One another note, this wedding picture cracks me up everytime! It is Chuck and Sarah on it, and yet it is so not them.

    • sd says:

      Agreed! I find it soooo funny, too. Did we think that when we first saw it way back when…or b/c of their character growth do we now see it that way?

  9. thinkling says:

    @Dave: I’m in total agreement with you about marriage (and Don Francisco …there’s a name I didn’t expect to see). You’re right about the statistics. Logically and statistically speaking, living together is practicing divorce, not marriage. Why? Because the back door is always open. Marriage closes the back door and provides a secure environment for a couple to grow, without the impending possibility that the other person is free to leave at any time. Hence, the statistical correlation that living together is considered more stressful than marriage.

    The ultimate expression of love is commitment. As such commitment should lead, not trail, in establishing an intimate relationship. Living together relegates commitment to a future that’s being built on weaker foundations. I also don’t buy into their having to live together longer to get to know each other better. Marriage isn’t something you enter into once you know everything about your partner and have a perfect relationship with all the kinks worked out. It’s the workshop where you spend a lifetime learning each other and hammering out your relationship, striving toward, though never achieving perfection. I know that’s not how most people look at it any more and I’m not imposing my viewpoint on anyone else. That’s just my take … since Dave opened the door.

    All of that to say that I think marriage would be good for Chuck and Sarah … and for “Chuck.” TPTB have pretty much passed the point of no return. If they tear C/S apart now, they will end the show for sure, so they might as well seal the deal. And I’m sooo tired of the angst. I’d like to see them grow in the context of marriage, so we and they can know that they are in it for keeps, and the relationship is not threatened by every bump in the road. As for comedy and drama, marriage would provide an almost inexhaustible source of material.

    As for C/S, they’ve both said that they want to spend the rest of their lives together. Their love for each other is certain. So, engagement seems to me the logical next step. I only see two critical areas they need to deal with prior to or even parallel with an engagement: 1) the lying and 2) relationship priorities. Both of these, interestingly enough are in Chuck’s corner.

    The lying has been talked about a lot already. I’ll just add that I would be so happy to discover that Chuck has already told Sarah about the family basement and his mother. And that she is just upset with him for doing stuff without her. I don’t think that’s the way TPTB will do it, but she is the first person he should have told.

    Then, Chuck’s relationship with Ellie needs to grow up a little. Ellie’s extorting the promise from Chuck not to be a spy was beyond the appropriate bounds of their adult relationship, as was his agreement to it. Granted the circumstances were extreme, so given that, I would really like for her to realize this and release him from that promise. If not, he needs to ask to be released. Their future is for him and Sarah to decide together. Even if the promise is not specifically addressed, Ellie needs to come to terms with the fact that Chuck is an adult, in charge of his own life, and she shouldn’t ask him to be less than he is. Ellie needs to accept that Sarah is more capable of protecting him than she is, and in fact, has been doing so for three years. Sarah is his best girl, and Ellie needs to hand him over to her.

    As for Sarah, I think she has shown that she wants marriage: in her conversations with Casey and Carina … in her eyes watching Devon give Ellie her ring, watching Chuck through Ellie and Devon at their wedding. It might be a little daunting at first, but deep down I think that’s what she wants. So I think the idea would grow on her fairly quickly.

    So, yeah, get ’em hitched. Let them grow and learn together. And let them do great spy things together. Oh, yeah, and turn of the angst mill. Drama is fine, but no more gratuitous angst, please.

    • jason says:

      @thinkling – I find it interesting that most pro media people said if CS get together as a couple the show is over, now they are saying if CS get married the show is over, for me, if CS split up, the show is over, I don’t think I am alone on this issue

      My wife’s sister talks to me as if I am my wife, she told me years ago, I know she tells you everything anyhow, and half the time I end up getting your advice thru her, I may as well go straight to the horses mouth – quite a compliment really – for CS – that really is the ultimate for me – a trust that everyone around knows exists, and that they are sure of too, certain of, cannon so to speak, epic trust, the mythology of chuck revolves around the trust between chuck and sarah, the kind of game changing trust that overcomes anything and everything in an epic manner – LOL

      • thinkling says:

        Exactly Jason, it’s splitting them up that would end the show, b/c their relationship is the anchor of the show. I think not getting them together would have done the same thing. Fish or cut bait certainly applies.

        I love the trust, too. That’s why I want the lying thing put to rest, never to rise again. Can’t we please get past that.

    • atcdave says:

      Wow Thinkling, thanks for a very well expressed agreement. Its obvious our …um… minority world view is the same! I dislike the “earning” view and see it more as about a commitment, a blessing, and a “leap of faith.” The characters certainly talk married anyway (the running away together talk on the train; the something to fall back on talk in Role Models; and Sarah’s “I love you” from Tooth), I’d love to see them make it legal.

      Yeah I know, still a minority view…

      • thinkling says:

        Hehe. One of my favorite lines was Sarah on the train. While Chuck was busy second guessing his cover, Sarah just looks at him over her cup of coffee and says, “Chuck, we’re running away together.” Perfectly delivered by Yvonne and so indicative of Sarah’s level of marriage willingness.

        That’s why her back pedaling in Role Models and Truth sort of struck me as odd. And so I guess I won’t gasp at more back pedaling. Though, I think it’s time to forward pedal.

      • atcdave says:

        Yeah I know Thinkling, I remember having that discussion at the time. Running away together strikes me a “marriage” of sorts (that line you reference was so funny and well delivered), and then Sarah balked at moving in like it was too much?! (if she was trying to get a proposal out of the deal I could see it, but the “back off” vibe was a big disconnect to me). Oh well, it was fun and funny which is most of what I’m looking for. I don’t expect Veggie Tales level morality from a major studio production.

      • joe says:

        @Dave I’m becoming less and less convinced it’s a minority view!

        And to both, that’s not the only back-peddle that’s bothered me. Just because I saw it again just recently, there’s an unusual one between the end of Best Friend and the start of Suburbs It’s all confused up, partly because of the late change in the order they were aired, but I believe that the intent was for Chuck and Sarah to be holding hands, and Chuck telling her that, yes indeed, you have someone that cares for you at end of BF, followed by Chuck staring at all the monitors showing the movie Must Love Dogs, Morgan’s consternation over any level of commitment with Anna and the implications of Valentine’s Day with Sarah. It’s a real head-snapper. At first I thought it was very unnecessary and dumb.

        It only makes sense to me after understanding that despite everything, Chuck is still thinking his relationship with Sarah is a lie. He has to, and she needs him to believe that. The fact that I think both characters are impossibly blind and aggravatingly stupid about their love is actually by design. It’s a tactic TPTB use a lot.

        Schwedak knows I’ll be back for more and looking for that pay-off. 😉

      • thinkling says:

        Agreed 🙂

      • thinkling says:

        @Joe: Didn’t those air out of order. I think I read that. If Best Friend comes after Suburbs it flows a little better. I cannot explain the beginning of suburbs, unless it’s still an aftermath of Santa Claus. It was indeed a head-snapper.

      • atcdave says:

        Its the other way around Thinkling. The air dates and discs have Suburbs first; but Best Friend was supposed to come before.
        I think at the start of Suburbs we’re supposed to see that they like each other but can’t quite figure out what to do with it. Chuck suggests “they give their covers a night off” possibly setting up a “real” something; but Sarah misunderstands and thinks he’s blowing her off. I think their awkwardness is friendly, its just awkward.
        The Suburbs ends with Sarah’s shutting Chuck off after the “honeymoon is over speech” from Beckman which leads to demoralized Chuck and the breakup at the beginning of Beefcake.

      • thinkling says:

        Thanks, Dave. Good explanation. It was a great episode, if you cut out the beginning and the end.

  10. Joseph (can't be Joe) says:

    Until Chuck and Sarah can openly and honestly talk to one another about EVERYTHING in a grown up fashion, any type of wedding is doomed before it starts.

    If fact if they don’t start openly and honestly talking to one another about everything in a grown up fashion SOON in S4, there is a proverbial “cloud of doom” hanging over the relationship.

  11. Gord says:

    I was thinking that we would see an engagement early this season – in fact I speculated that the engagement would come in Vs the Anniversary, because what would be more romantic than popping the question on the anniversary of when you first met the love of your life.

    However, I did expect a long engagement before a wedding. I figured if they got the back 9, then we would see the wedding in the final episode of the season, or perhaps not until early in S5.

    From a standpoint of humour, I thought trying to juggle spy missions and planning a wedding would work quite well. Not in every episode, but the occassional episode much like the Devon/Ellie wedding.

    • amyabn says:

      I also loved one of the deleted scenes from S2 where Sarah is freaking out because Ellie keeps calling her. She says something to the effect that she has handled secret service protection details, etc, but the wedding is freaking her out. Chuck calmly grabs the phone and handles it.
      Could be a funny role reversal if Sarah plans the wedding all military style (precision planning, etc) and Chuck is the one who starts freaking out. It probably wouldn’t have the impact since they cut the scene and it isn’t canon, but could be funny!

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Amy, come on, we all know Casey is the wedding planner of the team. The man knows his bunting.

      • Gord says:

        I could see things happening like they would be going into a jewelry store to pick out the rings and Chuck flashes on a bad guy behind the counter.

        As for having a wedding or even an engagment this year, my only reason for seeing something like this happening was that I figured in the season finale there would be a big family event that Mama B would take part in.

        Based on spoilers we have heard, the big family event could be the birth of the Awesome twins. Yes I’m speculating it will be fraternal twins – a boy and a girl, who will be named Steven and Mary. With any luck we will be treated to a scene where Casey and Morgan have to babysit.

  12. herder says:

    Not quite sure who to respond to so I’ll do a general post to reply to a bunch of things brought up today, excellent discusion by the way.

    I do expect an engagement this season, but in truth I’m not to fussed if it’s early of late. I do expect that there will be discussions about their future together and things/issues that they need to be on the same page about to make it work.

    As to what is and isn’t the “majority” point of view, I think that TPTB thought that last year the online community was vocal, but not necessarily representative of how the majority of the fan base viewed the issue of PLI’s. I think that they were wrong in that instance, but it doesn’t follow that what ever issue the online community cares deeply about is the “majority” point of view. Sometimes a vocal minority is just that, a vocal minority. My take is that the push for a wedding is just that, a vocal minority. Sort of like the saying that the Dow Jones has predicted nine of the last three recessions.

    Also I think that a distinction should be made between an engagement and a wedding. I’d be wuite content if there was an engagement without a wedding this year (on the flip side, I’d enjoy a wedding too, but I don’t think that it is necessary).

    What I do want to see again this year is the absolute commitment to one another (the willingness to run through walls for each other) that was there in the first two years but got lost in the first thirteen last year. To me the appeal of the show is the fierce love, commitment and respect for each other that is shown in so many of the relationships, not just the Chuck/Sarah one. Think about it: Morgan’s absolute faith in Chuck, “Morgan is my family”, “Chuck said to stall?”, “you’re a Bartowski, act like one”, “I won’t let anything happen to you”, “you’ve got it wrong about Walker, she’s the best partner I’ve ever had”, “off the record, i’s about damn time”.

    What I want to see this season, in no particular order is: Ellie the lion not Ellie the nag, Awesome being Awesome, Casey moving further away from “Casey, that burn out”, Jeff and Lester being creepy in a funny way, Morgan growing up, Sarah becoming a real girl albeit one who can kick butt and Chuck embracing his destiny without losing his everyman persona. Truth be told, a wedding isn’t big on the list.

  13. Crumby says:

    You guys (and gals Amy :)) were talking about strategy that TPTB might use regarding the “wedding buzz”. I’m wondering why this lie thing about the OC is played that way.

    They told us that Chuck and Morgan will search for Mom.

    They are now telling us Chuck must keep it from Ellie and the CIA.

    What they didn’t tell us is whether or not Chuck has told Sarah about it.

    At that point, it has to be done on purpose, so why would they do that?

    • alladinsgenie4u says:

      “What they didn’t tell us is whether or not Chuck has told Sarah about it.”

      Now that you say it – not in one interview have they said that Chuck is hiding the secret from Sarah.It is Ellie who has been mentioned repeatedly. So point to ponder – if Chuck “must keep” his search a secret from the CIA – does that mean he can/he may divulge it to Sarah -the girlfriend and not Sarah -the CIA agent.

      • thinkling says:

        Maybe what they don’t say is as revealing as what they do say.

        Best case: she already knows. Other than that, the sooner she knows the better.

        But we know she will find out and be part of the search, b/c Yvonne said, “the story is going to take us into finding Chuck’s mother.”

  14. OldDarth says:

    Hypothetical question – what if Sarah knows right off the bat in 4.01 that her mission is to find MamaB and she is under orders not to tell Chuck?

    How does that sit with everyone?

    • Merve says:

      Sarah has shown her willingness not to follow orders before. Unless she is foolishly trying to avoid inflicting any sort of emotional pain on Chuck, I don’t see why she wouldn’t tell him.

      • thinkling says:

        Might be kind of fun. Ultimately it would probably play out like Juan Diego Arnaldo on the train. “Chuck, I can’t fake this, not with you.”

        I think she would tell him; and hopefully sooner rather than later, they would be on the same page.

      • OldDarth says:

        Interesting.

    • atcdave says:

      Ideally, I also think Sarah would/should just spill the beans and let Chuck know about her search. As I said elsewhere, I do hold them both to the same standard, I don’t want to see Chuck/Sarah lying or sneaking around on each other. I want to see them as a team all season long. It seems likely all will not be right at the start, bummer; but as long as things are fixed fairly quickly its not too big a deal.

      • thinkling says:

        Agreed, Dave. The show is at its best when they are better as a team (Graviton), and the show is better, too. I understand they have explored some interesting ups and downs (and some not so interesting ones), but over all if CS are apart on either plain, for very long, the show is crippled.

        At this point I have more faith in Sarah to spill the beans than Chuck. As you say, hopefully it all gets fixed quickly. There are so many great things for them to do together!

    • Crumby says:

      I think that issue will come later. For know I don’t see why the CIA would know about MEB, but when they do, Casey and Sarah may hide some stuff from Chuck. I think TPTB will explore that at least in one episode, right? Don’t want to see that though, I’m fine with Sarah withholding stuff from her past but stuff form present and future aren’t the same. Especially if it directly concerns Chuck. They both have to be honest with each other.

      Maybe they’ll use that situation to show us their growth as a couple, with Sarah spilling the beans.

    • jason says:

      really simple OD – chuck lying to sarah = bad, adding sarah lying to chuck = worse

      as far as ‘letting the dogs out’ – way too early to be getting sarcastic towards the shippers, that is the attitude that you guys who are for balance had last season – how did that work out?

      I think season 4 is overall going to be very good for shippers, not great, but very good. my only fear at all is the show really can not afford too many slip ups to get renewed, no run of 2-3 bad eps allowed. I just don’t understand why the early released stuff does not really pander to the crowd they lost last year, i.e. the shippers. talk about an epically overused word, shippers gotta be high on that list – LOL

      • OldDarth says:

        You could take it further and consider that Chuck is acting under orders from his father.

        Its a very interesting predicament with no clear cut answer.

        Jason as to ‘letting the dogs out’ being taken as being specifically targeted to shippers, you have drawn an incorrect inference.

        That was for all fans tired of the lying.

      • thinkling says:

        @Jason – “I just don’t understand why the early released stuff does not really pander to the crowd they lost last year”

        That’s a head-scratcher for me, too. All this talk of S4 being lighter, like S2, not dark like S3 …and then the promos lead us to believe that Chuck is still lying to Sarah. As far as I can tell, hardly anybody, shipper or not, likes the lying.

        2.01 was a feel-good episode. 3.01 was a downer of major proportions. I don’t initially get a very feel-good vibe for 4.01 from the promos. And truthfully I was hoping to return to feel-good mode.

      • Crumby says:

        OD, that’s the interesting part of the synopsis: “Chuck MUST keep…”

        I’m curious to know the reason. Did his father tell Chuck to keep this from the CIA and Ellie? If he did, did he gave him a specific reason? Or is Chuck doing this on is own judgment? If he chose to lie, what are his reasons?

        If TPTB managed to justify the lies better than in the Back 6, that’s good.

        The same goes for Sarah for that matter. If she hides information to Chuck about MEB, she better have a good reason.

        I’m also curious about who is entitled behind “the CIA” of course. 😉

      • Joseph (can't be Joe) says:

        Go reread the synopsis for 3.01. That really got everyone thrilled for last season. (dripping sarcasm)

        The synopsis for 4.01 is suffering from the effects of last season. There is little goodwill floating around like there was last year.

        Though excited for a new season, TPTB will have to “prove it” to us (read “me”) essentially every week.

        If they manage to put a smile on my face every week (and fix the Sarah character) I’ll be willing to cut them some slack.

      • atcdave says:

        I think Joseph really hit the nail on the head here. Going into S2 we were mostly excited and optimistic. They got many of us ticked off before S3 ever even started and the product showed our fears were justified. So now we are cautious about everything we see reguarding S4; they restored some goodwill late in S3, but no where near as much as they squandered in the front 13.

      • atcdave says:

        Jason and Thinkling, I also agree about the tone of what we’re hearing. I hate put TPTB in a position where they have to pander to us, but it is a little confusing why they are doing things fans have so clearly said they don’t want to see. From 3.16 on we were all complaining about Chuck’s lying, and here they’re starting the new season on the same note!

        It is a lot like last season when fan opinion was pretty clearly opposed to the direction TPTB meant to take the show, but they pushed ahead anyway.
        Don’t get me wrong, I expect no where near the fubar we saw last season. But it does make you wonder if they learned any lesson or not.

      • Joseph (can't be Joe) says:

        Remember, last season everyone said Chuck and Sarah would be back together early in S3, and by episode 5 or 6 we were saying and hoping it would happen in the next episode, and the next episode, and the next episode, until it happen so quick in the initial final episode that if you blinked you missed it.

        We are already starting down the same road where it pertains to lying and secret keeping this season.

      • treecrab says:

        OD, Orion is dead. Sarah is still alive. Who cares if his father gave him orders?

  15. Crumby says:

    Thinkling, the pregnancy announcement will probably light the mood. There’s also the Buy More and first Greta. AND Dianne will show some leg… Finally, the “Anniversary” part of the episode might also be a feel good part.

    We’re all very focused on the lies because of last year but there will be plenty of other things to enjoy.

    • thinkling says:

      Yes, I think you’re right. I also think TPTB take uncommon delight in needling us. I’ll enjoy what comes and expect that things will be on a positive trajectory early on. 🙂

  16. Rick Holy says:

    Getting onto this thread rather late, but here goes. To me – and it’s no mystery that I fall under the “shipper” category – it really doesn’t matter this season whether they get married or engaged. Just the fact that they’re “together” I find very satisfying.

    The “keeping them apart” by often (though not always) what seemed to be artificial/contrived/re-re-re-peated methods got EXTREMELY old and frustrating.

    I’m not going to be so bold as to say I speak for everybody, or even the majority of CHUCK fans. But for me, especially after Sarah’s revelation to Chuck in episode 13 of Season 3 about falling for him between the time he fixed her phone and when he diffused the bomb with a computer virus (which all took placed in the Pilot episode of S1), this show has ALWYAS been primarily about Chuck AND Sarah. Chuck’s heroe’s journey? Sure, I’ll buy into that as part of the story line – even a big part – but it was about Chuck’s heroe’s journey WITH Sarah (whether they were “officially” apart or together).

    Take the “and Sarah” aspect out of anything “Chuckish” on the show, and the show is a lot less interesting in my humble opinion. Chuck and Sarah are both complex characters in their own particular ways – and their stories are I believe what drive the show.

    So again. Engagement, marriage – don’t really care. Just no more contrived reasons for keeping them apart. It’s a better story – and I think WILL be a better story – with them together however that might be.

  17. Robert H says:

    Man this is unbelievable. So many comments about
    where everything is going and the episodes haven’t even aired yet!

    However I will say this. I wish the showrunners,TPTB
    or however they portray themselves cared as much about their show as all of you above do. If they did
    Season 3 would not have been the disaster it was and
    the show would be on much more solid ground now.

    About an engagement/wedding I just don’t know. I think part of this will be affected by how well or
    how poorly the show does this year. Will there be
    enough time for a logical progression from proposal
    to engagement to wedding? Doe the show get or not get a back 6 or 9 order from NBC? Does it fit in with the storyline TPTB want to tell or is that going to be affected by ratings issues and rebuilding the fan base (assuming the showrunners
    even care about that)? Is there really the possibility of a 5th season assuming the show rebounds well this year? Again I just don’t know
    and who really does at this point?

    From a character point of view I’m inclined to agree
    somewhat with parts of what Crumby,Joesph,atcdave,and Rick Holy had to say but
    I’ll also include a few comments of my own here.
    By the way Rick, good to see you back. Always appreciated your input.

    I personally feel that an engagement/wedding at this
    point is way ahead of the curve at this time unless
    other factors (as pointed out above) would compel an
    engagement/wedding rush in an attempt to keep or get
    more viewers if things go south with the ratings and
    honestly I don’t think it would work anyway. Viewers
    would never accept it if done for ratings alone and
    would signal desperation for the show’s survival. It
    may get to that point anyway. I hope not but it may.
    I simply don’t trust those guys (the producers) any
    more.

    Having said that, relating to the characters why get
    engaged or married now? What’s the rush? They’ve just gotten together as a couple and apart from a
    sexual relationship just how close are they really
    on an emotional level? Right now they have serious issues and those issues are going to get worse before they get better. We all now what they are-poor emotional communication, lies and more lies,
    a nagging,insecure, and shrewish sister who won’t
    let go, a brother who can’t or won’t stand up to her, both people not sure of immediate not to mention long term priorities, much less of how to
    address them, a supposedly “dead” father, a missing
    mother who is clearly going to have a huge impact on
    all of them (good or bad), a woman (Sarah) trying to
    reconcile a past life totally opposite to her current one with all of the issues that entails, a man (Chuck) who says he “loves” her but continually,
    almost routinely keeps secrets from her and makes
    decisions that impact both their lives without consulting with her beforehand (caving into Ellie’s
    demands,leaving the CIA, making promises he can’t
    possibly keep thus generating more lies, keeping his
    health issues from Sarah, the “bromance”-Morgan etc)

    Given all of these unresolved issues and setting aside the time factor, how can the idea of an engagement much less a wedding be taken seriously
    this year? Of course this is a tv show, not real
    life. The writers/producers can do anything they
    want but any show has to have some relationship to
    reality to mantain at least minimum credibility.

    Don’t get me wrong. When the series ends I would love to see a formal wedding with the idea they will
    spend the rest of their lives together happily.
    But are they ready for that right now? With due respect for all of the views expressed above and I
    enjoyed reading them all the idea of an engagement/
    wedding now really strikes me the wrong way. They
    just are not ready for it yet. Eventually, hopefully, they will be but not now. They have a lot
    of growing as a couple to go through first.

    That’s just my take on all of this, right or wrong.
    Really enjoyed reading all of the different opinons
    above, thanks.

    • atcdave says:

      Just to start with, I do agree the “being together” idea is most important at this point. But to me, it is pointless to try to work out difficulties first. We are all flawed individuals, and typically, fixing one set of personal or relationship problems just reveals the next set of problems. I don’t mean that to suggest working on character or relationship problems is not a good idea; but rather it is a part of life and should never be a pre-condition for marriage. If you can’t marry a prospective partner as is, its time to start looking elsewhere.
      Perhaps I’m not saying this very well, but I strongly believe if you’re sure enough about someone to sleep or live with them; you are sure enough to marry them. Period. You make the vow then get to work. The other way around is statistically proven not to function as well. To me, Chuck and Sarah should have married at the end of 3.13. I’m not loosing any sleep over how the writers are telling their story, I’m only saying that’s how I would tell it.

      • jason says:

        dave – I think we will see only a handful of CS dustups, first one is however the first lie to sarah confide in morgan plays out, then however the nicole ritchie things plays out, the first fight is going to be ugly, bad, not good in 4.7 (same ep # as mask LOL), then I assume somewhere around 11 or 12 there will be a pre engagement or pre wedding CS smackdown. That is the type of show you and I signed up for, no different than season 1 or 2, that is all these guys (TPTB) got in their magic satchels to give. I will make a prediction, no engagement, just a wedding out of the blue, 4.13.

      • jason says:

        one more thing, I will guess the gender reversal will be sarah dodges the wedding ? for the middle part of the season, then asks chuck out of the blue.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I think the “gender switch” has been previewed. Sarah was the stoic emotionally closed “guy” in the relationship for most of the series. In the back 6 it was Chuck keeping secrets to protect her and Sarah opening up to Chuck. I think they are hinting more of the same in season 4.

      • jason says:

        ernie – where did you get that, I think just the opposite? I hope you are right, not that it is good that chuck is lying, but it would be nice to see crazy in love sarah 3.14 thru 3.19 continue on her path into season 4, not revert to sarah season 1/2, which is what I sort of think they meant?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Schwedak have often talked about the role reversal between Chuck and Sarah. It’s still around pretty much in Role Models. Chuck cleans compulsively while waiting for the Turners, Sarah sits on the couch with a drink. Chuck wants to talk about moving in, Sarah brushes him off and says we’ll talk later. But around Tooth suddenly Sarah is all about opening up and discussing their future and their relationship and it’s Chuck who starts to close off and keep secrets. I think the secret search for mom will be the reason, and Sarah will know Chuck is keeping something from her or will know what he’s doing but won’t approve or won’t like having to keep it from the CIA.

      • JC says:

        And there always the question of if and what Sarah might be keeping from Chuck about MEB.

      • atcdave says:

        I think, and hope, Ernie is right about the role reversal issue. Sarah has always been sort of the man in the relationship. One review I saw back before the show even aired described it as a classic story of a knight in shining armor and a damsel in distress; of course Chuck is the damsel and Sarah the knight. So I do think the role reversal aspect has been there since the beginning.

      • thinkling says:

        I’ll throw my hat in the ring with Dave again. He said, “If you’re sure enough about someone to sleep or live with them; you are sure enough to marry them.” Perhaps the contrapositive is more clear: If you’re not sure enough to marry someone, then you’re not sure enough to sleep or live with them. In prevailing cultural practice, there is a disconnect between marriage and intimacy that pushes couples into an intimate relationship too soon or postpones marriage too long.

        If the person has character issues that you just can’t live with, don’t date or quit dating, don’t sleep with them or move in together to see if they’ll change. If you love the person as is (accepting that they have faults, though ones you can live with) and you want to spend the rest of your life with them (or, better yet, can’t imagine spending your life without them), then tie the knot (really tight) and hang on. As Dave said, get to work. Not that it’s all work, of course (woohoo, it’s a great adventure). It just feels more like work some times than others. There will always be issues, and each phase of life brings a whole new set of issues you didn’t ask for. It’s commitment, not a test-drive, that gets you through them.

        Applied to our favorite couple, it’s pretty clear that they love each other as is and can’t imagine a future without each other. They’ve each expressed that in a variety of words and ways. So, tie the knot. That’s our view. It’s not the show runners’ view, though, so we are happy that at lease they are together. (And it’s a TV show, after all.)

        The issues Robert mentioned can be dealt with. Chuck has always been basically honest. Sarah can appeal to that quality, and they can work that out. I think Ellie will come around, and we’ve talked above about some satisfying scenarios for that. I can’t imagine she would withhold her blessing from Chuck and Sarah. As for Mama B, she’ll be who she is and think what she thinks, but CS have to live their lives.

      • atcdave says:

        Its obvious Thinkling and I share common views on many things! I want to get one last thought in on the subject, marriage is awesome. I never worry about my wife giving up or running off. We’ve promised before family, friends, and God to be there for each other; and it is the happiest situation to have a partner who you know will face anything with you.
        Now the funny thing is on Chuck, we are led to believe Chuck and Sarah are already that solid together. To me that suggests a sort of marriage whether they “make it legal” or not. I’m pretty happy with that as a viewer. I’d love to see them make it official, but I know it is simply subject to the writer’s sense of when they think it will be the fitting promotion or pay-off (my bet is still on this season). I can wait if I must.

      • herder says:

        Dave, your comment makes me think about something that I heard a number of years ago, talking about a couple someone said that they were married, just not Churched. That strikes me about the Chuck/Sarah relationship, they are already married in all but name, just not Churched.

      • atcdave says:

        Funny thing is Herder; I’d be completely good with it if they said that. I’m not big on all the formalities; I’m the sort who wears jeans to church every week. If a couple calls themselves married, and they live it; well that really appeals to the romantic in me.

  18. Ernie Davis says:

    On the other speculation thread Crumby was nice enough to post links to a few tweeted pics from cast members. One of which is already gone. It got me thinking. As spoilerphobic as Schwedak are you’d think the plots had a lot more twists and turns. Even the actors have said they don’t know what’s coming for their characters until about a week before they start shooting scenes. But as I think about it, other than Jill being Fulcrum I can’t think of any genuine holy cow (family website) moments so far. Thoughts?

    • Ernie Davis says:

      Now that you mention it the kung fu was a surprise. I fully expected him to download the intersect, but the Chuck Fu was a shocker.

      • thinkling says:

        I never saw previews or spoilers for s1-3, b/c I started watching in May 2010. As I think about it though they did pull a few surprises on me.

        No shock – saw it coming: El Ciudad, Papa B = Orion, Jill = Fulcrum, Shaw turning bad)

        They got me: Chuck Fu (big surprise, big smile); Bryce in the capsule (big surprise, big uh oh); Santa Claus (didn’t see Fulcrum coming); Sarah’s red test; Shaw’s return (thought he was gone, until the dreams); oh and the Orion Cave (that was a big surprise).

      • herder says:

        Thinkling, your post wasn’t up when I started mine, nice to see that a number of them matched up.

    • herder says:

      Oh there have been a bunch of Holy…cow moments, some have been sucessful others not so much. The problem with the tendancy to do this is that knowing that TPTB like to do this they can, in a sense, be predicted. Some of them are as follows:

      – Bryce might not be a bad guy (Alma Mater)

      – Bryce is alive (Imported Hard Salami)

      – Bryce is back (Seduction)

      – Ned is evil (Santa Claus)

      – Chuck has a plan (Lethal Weapon)

      – Papa B is Orion (Dream Job)

      – Guys, I know Kung Fu (Ring)

      – My name is Sam (Fake Name)

      – Sarah killed Eve Shaw (American Hero)

      – Shaw kills Orion (Subway)

      – The Orion Cave (Ring part II)

      They tend to pile these at the beginning or the end of a season. The trick is to think of the most improbable thing (within reason) and there is a good chance it will happen.

    • Crumby says:

      “Bryce is alive” was definitely a shocker for me.

  19. Robert H says:

    Well atcdave I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree
    about “being together”. As I said before this is a tv show, not real life. But assuming we are discussing these characters as if they are “real”
    then let’s take it from there.

    It’s one thing to accept an individual as he or she
    is. Nothing wrong with that within reason. None of us is perfect and never will be. However jumping into marriage simply on the basis of having slept or
    lived with someone because of “feelings” alone
    without resolving issues that could severely threaten the long term relationship strikes me as
    being simply absurd. I’m not talking about little
    things every couple has to work out but major problems that are not going to go away simply because a couple is married. In fact those problems
    make a marriage less likely to succeed if not addressed sooner rather than later. It’s a lot easier to get into a marriage than it is to get out
    of one. Poor communication between partners is a
    serious problem, not being 100% committed to your
    partner is a serious problem, consistently lying to
    your partner is a serious problem, making decisions
    that have a major impact on a couple without prior
    mutual consultation is a serious problem, allowing
    3rd parties (in this case a sister) to interfere in
    your relationship without discussing it with your
    partner is a serious problem, making career decisons
    that impact both lives without discussing it with
    your partner first is a serious problem, keeping life threatening or major health issues from your
    partner is a serious problem. I’ll stop here at this
    juncture but I think most people will see where I’m
    going with this. Chuck and Sarah have to deal with
    these issues and they will not go away simply because a marriage takes place. Marriage even under
    the best of cirumstances is difficult enough to
    execute successfully. It has to be worked at every
    day with the idea that both people are totally committed to making it work well and both people will do whatever is necessary to see that it does.

    Half the marriages in this country fail. That is a
    proven fact. The basis of a successful marriage is
    open, intimate emotional communication and mutual
    honesty not to mention other essentials which I won’t go into here, there isn’t time or space for that. Both people have to be willing to assume an equal share of the work necessary on a day to day basis while backing each other up when one or the
    other needs emotional support from time to time while at the same time not taking each other for granted. One person cannot consistently take the
    responsibility for two people. It simply doesn’t
    work that way.

    Based on what is currently going on in their relationship from what we have seen in prior episodes I simply cannot see a marriage or even an
    engagement taking place right now realistically.
    It simply doesn’t wash. Both people need to continue
    to grow individually as well as a couple. Can they
    overcome their problems? Yes as long as they come to
    realize as individuals and as a couple their single
    most overriding priority is EACH OTHER and not allow
    diversions or other issues to come between them. If
    they can do that, they’ll succeed and if not, sorry,
    but they will fail. Real life is unfortuneatly like
    that.

    But of course “Chuck” is a tv show not real life
    and the characters are not “real” people. We all
    know that. However I simply could not read the reply
    I saw above without challenging it.

    Nothing personal, thanks.

    • atcdave says:

      Robert, I don’t take this personally. As I said upfront, I know mine is the minority view and I’m fine with that. I understand your argument, I just think many don’t quite get mine. Divorce rates have gone up with the longer courtship and engagements that are common today. I think the most basic change is the understanding of commitment and intimacy. To me the physical intimacy and commitment are completely linked, I think its a mistake to try to have one without the other. Again, I know my view is not popular, I’m not surprised MOST people disagree. I do believe in “saving it” for marriage.
      Of course I also don’t believe marriage is that hard. In the body of the article I quoted the old Don Francisco song “Love is not a Feeling its an Act of Your Will.” When two people have decided they’re going to make it work together, well its a whole lot easier than if one is thinking its easy to bail out.

      I don’t expect to convince anyone of the “rightness” of my viewpoint. Much of that would require a shared a worldview that is not appropriate to discuss in this setting. I’m only saying, for some of us, a quick marriage for Chuck and Sarah seems appropriate now. I think for most of us, we know our view is no longer the majority view and don’t expect mainstream entertainment to cater to our every whim. But it is still what we consider ideal and would want to see if given a choice.

    • thinkling says:

      In response to Robert’s concerns and also to the marriage thread: (Sorry, but with 33 years of marriage, it’s a topic I’m fairly passionate about.) Marriage IS awesome. There is unparalleled security in the love that says, “I will never leave you no matter what.” Anything that lacks that force of commitment is inadequate to sustain a life-long relationship.

      Robert, I hear you. I agree that marriage isn’t to be entered into lightly. What I disagree with is the popular notion that a couple can be ready to live together, but not yet ready for marriage. If they’re not ready to marry, then they’re not ready to live together or sleep together.

      Living together isn’t marriage lite … for many of the reasons you mentioned. Marriage doesn’t just require commitment; it _IS_, by definition, commitment … commitment that prescribes certain behavior like open communication, honesty, joint decision making, and leaving family and becoming one. Cohabitation requires no commitment and makes no demands. That’s why it is not good preparation for marriage (to the contrary, it contributes heavily to the higher divorce rate). And it is an even less suitable environment to hammer out issues.

      I see two things with CS (our favorite fictional couple). First, developing throughout the series, I see an undeniable love (OK, Ernie, an arranged marriage, if you like) and a desire for commitment, expressed and demonstrated, that has a marriage kind of feel to it: the train vows; I want to spend the rest of my life with you (C); I can only think of a future with you (S). IMO, when fictional characters reach this stage, they can marry. I would have been fine with a quick marriage before boarding the Honeymoon express (or not so express) to Zürich.

      Second, the issues that need to be addressed were in large part contrived for the sake of the plot and came off as inconsistent. They don’t need a season’s worth of therapy or counseling to fix them … just a well written few scenes will do nicely. So, enough already. On with the arranged marriage. I like it 😉

      I’ll just add I really appreciate the discussions on this board. It’s so congenial. Some boards are mean. This one is really a lot of fun. So, thanks guys. You’re all great.

      • atcdave says:

        Wow Thinkling, 33 years, I bow to your worthiness. Makes my 13 seem pretty light, but I would say I’m still very happy with the whole marriage thing so far!

        You are right its nice to have a place where we can discuss these things pretty openly; many forums dissolve into flame wars pretty quickly. Its a testimony to everyone involved that we rarely have that problem here. I was still pretty nervous even broaching the topic in the main body though!

      • joe says:

        I feel like the marriage newbie with only 9 years with Mrs. Joe (she’s my blond Sara-without-an-h).

        We appreciate your kind words too, Thinkling.

      • thinkling says:

        One year at a time, and they add up unbelievably fast. Nice to have company 🙂

  20. Robert H says:

    Appreciate your comments atcdave although we don’t agree. On the other hand as I mentioned before, the
    issues are not life and death. We’re discussing a
    tv show with imaginary characters, not real life.

    I enjoy reading your comments and actually most of the time we do agree but that’s not really important. What is very good about this site is the
    diversity of views we can all share and thus learn
    from each other. None of us have all of the answers
    and we never will. Hopefully at the very least we
    can ask the right questions which gives all of us an opportunity to learn.

    I am looking forward to reading your future comments
    and analysis. Hopefully all of us will enjoy Season
    4 which is just a few weeks away.

    P.S. By the way Season 3 will be available tomorrow
    on DVD and Blueray. I intend, despite my bitter
    criticisms of Season 3, to buy it anyway. Maybe I
    can find something positive in it I may have missed
    earlier. So in a small sense I’m investing some time
    and money in the show. The prodigal shipper may be
    coming home. We’ll see on September 20th, thanks.

    • atcdave says:

      Yeah, I’ll be buying those discs too. I’m almost tempted not to, I already own the episodes I like in iTunes. But I do want to support the show (S4 has to be better, right?), and the special features may be worth the price of admission all by themselves.

    • joe says:

      Robert, I encourage you to watch. There’s a lot of great moments – I’m sure you know that. But the pacing is so much better when you can watch daily, rather than weekly (or in our case, monthly, in February during the Olympics).

      Chuck’s decent and Sarah’s anguish (and resignation) actually start to mean something when you see the blows coming one after another.

  21. Ernie Davis says:

    You know a lot of this has been interesting to look at. In a way Chuck and Sarah had an arranged marriage the first two seasons and they eventually chose to make it work by loving and trusting each other.

  22. jason says:

    I am guessing some of the open holes from s1 thru 3 will get addressed on one fell swoop, sarah will apparently die near the end of the arc, maybe around 4.10-4.12, and chuck will read her spy will, included in the will – her real name (not sam), her mom’s name (might be sam), some retcon like info about the nature of sarah and shaw, maybe prague and omaha, as well as some awe shucks mushy stuff toward chuck.

    Sarah will ‘die’ protecting chuck or some combo of his friends. MEB will save sarah’s life, that episode will end with MEB holding sarah’s wrist with the bracelet on it. MEB will bring sarah back, either to life, or to chuck just in time for … 4.13 to end with a wedding.

    Oh one more thing, Papa B will make the wedding.

    My rationale, NBC wants chuck fans to be reasonably content if the show does get cancelled, assuming the numbers do not recover, which I think NBC is pretty sure they won’t.

    • joe says:

      Nice, very dramatic scenario! I like it.
      Lemme suggest that while MEB does the rescuing, it’s Ellie and her neurological and emergency room skills that actually save Sarah, though.

      • herder says:

        They are going somewhere with Ellie’s neurological skills though. Didn’t the picture that Morgan came up with in the deleted scenes have something about her being in neurology too?

      • joe says:

        It did. I wasn’t quite sure, but it looked like a younger Ellie holding up a crayon drawing of a certificate or award of some sort to indicate she had been a part of a more elite group of physicians in that specialty.

        Oof! Sorry. Run-on sentence. The certificate I saw seemed to be not real, but indicative of something that was.

      • thinkling says:

        With these neurological skills, might we have an internal governor?

    • atcdave says:

      Intriguing scenario Jason. My money is on no mention of the spy wills ever being made again, but your version is more fun.

  23. herder says:

    Saw a promo, sort of, for Chuck on NBC. I was switching over to NBC during commercials to see if there were any. There was Chuck and Morgan on the couch asking what The Event was, Chuck then flashed on…The Event saying it was awesome, voice over that Chuck and The Event in two weeks and a split second view of Sarah. That was it. On a side note, Ryan McPartlin was doing an ad for an anti-allergy medication.

    • ChuckNewbie8 says:

      Has Chuck really reached that good of an audience to be the one to garner an audience for another show?

      Put it this way, has Chuck become the Golden Girls for Empty Nests? (Sidenote: back when the Golden Girls was on the air, they had an episode dedicated just to get Empty Nests–an upcoming show–some promotion and an audience).

      I guess for NBC they have. Now to have the Office talk about Chuck…

  24. Robert H says:

    Looks like speculation is burying Chuck for good
    even though the episodes haven’t even aired yet.

    Why? I’m not wildly optimistic about even getting a
    back 6 or 9 let alone a 5th season but let’s not sign the death cerficate until the show has officially expired shall we, lest a self fulfilling
    prophecy be created killing any chance at all of the
    show’s survival.

    It could well be that many people who stopped watching the show may come back to view the first
    few episodes if only out of curiosity if for no other reason. If they like what they see, the odds could be defied again as word of mouth spreads (which is the best advertising you can get) getting
    more people to watch the show , thus possibly boosting ratings. This certainly won’t happen if
    doom and gloom negativity takes over even before the
    episodes air.

    Why would NBC even renew the show if that’s really
    their attitude? What would be the point? From a
    business point of view it would be a case of simply
    throwing good money after bad. Unless of course NBC
    is even more incompetent than can be currently imagined, and people can imagine quite a bit. Sooner
    or later Comcast (after the legalities of the buyout
    from GE are settled with the government) will come
    in and clean house. Why would executives, knowing
    what is coming, put themselves in a worse light with
    their new employer when things are bad enough already?

    I wouldn’t count out Chuck just yet. I’ve seen most
    if not all of the new fall series promos. They don’t
    look too good except possibly “The Event” which may
    or may not catch on. One reason Chuck was renewed
    depite poor network competitive ratings, it did well
    against other NBC shows which isn’t saying much, but
    NBC has to build around something. The network couldn’t just cancel everything and start completely
    over. If the new shows bomb, all Chuck has to do is
    get decent, minimal ratings, say a 2.3 or 2.4. The
    show did get an increase of 22% last year in DVR viewing within 1 week of episode airing. NBC did
    make money on the show. If Chuck can get 19 or 22
    episodes this year, a 5th season would send the show into syndication. WB would certainly offer NBC
    a very good deal if things reach that point. If worse would come to worse and cancellation would
    occur there’s at least a good possibility another
    network would pick the show up for another year, especially with syndication being so close. Remember
    what happpened to “Jag”. NBC cancelled after one year. Another network picked it up and the show ran for 7 more years. Lastly NBC has always treated Chuck like a network stepchild not really knowing
    what to do with it. Perhaps another network could
    do a better job or Comcast could move it to cable
    and find a niche, paying audience for the show.

    Of course the producers have to put out a much better show this year than last year and NBC has to
    do its part in promoting it. The viewers also have to do their part and at least give the show a fair,
    fighting chance for survival by at the very least
    watching the first few episodes, or maybe more than a few before deciding. But if the towel is thrown in
    now, even before the episodes air, because of excessive negativity and defeatism, the show will
    will certainly have little chance of survival.

    As I said before, let’s do everything we can to save
    the patient before signing the death certicate or to
    quote an old saying ” It ain’t over till the fat lady sings ” as they say in baseball.

    Certainly there is much to critical about Season 3
    as far as the producers and NBC are concerned. Both
    did a poor job with the show last year and if things had been handled differently the show would not be on the bubble again, even before the new season begins. But that’s in the past and is now history. It can’t be changed.

    It is now time to begin anew. Good luck to the show,
    the cast, and to all of the people behind the scenes
    who make the show work. Let’s do our best to give
    Chuck at least a fighting chance to survive.

    I don’t usually give peptalks but I’ve done my best.
    If others have any ideas on this the time to hear
    them is now, not later, thanks.

    • atcdave says:

      I don’t think anyone is giving up on Chuck yet. Further episodes are a long shot, but Chuck has managed long shots before. And you are exactly right about the advantages of being on NBC. With Chuck currently functioning with a lower budget it even makes cable options more appealing. Many shows have survived a long time after changing networks, although often with changes. I don’t know how the contracts are structured, but it would seem changing carriers allows for re-writing of some contracts. Hard to say how such a thing would affect Chuck, my guess would be if it went to cable (USA?), they’d have to eliminate several minor characters. But I agree NBC is not the only option.
      We do need ratings this year. We’ve already discussed the stunt casting. I don’t know how effective it really is, we can only hope for the best there. You know I also believe a well publicized prime-time wedding would also be an excellent draw. Especially since ALL the viewers I know who gave up last year, expressed unhappiness with the failure of the central relationship. Making a big deal out of Chuck and Sarah getting married would likely win back a number of those disaffected viewers.
      Obviously we all have responsibilities too. We should be talking up the show to anyone who might like it. Make anyone who’s willing to sit still for 43 minutes watch an episode (or two); I’ve had great success with Tango, First Date, Cougars, and Best Friend (know your audience, choose one to their interests!).

  25. Robert H says:

    Hey Joe, great to hear from you again. Looking forward to your next article. You can be sure that
    I’ll give the Season 3 DVD a close look and we can compare notes. I’ll certainly let you know, thanks.

  26. Robert H says:

    Well said atcdave, well said. You make some excellent points and despite my reservations about
    a wedding this year, if that is what it takes to save the show, then so be it. A wedding would be an
    excellent viewer draw.

    My own personal preference would be a wedding at the
    end of the series but if Jason is right then things
    may well play out along the lines in his comments
    which I think are right on the money if the ratings
    don’t recover. I guess we’ll just have to just wait
    and see. Probably the first 6 or 7 episodes will
    tell the story. If the ratings don’t improve signifcantly and no backorder is given that will probably be it. If that happens regretably, then I
    think Jason’s scenario would work for me. At least
    some loose ends could be tied up and we would get to see what was inevitable from their (Chuck/Sarah)
    beginning-A WEDDING.

    However I’m still hoping for the best this year. Nothing to do now except wait and see….

    • jason says:

      robert – to be clear, my comments were only made in an attempt to figure out a potential story line, which was sort of the theme of this particular thread

      I agree with not giving up, but I think trying to used NBC POV toi figure out the plot line has nothing to do with giving up.

      You asked why would they give chuck 13 more eps? The reason would be to try to convert chuck fans to undercovers and the event – chuck may not have high demo numbers, but if even 25% of chuck fans decided to give each show a try cause chuck got a victory lap season 4, that probably is about as good of advertising as NBC could do – wouldn’t you agree. Plus chuck has sort of proven to produce a stable demo number in a very difficult time slot.

      My hope is the event is a huge hit and helps chuck get a suitable viewership number. Either way, I as a fan, appreciated NBC’s renewal, so they got at least one fan willing to try the event and undercovers.

  27. Eli says:

    I don’t have a problem with an early marriage (even if I think Chuck and Sarah must talk a lot before taking that step, because they still have serious issues), I do have a problem with the fact that even if marriage is NOT boring in any way, it’s tricky to write and a lot of writers (especially the young ones) don’t know how to do it.

    But anyway, I have one silly question. Can Sarah marry? I mean, as Sarah Walker. Does she exists as a person? Because Sam exists. Would she have to marry as Sam and not as Sarah? Although Sarah really exists as a person, doesn’t she? That’s her name in the CIA records, that’s her identity to the company (thanks to Graham, I guess.)

    It’s a stupid question, I know, but somewhat it intrigues me.

    • atcdave says:

      I do agree Eli that writing an interesting wedding could be a challenge; of they wrote two of the best TV weddings ever for The Ring, so I’m pretty optimistic about what they can do.

      That is an interesting point about Sarah. My first guess would be since Graham gave her the name it may be a sort of uber-alias, like maybe even her legal name at this point. Even if it isn’t, it shouldn’t be that big a deal (at least to Chuck) to either get married under her real/legal name or even change her legal name to Sarah Lisa Walker (first choice, I would think).

    • thinkling says:

      Why is that do you think … that writers have trouble writing good marriage stuff?

      As to the name on the marriage license … I rolled that around in my head some, too. But if the CIA wants her to exist as Sarah Walker, I suppose she has all the official documentation necessary. But you sometimes need parents’ names, too. So, in real life, it might be an issue, but not in the Chuckverse.

      • atcdave says:

        That’s simple Thinkling, very few real weddings include gun and knife fights; but for a Chuck wedding I think its required! (or maybe a limo car chase!)

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Most couples do however need to come to a decision about the weapons cache.

      • thinkling says:

        @Dave: Maybe I misunderstood the line of thought. I was thinking more about the day-to-day that they might have trouble with. I have no doubt they could do a bang-up job of the wedding.

      • thinkling says:

        That’s great Ernie. Sarah the bridesmaid didn’t pack heat. What about Sarah the bride? Knives strapped to usual places? Kevlar bodice? gun in the bouquet? And don’t forget the poisoned hair thingies.

      • joe says:

        (Sigh) She did always look great in the poison hair thingies, didn’t she?

      • thinkling says:

        @Joe: I miss those. Did she only have two?

      • joe says:

        Thinking further down the road, re: Ernie’s comment above, what do we ever get Casey for his eventual marriage?

        We’d have to “buy American”, I assume. So is it Colt, or Smith & Wesson? I assume something in a small caliber for his bride, but is a handgun appropriate for the groom? Maybe we should be thinking in terms of an RPG for Casey.

        Well, I’m thinking too far ahead, obviously.

      • thinkling says:

        @Joe: They’d probably be the only couple registered at Guns & Ammo.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Well casey is probably not in favor of registration … Oh, wait, you mean like a wedding pattern…

      • joe says:

        And that seems so appropriate, Thinkling! 😉

      • herder says:

        Depends on who Casey is with, if it is someone like Agent Forrest then yeah, they’d be registered at Guns & Ammo and Soldier of Fortune. If it is Alex’s mom (Katherine?) then it’s Bed Bath and Beyond or Pottery Barn.

      • thinkling says:

        @Herder – Speaking of Kathleen. Wonder if they’re ever going to do anything with her. Alex knows who Casey is and all the spy stuff. So is mom just left out of everything? Wonder if she’s still on the couch where we left her.

      • atcdave says:

        Yeah Thinkling, they may have problems writing a marriage, but I predict great things for a wedding!

      • thinkling says:

        @Dave – They’ve don e such a good job of weaving Buymore stuff and family stuff into the main spy stuff, I think it could be really good. They did pretty well I think in the back 6, with the domestic scenes: washing dishes vs. gun play for dealing with stress; where to keep your weapons cache; the spy wills; boring TV and nightmares; midnight fridge-raids. It’s not rocket science and with them being a spy couple there’s all the more fun stuff to deal with.

      • thinkling says:

        And they all do turn on a dime comedy / drama. How could it not be great?

      • atcdave says:

        Well, my concern with a marriage is mainly about Chuck lying to Sarah. Since Chuck is supposed to be the sort of everyman character we all relate to (well, all nerds relate to anyway!), I think it damages the character and the show to have him acting in ways so many of us can neither respect nor relate to.
        I do agree they have captured so much of the drama and relationship well, and I love moments like Chuck doing dishes while Sarah deals with stress her own way. Okay, no secret here, I love Chuck and Sarah together. But I do have concerns about how it will be written next season. I’m mostly optimistic, just have a few nagging doubts…

      • thinkling says:

        Yeah, me too. Nobody likes the lying. They made such a big deal over him being the same Chuck, and then in that regard he’s totally different. All fans are screaming for it to stop. I know they like to add drama (read angst a lot of the time) in the CS relationship, but when they damage their relationship too much or keep them apart (either emotionally or spy/mission wise), they really cripple the strongest element of the show. Fixing the lying is a good place to start. I really must put my paranoia aside.

  28. rac2873 says:

    I am shocked at the lack of promotion on NBC. There has not been a single promo on TV for Chuck.

    This leads me to believe that NBC has made one of two decisions.

    1. Promoting does not work for Chuck and the fan bases is the fan base with little oppertunity for growth.
    2. NBC is just riding out the wave until the mid season and will replace Chuck with the Cape. Regardless of how Chuck does it was always a place holder.

    I am not sure I like either option.

    • joe says:

      I saw a promo for Chuck just yesterday during America’s Got Talent, Rac. It was Chuck and Morgan, with Chuck flashing on what The Event might be.

      That’s about right. Promos for established shows starting at the end of the month should be starting on Labor Day here in the US; that’s more or less the usual. We can do a lot of thinking and guessing about what it means that NBC is using Chuck to promote and anchor the rest of the evening. Whatever the rational, it serves their purpose.

      I’ve been amused to see Zac Levi used pretty extensively on Comcast’s XFinity campaign, especially since Comcast is in the process of buying NBC-U. And yesterday for the first time I saw Ryan McPartlin in a commercial too. Sorry! I don’t remember what he was pitching, but it was fun to watch.

      Anyway, I can agree with others who’ve been saying that it’s been too early before now to say NBC is or isn’t promoting the show properly. We’ll be seeing their attempts (or lack thereof) starting about now, it seems.

  29. Eli says:

    I know it’s not a big deal in the Chuckverse, I was just curious. I think Sarah should marry as Sarah, because that’s her name to Chuck, the woman he knows, but I wasn’t sure if that was possible.

    @thinkling I think writers aren’t good writing marriages because they are complicated to write in an entertaining way, if we understand entertaining in “for a TV show” way. Usually shows drag out the “will they/won’t they” because romance is much easier to write. It’s like angst, a lot of writers overuse it (although people tend to call angst what it isn’t, but that’s another issue) because it’s a very easy way to create conflict. Without conflict there isn’t a story. The pursuing of a relationship is easier to write and to make entertaining than the fulfillment and the developing of said relationship.

    And of course, the younger you are, the more unexperienced you are to write about human relationships.

    Marriage is made no of big gestures and conflicts, but of little ones (that yes, if accumulated they can end up in cataclysmic consequences, but even then you begin with little things.) And also, they’re full of questions that could lead your characters to situations or outcomes that people might not like: where do we see ourselves in 5, 10, 20 years? Where do we live? How do we live? How we combine our careers? If one of us must go to another city or even another country, what happens with us, how do we do it? Will we have children? If we do, how do we take care of them? What education do we give them? Etc, etc, etc…

    Even if we admit that Sarah would keep being a field agent after marriage and even after, say, the first child, there is going to come a time when she would have to stop being a field agent and ask for a desktop post because being an active agent is very dangerous and she could get seriously injured or worse.

    So, you see, it is interesting, but you must know how to write it in a way that could make interesting 45 minutes episodes.

    • thinkling says:

      Great insights. I think you’re right. The wt/wt and romantic pursuit are so common, they just write a new variation. But with Chuck and Sarah, they would be the same great couple in their jobs and missions: still Casey groaning/growling at them; still a great team; C/S approaching things from their different areas of gifting. Then the Bartowski home front can parallel the themes like the Buymore always did. There’s comedy, relationship growth, conflict resolution, and the little wonderful moments we love to see. Throw in the passion and I don’t see how it could go wrong. Oh yeah, and there’s Morgan in the mix …would he still live with them? Ha! They could do shows for a long time in my mind.

    • JC says:

      But there’s no need for the issues dealing with marriage or dating to take up the entire episode or the season. This is a show about spies that’s where the majority of the conflict should come from. Being spies is enough to keep the show interesting, there’s no need for over the top relationship drama.

    • joe says:

      On the name thing, Eli, I really like your idea, for Sarah to legally change her name. I don’t know what the fan reaction would be, but for me, that seems to a very Sarah way of handling things. It feels in keeping with what we’ve seen.

  30. Robert H says:

    Jason I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure we reach the same conclusions. The logic makes
    sense in a narrow way but I am not sure this would be accepted if people got the idea Chuck was only
    renewed as a lure for Undercovers and The Event and
    as cannonfodder on the schedule to be replaced at
    midseason, possibly with The Cape as mentioned above
    in a previous comment.

    If this is true (and I’m not saying it is) the strategy would probably boomerang and infuriate the
    very audience NBC might be trying to lure into watching more of the shows on the network. It would
    probably rank with the Conan O’brien/Jay Leno fiasco
    just as Comcast is on the verge of taking over the network. The last thing current network executives
    need right now (unless this is a ComCast idea) is
    another public relations disaster.

    I am curious about one thing however. What if the new shows bomb like they did last year? Where would
    that leave Chuck, in limbo again, cancelled along
    with rest of the losers, extended with a back 6 or 9
    episodes, or possibly renewed again because NBC really has nothing to replace it with and the show
    is nearing syndication status? I honestly just don’t
    know and would appreciate some input on this.

    It still bothers me about what I see in a lot of the
    comments as a subtle acceptance of the show’s cancellation even before any episodes have aired.
    I don’t know, maybe it’s just me but that’s what I’m
    picking up in the vibes and I just don’t like it.

    If the show gets cancelled because the ratings don’t
    recover after the episodes have aired, that’s one
    thing. To subtley accept the premise the show is going to be cancelled, no matter what, even before
    the episodes air or have the network give a minimal
    renewal simply to use the show as a lure or cannonfodder with the expectation of cancelling anyway is quite another. I would sooner have had the
    show cancelled last year than use loyal fans like
    this just as the show’s producers did last year to
    further their own agenda at the expense of viewer loyalty, especially after so much effort was made by
    fans to save the show at the end of Season 2.

    Maybe I’m being hypersensitive here and it’s way too
    early to even speculate how things will go. Events
    will determine, in large part what will happen going
    forward and we have no idea what they will be.
    Nevertheless, the more I read and the vibes I’m
    picking up the less I like it. Nothing can be done
    about it,however, and that’s what’s frustrating.

  31. herder says:

    Sort of late to this but in honor of the fact that the season starts in ten days I’ve got ten questions for this year.

    1. How does Chuck get back into the spy game/how does team Bartowski reunite.

    My guess is based on the bit from this summer when Chuck comes upon Sarah and Casey tied up. If they both came to the same place from different starting points then they must be on a trail that converges. I think that they decide to work together for a “limited purpose” such as until they find Mama B and whatever the CIA is looking for. The CIA doesn’t realize the extent of Chuck’s resources and Chuck doesn’t understand why the government is looking for what ever it is looking for. A temporary arrangement can easily become permenant.

    2. Is Mama B good or evil.

    Too early to tell, considering we have nothing to go on, but maybe good, turned evil that can be turned back by her son (parallels to Darth Vader anyone).

    3. Governor/reboot, are these complimentary or contradictory.

    The governor idea was interesting and seemed to adress the physical symptoms that Papa B showed while flashing in the Ring. But if the intersect prototype (?) that was installed in Chuck as a child can reboot the main intersect in his head is a governor necessary.

    4. Fallout from the Ring’s abortive takeover/future of the intersect program.

    It seems that Chuck stopping the Ring from taking over the US intelligence services might give Beckman some extra pull with the government, presumably someone owes her one. After all, she was right about both Chuck and (in the end) Shaw. What does this do to the intersect program, is it ended, do they continue with other candidates, do they try to recruit Chuck, are they appalled what Shaw has done and become, blaming it on the intersect.

    They have a working system to download the intersect, the Ring’s one, but they don’t have a governor. Do they try to get Chuck’s to copy or does the intersect machine get filed in that warehouse that has the lost Ark.

    5. What use is made of the Orion Cave (OC).

    Is it Chuck’s private lair, do Chuck and Sarah move in above it and it becomes their lair. Does Morgan know about it, especially before Sarah. Or does it become an annex to the Castle.

    6. Living arrangements

    If Chuck and Sarah are together, then at some point Morgan is going to have to move out, does he move in with Casey, on his own or with someone else. Is he just waiting until another apartment in Echo Park opens up or does he want one in the courtyard just like every one else. How does Morgan’s living arrangements affect the Casey/Alex relationship.

    7. Baby Awesome

    How does the pregnancy of Ellie affect the Bartowski family dynamics. Does it bring the Woodcombs and the Charleses closer together or push them further apart.

    8. Passing notions

    Several things have been brought up in the show then passed on; Omaha, sisters, Chuck’s chart, bracelets, necklaces, earings, rings and now neurology. Which of these will reappear and which will be forgotten. My guess is that several pieces of jewelry will figure prominently, the others not so much.

    9. Whose life expectancy light is switched on to red?

    Graham, Bryce, Roark, Millbarge, Papa B every year major characters have been killed off. I see no reason why this year should be any different. Whose aura has turned dark this year, Big Mike? Awesome, Mama B.

    10. Is there going to be an engagement for Chuck and Sarah

    Yes, but not before a bunch of fake outs.

    • atcdave says:

      Some really excellent questions Herder. Obviously I know nothing (and I’m sure many folks will agree with that!), but am happy to make a couple wild guesses.

      MamaB will clearly be a good guy by seasons end. Whether she has been captured by baddies, or needs to be redeemed like Darth Vador I can’t say. I would also take no bets on her surviving the season.

      My bet is they completely ignore fallout from the attempted government takeover. I would logically think Beckman’s credibility would be pretty high right now; but I bet its never discussed.

      I don’t see Morgan ever moving out. He’s Chuck’s “Alfred” you know. Maybe if Morgan gets married later he and Alex will get their own place or something; but I’m betting the bearded gnome will always have a room at the Bartowski place.

      Of all the dangling clues from seasons past, I’m thinking the two bracelets are the only ones likely to recur. I’d still love to see MEB recognize Sarah through the charm bracelet; but I’m currently thinking its more likely they will know each other through some past association. I don’t want it to be that way, I think there’s too many questions about “Why didn’t Sarah say something when…”; but it just seems so Chuck-like at this point. I’m thinking they’ve met, or know each other by reputation of other aliases, something like that.

      I’d bet money on an engagement. I’d even bet marriage if you give me good odds….

      • thinkling says:

        No claim to know anything. Shooting in the dark, just for fun:

        Mama B is good, but it won’t be obvious. She’s in a position that she has to walk the fence to protect her family.

        I also think most of s3 will be swept under the rug. The Ring is gone and we’re on to some other threat. I could be wrong, but I expect the Bartowski family threat will cross with CIA national threat and team B will be playing for double stakes.

        Chuck’s chart. I’m dying for Chuck to tell Sarah about his search for his mom and for her to say, “Well, I guess we need another Tron poster.” But I don’t think it will happen. The earrings are gone. Neurology could play in nicely, but probably won’t. I do think the necklaces will be referenced. I like a combo of the recognition of Sarah and MEB. I think Sarah may have crossed paths, but didn’t have any idea who she was … until the necklace/bracelet registers. I think MEB likely knows that Chuck is with a CIA agent. Maybe she won’t know who, either, until the bracelet. (Or maybe that’s all too obvious, and they’ll do something completely different.)

        I kind of agree that Morgan is part of the Bartowski family. C/S might move to the old home place. But it may be logistically difficult with Castle/Buymore/Courtyard proximity.

        Hoping for engagement/wedding and married CS for season 5

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