Protection Rackets

The first paying job I ever had, the first where I had to get “permit papers” and have taxes deducted from my pay-check, was at age 14, stocking shelves and waiting on customers in a small-town pharmacy. I knew the owner pretty well. Nice guy. He liked to play catch with his kids, mowed the lawn on the weekends, liked music and generally was pretty easy going. But as a boss he could be a touch dictatorial. Demanding and strict was a nice way to put it. If the shelves or the goods were dusty, I knew I was in for an afternoon of drudgery. Of course, the shelves had to be stock (constantly!) – you can’t sell what isn’t there. Plus, it better be displayed nicely (or else). And heaven help me if a customer needed some attention for more than an appropriate interval. Really, it seemed like my work was constantly being scrutinized and judged to see if it was good enough.

Back in those days we had to count out change, and isn’t that a lost skill! Yes, I slipped up and had to face the wrath of a customer I had inadvertently short-changed. He got more than a little “surly”, I recall. Far from standing up for me, the owner made sure that I “made it right”; It was a rather painful lesson in customer relations. You’d think a 14 year old boy would be protected a little from such anger, but nooooo!

Oh yeah. The boss? He was my dad. And that store put food on our table, so yes, there was a bit on the line.

Much like Mary Elizabeth, he had to be a bit different “on the job”. In fact, I couldn’t help but think that I was having two different relationships with two different people.

It was very confusing, at first. Like everyone else, I found Mary Elizabeth Bartowski confusing, too.

Count her double-crosses in Chuck vs. The First Fight. Frost worked for the CIA, then double-crossed them by going over to Alexie Volkoff. That’s a fact. However, she may have double crossed him, not by working for MI-6 (she only double crossed Chuck and Sarah by telling them that), but by killing Marco. That too is a fact.

One of two things must be true. Frost has either been trying to save her family all along or has turned against Volkoff for yet another reason of which we have no knowledge. But there’s no denying that she’s turned against Volkoff. She apparently had to double cross Chuck and Ellie and Sarah to once again appear to be on Volkoff’s side. That is, she she had to unless she really turned traitor, and really set up Chuck and Sarah. Frost is a master of deception, after all.

But then, giving Sarah the means of their escape is either double-crossing Volkoff a second time (and triple-crossing the CIA, while really being on their side) or quadruple-crossing the CIA by really going with Volkoff, depending on how you count. Of course, she could be setting up Volkoff for the ol’ inverted back-flip double-or-nothing-cross… Sheesh!

Let’s start again and make this simpler. Mama loves her children, and would do almost anything to keep them un-involved and protect them, just like Stephen. Chuck may not understand why she’s acting the way she is, but my experience tells me that he understands she has her reasons.

Agent Frost knows everything about Charles Carmichael, which means she also knows keeping them un-involved is not possible. When on the job, Agent Frost is dealing with accomplished spy Charles Carmichael, the guy who took care of 10 of Volkoff’s men single handedly. The one that Vincent had heard about. He’s got quite a reputation, you see, and he’s not at all like the little boy she left twenty years ago. With Carmichael she can be terse and professional. Cold, even. In her judgement, a judgement informed by many years as a spy, her deceptions are the best way to handle the situation, whether or not she has turned, or not. Like my dad, Mama B. is quite capable of shooting Chuck in the chest after carefully verifying that he’s wearing a vest.

It sort of reminds me of Agent Walker shooting someone named Jack Burton in the shoulder, too.

Frost has been all about evaluating people – Stephen, Volkoff, Chuck, Ellie. Frost made her judgement about Sarah. Actually, she’s made several. We saw Agent Frost size up Agent Walker in Griffin Park. The verdict? Formidable, perhaps dangerous. But she had to wonder about the relationship her son had with “that woman.” Mary Elizabeth even attempted to intervene in the argument that Chuck and Sarah were having! Kids, kids! You need to stop this now!

Frost watched her son and his girlfriend work together flawlessly in unison in the bank. She saw both fights going on, and noticed that only one of them was at all difficult for the couple. Mama B. made a final judgement about Sarah, and we knew what it was the moment she whispered Protect him. to the girl. It wasn’t at all about Sarah’s prowess as a fighter, or about her skills as a spy. When Sarah decided to believe in Chuck even when she thought he was wrong, Mary Elizabeth decided to believe in Sarah.

It was never a question about protection. Morgan said early on that he and Ellie knew Sarah “…was only trying to protect” Chuck, and protecting someone when you can isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But it’s only part of a bigger picture. When Mary Elizabeth whispered to her, she was saying Welcome to the family, Sarah. Right or wrong, we all believe in each other.

– joe


About joe

In my life I've been a professor, martial artist, rock 'n roller, rocket scientist, lover, poet and brain surgeon. I'm lying about the brain surgery.
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207 Responses to Protection Rackets

  1. Karen says:

    Insightful post Joe! I’ve noticed there’s a lot of “bipolarism” (metaphorically only of course) on the show this season, and the actors are doing a GREAT job of portraying all the facets of their characters. I continue to be amazed at the talent this show attracts.

    • joe says:

      Hi, Karen! Good to see you here.

      Yeah – the dual nature of most of these characters, and how they resolve those natures, has been a recurring theme. I think that idea made Sarah’s actions in S3 more acceptable to me than for most – they didn’t seem so out of character when I kept thinking about the tension between each facet.

      There comes a point when it’s too much, but for me so far, it’s only made them more 3-dimensional in a way that I don’t see in most other shows.

      Gee! Even the (great) characters in House seem flat by comparison. Gregory House has precisely one side to his character – surly! Well, mostly. Sort of. 😉

  2. DignityRLI says:

    Joe, some of the dust on those shelves is swirling about… something in my eye;)
    And that is why I watch this show. It’s about the characters… “Protect Him” or ‘I trust you with all that I have that I have left of me….’

    • joe says:

      Hi, Dignity! Jan gave you a shout-out last night. I hope you have a chance to hear it!

      • DignityRLI says:

        Much appreciated. My comment to happydayz3 was that we don’t all watch the same show. I watch for Sarah’s Journey. Others the ‘spy story,’ comedy, Chuck’s adventure, Ryan’s abs, bikini’s, music, romance, 80’s references, drama, what have you.

        I enjoy the equal time afforded each with courtesy here.

        And that is what makes this an Amazing television show with an equally amazing fan base. Broad appeal that feels personal. Cheers.

  3. amyabn says:

    Great stuff Joe! I really like the ladies sizing up one another. Both have proven that they are excellent judges of character-Mary trusting Sarah, Sarah trusting Chuck. I like the look Sarah gave Mary as she was tied up-she had the realization that they had been tricked but I saw a glimmer of recognition that Sarah understood what Mary had to do. All of that unspoken communication as Mary prepares to leave, entrusting her son’s life to Sarah, and as Chuck starts questioning his blind spot as it relates to his mom.
    Is it Monday yet???

    • thinkling says:

      Please, let it be Monday!!

    • joe says:

      And there’s more, too! Apropos of Thinkling’s Layers, Chuck has been robbed of his Intersect by Frost (he thinks). If I’m reading the promos and spoilers right, Chuck has to decide if he believes in himself, too. It looks to me that when Mary said her final words to Sarah, she knew what she had done and how Chuck was going to react, and Sarah seemed to understand that.

      This is going to be good!

      • thinkling says:

        Good call, Joe! My bet is Sarah will help him believe in himself on several layers.

        It sure is going to be good.

        Is it Monday yet? (I feel like a cell phone commercial)

      • joe says:

        I feel like Bart Simpson in the car…

        “Are we there yet?
        Are we there yet?
        Are we there yet?”


  4. thinkling says:

    Love it, Joe. MEB’s final words to Sarah were definitely a matriarchal blessing and one with several layers. (Most mothers of sons have a much less complicated list.) I believe you dug down to one of the layers I hadn’t yet thought about in quite those words (and believe me I gave some serious thought to the layers ;)).

    I don’t think Sarah’s final believing in Chuck would have been enough by itself, but it was the last layer to fall into place.

    Sarah’s competency as a spy was a prerequisite. Her willingness to do anything to protect Chuck, including arresting his mother, a necessary quality for Chuck’s partner. MEB had to admire the arrest on some level (especially after hearing Sarah’s reasoning), even though it threw a monkey wrench into her plan. Even her fighting skills and how well she and Chuck worked together entered into the mix.

    All this is well and good, yet something more is needed. It is that layer of trust, faith in Chuck … believing in him even when she thinks he is wrong. And for the record, I don’t think that means blindly following Chuck over any ol’ cliff. It does mean being willing to defer to his instincts, especially when they are so visceral.

    So, this is the final layer that completes their partnership, both the professional and personal. It’s what makes it whole and powerful. It’s the glue that will hold all the other layers together when the world threatens to tear them apart.

    • joe says:

      Chuck told Ellie that she’s left him in good hands – Sarah’s. I think Mama B. reached that same conclusion! She knows Chuck is going to be okay now.

      It really is more complicated with daughters, isn’t it? With Ellie, Mary Elizabeth has to be much more careful, much more aware of the emotional nuances. But the way she guided Ellie to the red Mustang (with custom blue leather seats!) was no less professional.

      Heh! PDA is nice to see from our couple. But you know, this emotional level is where I live. 😉

      • Amrit says:

        It is not that everything written is not totally correct, but at some point do we not have to reserve judgement until we definatively find out whether or not mama b is good or bad. We as an audience want her to be good because we love team b, ellie and chuck wants that. But a question has to be asked, since papa b is gone, is mama b simply setting up ellie and chuck to take over his work and help her continue the life that she already leads. I mean what does she really want from her kids, is it an emotional relationship where she will be around for vacations and they share family meals or is it so that they can be there to provide her with information and resources while she lives a life undercover? Is she using her children? I know it is an unpopular trail of thought especially on a feel good show like chuck, but what if mama b being the master of deception played ellie, she faked the emotions just so she could get her to go to orions car where mama b knew vital information was, she already played chuck? It is so interesting we as an audience take a scene lie the ellie and mama b conversation and take it as a mother – daughter moment, maybe it is because we have never seen a character quite like mama b before. Shaw was inept, the ring and fulcrum never got it together enough, but mama b is a formidable foe, where does this all end up? I sure hope that some of what mama b was genuine and she wants more from her kids then information and resources, but it is too difficult to tell right now!

      • Amrit says:

        I mean papa b gave up 20 years of his life to help her, he never re-married, never got a girlfriend, he was there for her until he died. I mean what if mama b wanted to try the family life and realised one day that she could not do it she wanted the spy life more then anything, now where does that leave chuck and ellie. Now you may say that is way too heartless, but even shaw when he wanted to kill sarah the first time, said to chuck please stay out of this I do not want to hurt you, it is not your fault and shaw was crazy at this point. Mama b’s protection maybe just that it is not chuck and ellies fault that they were born and are getting in the way of her doing her work, she may have those reasons for not wanting to be there for them. Maybe being a mom is not in her dna, being a spy and killer is. As an audience we so desperatly want her to be the good guy, but who knows?

      • joe says:

        That’s good advice, Amrit – reserve judgement for now. We’re supposed to be uncertain about MamaB’s nature right now, and really, it’s good that we are, at least, from a story-telling point of view.

        I mean, it got me over this two week hump!

      • Amrit says:

        If it does end up being like I said above, this would be a great learning experience for chuck and sarah. They will realise that no matter how much spying is in both their blood, they will not be willing to sacrifice each other and their familly for the greater good. Mama b shows them just where this life ends up, alone and living a life that is morally corrupt.

      • Amrit says:

        I do apologise if my so called devils advocate point of view upsets a few people, but it does fit into my theory that all roads lead to chuck becoming the worlds saviour! This is what we know, papa b created the intersect to help people, help the world. We know that chuck is the only person alive who can handle the intersect and what it means, we all know that chuck uploaded the first intersect as a child. We know that mama b is not a typical bartowski from what she did to marco, bartowski’s do not do that, I mean chuck is not a killer, ellie is a dr who swore an oath to do no harm. Is mama b the final push to get chuck to face his destiny, as she said your father never wanted you to see this, and maybe that is it, he never wanted chuck to lead the life they did, he made sure bryce kept him out of the spy world, all roads lead to an epic final destination!

      • jason says:

        @amrit – I think u may be on to something with mama B being bad – I often am accused of wanting a boring show with CS being a functional team and ALWAYS getting along and being together, but what could be more boring than mama b showing up in episode 10 and saying thx for letting me trick you, I am home for good, and I am a good guy, can I be on team B? I think we are in for several more twists and turns on the mama B highway b4 the end game is fully revealed.

      • Amrit says:

        I do not know if mama b is bad, it simply could be that as much as orion was a father and scientist, mama b is spy and killer. Where orion tried to keep his family safe, mama b could push them further into that life. Does that make her a bad person or simply a bad mom?

      • JC says:

        Mama B seems like a pragmatist to me. The spy world is her life and her family’s by association. She tried to protect them but that failed. So now instead of trying to keep them sheltered she’s giving them the tools and directions to survive.

      • thinkling says:

        That [MEB being bad or choosing the spy life] is totally in the realm of possibility. I can’t deny it, and I may have to eat my words and choke on my warm feelings. But I still think MamaB will turn out to be good.

        Realistically it would be difficult for her to re-assimilate into the real world, but if that’s what she wants she has a family to forgive and help … and an excellent model in Sarah. Sarah has gone through, to a lesser degree, the transition into a real life from the spy world. She was the spy Mary is, not to the extreme, but they have much in common. MEB, what she used to be, what she gave up, is kind of where Sarah is headed. I love the dynamics of the Bartowski women, especially the two spies.

        Here are some of the reasons I believe MEB will be one of the good guys.

        I suspect that MEB has not had much opportunity to emote for the benefit of an audience. Just the opposite. She has had to learn to ignore her emotions. Spies do not have feelings. Feelings get you killed. She had to learn to bury them in a place deep inside. Sound familiar?

        For this reason, I tend to believe the mom stuff and the emotion with Ellie. Her speech in the car about reliving the day, and if she had it to do over again she never would have left, and that she’d still be with her family. I believe that, because then she slips back into spy mode. “But that’s all in the past. So come on.” But if that’s true, the opportunity to end the mission and rejoin her family is something she may now dare to hope for.

        The other reasons I tend to believe her emotion are the teddy bear and the visit with Ellie. There was no spy reason to buy the bear and meet with Ellie at the restaurant. In fact it was crazy. It got her captured threatened her mission.

        Her visit with Ellie was effused with real emotion, something foreign to her world of cold-blooded brutality and survival of the cruelest. And the piece of dialog that convinced me was “watching you sleep … was one of my favorite things.” It is a simple, universal mother pleasure, a small, tender one, not one that would lodge itself in the heart of an impostor, and not one I would use if I were trying to sell a lie. I would come up with something bigger. And I doubt a non-mother would think of it at all. It didn’t particularly move Ellie. Just give her 6 months.

        That’s my reasoning. She tells Chuck and Sarah that she is trying to protect her children. All her actions to date back that up. But besides the concrete actions, we have seen what I think is a compelling demonstration of a mother’s love and emotion that never died, but was just buried really deep, to keep them all from getting killed. Now does MEB hope to end her mission and come home. I think it’s more than possible.

      • thinkling says:

        @Joe: I love the emotional level, too. Without it the PDA is as hollow as a bullet casing and about as exciting.

      • alladinsgenie4u says:

        @thinkling – So, here’s hoping for more E-PDA ( Emotional not Electronic)

      • atcdave says:

        I’ll shock everyone by saying I see things along the same line as Thinkling.

        They have provided us no way of knowing yet; its possible MEB is a horrible villain who just can’t quite come to kill her own son. Its also possible she’s a spy/killer/adrenaline junkie all the way through and will never leave the life. And not knowing keeps it all exciting. But I strongly suspect she will be very happy to escape Volkoff and have something almost normal with her kids. Going back to her bedtime story for Chuck; I don’t want to read too much into it, but it seems she sees returning and living happily ever after with her kids as her desire.

        Is it Monday yet?

      • Amrit says:

        As i say again how do we not know that she puposly got captured by sarah and the cia. She came to burbank to destroy orions vault, that much is clear, since she said she shot chuck to keep charles carmichael dead, yet the very next episode she sends him right into his hands, so where does the truth start and where does it end. How do we not know that the good Dr with the gas was not part of a small operation to gain chuck’s trust? here is the ultimate question where does the mission end, once we know where the mission is going and what her ultimate goals are we can never know if everything is a truth or everything even her conversation with ellie is a lie. We have never seen a character like mama b before on chuck and so the hope that she is good cannot be applied even as much as we want ellie and chuck to feel good, it is too soon.

      • thinkling says:

        I don’t base this spec on my hope that MEB is good, although I do hope that. I base it on what we’ve seen and what we know and look for the best explanation.

        1. Arranging her capture, the way it went down, assumes an omniscience or clairvoyance not usually attributed to humans. She was ready to walk away at the docks, until Chuck told her Ellie was pregnant. No way could she have predicted any of that or any of what came later. The side trip to the toy store, the bear, the dinner … none of that was necessary to any sort of spy plot. She could not have guaranteed capture or what happens after. Too foolish.

        2. She didn’t come to Burbank to destroy Orion’s base. She came to get the chemical weapon to the CIA and “kill” Carmichael. You can argue that that was a lie, but her actions back it up all the way. She was walking away at the docks. Mission over. And Wheelwright was way to crazy and unpredictable to use in the way you suggest.

        3. According to Volkoff, destroying Orion’s base was not necessary until a) Charles wouldn’t let it alone and b) Frost was captured. Had MEB visited Ellie, handed over the bear, and gone back under cover, all would have been well. Carmichael would have remained “dead;” Frost’s cover would have been in tact; and Volkoff would have been none-the-wiser. But “When you [Volkoff to Sarah] locked up Frost, it became clear I had to step in to find Orion’s little base here and destroy all his intelligence.”

        4. Occam’s Razor. Admittedly what you hypothesize is possible. But based on what we know and what we’ve seen, it’s a much smaller needle to thread. To go the MamaB is evil route, we have to assume that everything is a lie. But we actually know, factually that it is not all a lie. Her actions corroborate much of what she says. We have no reason to doubt her words to Chuck about the day she left, especially when they are buttressed by statements consistent with her actions. For her to come back into Ellie’s life and display the emotion she did, she is either genuine in her love for Ellie, or she is an absolute ice-water-in-her-veins, living-heart-donor monster. Based on what we’ve seen she isn’t a monster.

        Quite simply MEB = Good Guy fits the facts and explains things better, without having to make up things not in evidence. It is a reduction to the best explanation, even though she is a complex character and has lived a complicated life.

        Since it’s fiction, anything is possible, but for now I think the good-guy hypothesis is the best one.

      • Amrit says:

        Oh I did not hear that last line by volkoff! I live in england and so I have to watch these episodes online, sometimes the sound is not great. But that line from volkoff certainly throws half my theory out of the window! So mama b sent chuck to volkoff to get herself freed, but if she meant to kill charles carmichael in 4.06 so to throw volkoff off the trail, then why did volkoff not question her about it and say how come he is alive I thought you killed him. hum………

      • atcdave says:

        I noticed that Amrit about Carmichael’s return from the dead to Tuttle. Maybe MEB figured they’d have to “kill” him again to escape anyway, so no biggie! As Orion said, “I’ve had to fake my death many times…”

        MEB also likely realized when she was arrested, Chuck was going to pick at it anyway, she might as well put him to good use.

      • joe says:

        Amrit, I was thinking along the same lines as Dave. All Frost has to do is admit to Volkoff that Carmichael is a master spy and was not caught completely unaware.

        But there’s a good point to be made here. Either way, she’s put herself under suspicion – by Volkoff! He called her “The Master of Deception”, but that may have been for Frost’s benefit. She had to “kill” Charles make sure she was in Volkoff’s good graces, but so far, that character is always on the lookout for treachery. Even after 20 years, Frost would not assume she’s above suspicion.

      • thinkling says:

        @Amrit: I bailed on the post last night; I am so not a night owl. But you are 2 hrs later than I. How do you do it? (My son is in Greatham, btw.)

        My first watch is a slingbox type stream, and I miss a lot of dialogue, so I know what you mean.

        Regardless, the discussion and pondering are fascinating. I can’t wait to see these next episodes.

        Is it Monday yet?

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  6. kg says:

    Well done Joe.

    First Fight gave Mary a glimpse as to what Chuck sees in Sarah, well beyond her natural, surface beauty. Walker is special. Bartowski is special. Together they are magnanimous.

    To paraphrase Casey, “You’ve picked a good one Chuck…..finally.”

    • joe says:

      Ah, thanks, KG.
      Wouldn’t you have loved to hear Casey’s line from Stephen? I know I want to hear it from Mary too. But you know, it doesn’t have to be spoken. Somehow the idea came across from Orion anyway (somewhere about the time he said Does she have an Intersect too???) and I betcha the message will be made explicit from Mary to Chuck also.

      • Amrit says:

        well orion did say that in a way, by changing his mind and showing his lair he did that. What changed orions mind from chuck being in standford ready to be in the cia, to the time before he died in living dead, simply one very special agent sarah walker. I will help you become the man you want to be because you are my son! That is all the validation you want from a man like orion, he knows like us that sarah is as much his destiny as the spy world that awaited him in his lair!

      • kg says:

        Joe do you recall what Chuck’s answer was? “No Dad,” he said as his face lit up. “That’s all her…Hi honey.”

        And Steve knew that Chuck loved her completely and was reasonably sure Sarah’s affection for his son was genuine.

        It was his dad’s second plea to run in Subway, the one that included asking if Chuck truly did love Sarah, and if protecting her was paramount, then he had to run with him in order to accomplish that feat.

        And as we know, Chuck did decide to run and told Sarah, “I’ll always choose to protect you.”

  7. alladinsgenie4u says:

    Mama B’s request to Sarah to protect Chuck takes on a whole new meaning now that the Intersect is malfunctioning and Chuck expected to end up in the captivity of really bad guys (speculation). We know that Sarah will go the extra mile to protect her Chuck and now she will have the added burden of a mother’s expectations on her. Talk about carrying a heavy burden. She has to protect and save Chuck not only for her but for his family too.

    And in case you guys missed it, someone uploaded the sneak peek for 4×08 on youtube and it contains the Chuck/Riggle conversation previously cut off from Kristin’s sneak peek – Chuck 4×08 Sneak Peek

    • JC says:

      I really hope this stuff with Sarah is just a misdirect or assumptions made by the characters and the PSP is real reason for him flashing blanks. IMO that’s so much more of a compelling story than Chuck’s emotions towards Sarah causing problems.

      • alladinsgenie4u says:

        Agreed. If they dropped the PSP thing as the reason for not flashing, then I will be disappointed too.

      • thinkling says:

        Me, too Alladins. The PSP should be at the base of it all. All season long, he’s been flashing at will with no problem. It’s gotta be the PSP

      • luckygirl says:

        I think it may be something like them thinking of Sarah as a parachute of sorts for Chuck. Like he’s never truly scared he will die because she is there. I think they are just trying to kick start the intersect so they figure pushing him out of a metaphorical plane without a chute will fix whatever insticts that need to kick in for the intersect to work. I doubt they think Sarah is blocking it but more that she is acting as a security blanket for Chuck.

      • thinkling says:

        That makes more sense to me Luckygirl.

      • Amrit says:

        If season 3 showed us anything sarah walker is not the problem for chuck she is the solution. As much as we know nothing about mama b, what we will know at the end of 4.09 and what we have always known is that when sarah needs chuck when he sees that she is in danger he will step up and the intersect will be back online! that is as certain as death and taxes! His love for her is that deep, the fear of death maybe not chucks but sarah’s, his fear that she will die will get him back!

      • Amrit says:

        oh and this is totally in character, which if it does go down like this I applaud them. In ring when they pointed a gun at sarah he flashed, when javier said I will take care of the girl he flashed, when shaw tried to kill sarah chuck shot him. Chuck may get beaten when he cannot flash but he will never let anything happen to sarah, fake name aside, that was just contrived to fit the story.

      • kg says:

        Amrit one-hundred percent correct in both posts. Excellent examples.

      • thinkling says:

        @Amrit: TOTALLY agree with you on this. When it comes to his own insecurities, Sarah is his security blanket of choice. But just let some threat come to her, and you’re right Amrit. He is back online.

        Might be kinda cool to see Jean-Chuck Van Damme spring into the mud pit to help Sarah out (after she beats the first 14 guys with chainsaws, Dave). OK it probably won’t happen that way, but …

      • atcdave says:

        Well put Amrit. And I’m sure when this arc is over it will affirm that truth; Chuck and Sarah make each other better, and they will do anything for each other.

      • JC says:

        I wonder if Riggle’s character will point out that Chuck hasn’t been trained beyond people yelling flash at him. The majority of his non Intersect spy skills are either instinct or things he picked up by watching other spies. For arguably the most important agent the government has, his training has been sorely neglected. Bonus points if they have Riggle take a shot at Shaw by pointing how worthless he was in that regard.

      • atcdave says:

        JC, do we actually know how much training Chuck got at the start of S3?

        But you’re right, it is almost like every time Superman looses his powers and I’m thinking “c’mon, he’s still a big guy, does he need his powers to do anything?!”. But Chuck has occasionally shown creativity for getting the job done, and contrary to Chuck’s whining in First Fight, Sarah has actually defered to Chuck’s judgement on occasion. It would be nice though if Chuck FELT more capable and respected.

      • thinkling says:

        His training was integrated with Intersect use, but all that time in Prague dedicated to him had to have at least some normal spy training. I’ve never bought that he had NO training. He had a whole facility and training program just for him.

        He starts most fights without flashing. He shoots without flashing. He’s a good spy from the mental standpoint without any Intersect help at all.

        I think you’re right, Dave. So much of it is in his head. All of it is in his head, and I guess that’s the point, lol. His perception of himself needs to change, like Sarah’s did in Cubic Z.

      • JC says:

        I’m not saying he hasn’t any training but someone of his value you’d think the government would want him to be trained to perfection. Of course his worth as the Intersect varies depending on the plot.

        All joking aside though shouldn’t his training go beyond getting him to flash on command. Casey was military before he was NSA and Sarah was trained as a spy since being a teenager. Twice last season he either lost the ability to flash or it was severely limited. Don’t you think anyone might have considered that it could happen again and he would need non Intersect training to protect himself.

  8. Faith says:

    Mary Elizabeth Bartowski = genius. Period.

  9. Amrit says:

    Does anybody wish that for just 5 minutes of an episode chuck and sarah go on a date night? A nice meal, good music ( lighting, and a sweet and endearing chuck telling sarah what he said in first date, what he loves about her? I think that would be good to see them just relaxing and enjoying each others company.

    • Amrit says:

      Oh and dancing, intersect style, just of the two of them in a restaurant just like scent of a women, the tango scene, and everybody applauds and it is so sweet and sexy.

      • thinkling says:

        Yes! I hope we get some dancing at some point this season. And maybe since we have a luxurious 11 extra episodes, we can have some stand-alone eps and some nice C/S moments, date nights or whatever.

    • jason says:

      things like date night are kept for special relationships like shaw and sam. TPTB are far too busy keeping chuck and sarah apart while feeding us sweet awwe shccckkks lines to worry about date nights, dancing, kissing, and even passion. Seems like we are in for hours upon hours of angst in return for moments of together, just like every other season, that engagement is going to seem alot like paris to me, if it occurs in 4×24 …. the only payoff last season was the next 2 episodes together b4 the angst started again – this time there may be no payoff at all, 4×24 engagement and ride off into the sunset, you only can cry ‘angst’ so many times while running thru the town.

      • Faith says:

        always heartwarming, aren’t you Jason? 😉 I’m kidding.

        In a lot of ways they’ve already shown me that they’ve learned from S3. They’re already building up to the engagement and it’s not even here yet…the same could not have been said last season, much less any relationship progression. Don’t get me wrong, I stand by my more PDA stance…but that doesn’t necessarily mean (at least to me) that they’re doing a disservice to the central relationship, like they have in the past.

        Amrit, one of my most favorite lines is Chuck saying he has to win her again and again, and again. I would so love a revisiting of that…I’m not even asking for much, an attempt at least that leads to a mission seems in character. Honeymooners hit gold (hehe, another one) with that.

      • jason says:

        yea – I am pretty frustrated with the direction that the show has taken, I have a very strong dislike for the showrunner’s way of telling stories, yet a very strong interest in watching CS, they got me at the ballerina, but it is quite possible to like CS and dislike most of the elements of the show, trust me, that is where I am at …

        so yea, I really ? my commitment to the show at this point, last season, after 3×8, at least about half this board was in such a state & sort of picked each other up, this time, it is pretty much just me, probably time to find a new hobby.

        Odd thing, I like most tv, castle / smallville angst I think is funny, I still watch fringe, undercovers, the event, and no ordinary family – but what is being done to the chuck and sarah characters in this show, seems near criminal to me, such a waste, give those 2 characters to a real showrunner, my goodness, the show would indeed be epic. Here, they struggle to keep their heads above water because they won’t let them be in each and every episode – like having a star QB and only letting him play the last 5 minutes of each season – makes for a great 5 minutes, but not a great team record.

      • Faith says:

        First if we’re not doing enough to pick you up…we’re gonna have to step it up 😉 You’ve done it for me, well everyone here at least…I like to think we can return the favor.

        Second, I think your investment into these characters are a testament to just how lovable they are. I feel the same. I’m less affected by the ships on other shows (well when it’s going bad, when it’s going good I’m pretty giddy) than I am of anything resembling conflict on Chuck…I wouldn’t want that to change. The opposite of love is apathy.

        Third, let me ask you this…angst aside, how do you see their relationship progression thus far this season? I’m not talking S3, or even S2 but this season. I’m less concerned about them rushing the story this time around because it feels to me like in every episode (Cubic Z included) they have left breadcrumbs that lead to the ultimate climax. I’m not convinced the proposal will happen in 4×24, but if it does I feel like it we’re building up to that as is. For lack of a better explanation, from a story-telling standpoint there’s an outline here…one we’re not completely aware yet, but a strong, decisive, committed outline that is being expounded weekly.

      • jason says:

        thx faith, yea, it isn’t even dislike for the actual s4 eps, I’ve liked all of them, save the last 5 minutes of 4×6. I liked 4×7 pretty much too, although just how stupid can the writers make chuck – come on?

        I just have more an over-reaching attitude of being tired of being played by the angst, all 4 seasons worth. For me, it happened at the end of 4×6, and all the evidence since then points to I got it right, the angst game is indeed on again.

        Seems like the moment the spy story gets good, the CS relationship needs to split – either physically or emotionally or both, for some reason, I thought TPTB were going to let CS solve the mystery together this season, like they did in season 2’s last couple of eps. For at least the next 2 episodes, it looks like not (also seems that way in the prison episode 4×11? we saw stills of – CS apart again?)

        Time will tell I guess. Thx again faith.

      • atcdave says:

        Jason you are certainly not alone in your concerns; there have been other occasional posters here who feel the same way, and I am certain there are many other lurkers here and casual viewers in the fan base who feel exactly like you do. So you serve an important function in representing a minority viewpoint. And I’d say you articulate it quite well; you add a slant to our discussions here that is needed. And I am no fan of relationship angst either, for whatever reason I’m not as bothered this season as you are, but I do get your concerns.

        And I would say, if the engagement is put off all the way until 4.24 you will not be the only person who feels like there was WAY too little pay off for this season. I’m really expecting it in the 4.10-4.13 range; with a wedding for 4.24. I can’t say I require that, they may keep me happy anyway; but I really want to see some actual progress before the end of the season.

      • First Timer says:

        For a season that supposedly is about family, TPTB have given us precious little family stuff. Family mythology, yes. Quality family time, no.

        We’re not even getting things like we had in Season 1: the family game/pizza time scene in Wookie, the Chinatown excursion in Sizzling Shrimp or the Chuck-Sarah/Awesom Ellie double date. And genuine Chuck/Sarah moments since their coupling (outside the bedroom, I mean) have been rare, too: the TV watching meta-joke and the blueberries moment, both of which were season 3.

        I guess the writers just don’t see the characters the way we do. We LOVE these characters and are weirdly interested in those silly little domestic moments that define a relationship. The writers move them around a chessboard for plot and story purposes.

        I am surprised, though, that a crew this talented simply can’t find humor, fun and (of course) a spy-related thread in the domestic stuff. Once in a while, I mean. Would it be so terrible to start a spy drama with a Chuck-Sarah “normal” date night?

        Ali Adler was a master at balancing a semblance of spy and personal life. Even the awful Fake Name had, at its heart, a family dinner. Klemmer did some nice stuff in Suburbs and Role Models. Without knowing yet what the new writers are stongest at, one would assume it falls to Judkins and LeFranc to do it. After all, they managed the near impossible in First Fight: To have Chuck and Sarah fighting together effectively, as a couple, while they were fighting with each other.

        We should be able to get some domestic bliss to balance the spy stuff in some other episode.

      • atcdave says:

        Some really good comments there First Timer. We’ve seen some “family” gatherings this season at the start of Suitcase and end of Couch Lock; but you’re right that I think most fans want more. There should be plenty of fun and humor to explore between the innate role reversal of the show and a super spies enjoy a day off sort of thing. It would be nice to see Chuck and Sarah enjoying their down time on occasion (outside of the bedroom!)

      • thinkling says:

        Agree Dave and First Timer. I really hope we get more of that in the rest of the season.

        They had such an ambitious spy arc for such a short space. That may be why we lost some of the personal stuff we love so much.

      • Judy says:

        I’m glad that C and S are together. To me it doesn’t matter at all if they get engaged/marry. I’m not pining for that plot line.

        In any event, given Cubic Z and Coup D’Etat, it seems pretty clear that TPTB are moving in that direction. It’s simply a question of whether it comes at the end of the season or before.

        I would much rather that it be carefully integrated into the flow of the season rather than at any particular time. Although I very much enjoyed all of the “relationship” episodes at the beginning of Season 4, it seems like they were put there to placate the fan base rather than to really advance the plot.

        I thought First Fight had the right mix of all of the aspects of Chuck. And it even moved the relationship along.

      • kg says:

        Yeah Jason, the Blooms are not as dear to me as Chuck and Sarah, but I must admit I’ve still taken a liking to Stephen and Samantha.

        They’re an attractive couple, they’ve got a business together and they competently spy together.

        As you know, they’ve agreed not to talk about their past spy careers before they met and married, but alas, things have seeped out during the first eight episodes.

        The Hoyt character is geeky, but helpful and funny. Leo provides minimal angst as a fellow spy and former BF of Sam.

        The premise is they’ve both been out of the CIA for five years, and then suddenly they are convinced by Carleton Shaw (LOL) to re-activate because their special skills and talents are needed for delicate missions the regular CIA can’t handle. Or better yet, are unable to handle.

        But Shaw and someone above him has another agenda for bringing them back. This Shaw guy (Gerald McRaney) can’t be trusted and the Blooms are just realizing that and are starting to formulate and ask some serious questions.

        Not even close to my interest in CHUCK, but I have developed more than a passing interest in Undercovers. It’s an above average show for an otherwise dreadful (for me anyway) Wednesday night.

      • Tamara Burks says:

        I think Undercovers would have had a much better chance if they’d gotten rids of her annoying ex.

  10. thinkling says:

    One more thought on your original post, Joe. Dignity’s comment made me think about it.

    She has taken a tremendous risk to break cover for the sake of her children. It really is time to finish the mission.

    But she has to wonder in the back of her mind if she has been persuasive enough. Has she sold the whole deal to Volkoff? Does he still believe her? That’s why the drastic measures. Carmichael has to be dead and anyone else who knew Orion’s secrets. She has to be willing to brutally murder them and coldly destroy her husbands legacy. Pulling it off is her very survival. Did she sell it?

    Maybe. We certainly hope so. But maybe not. She may be returning to torture, followed by death. Volkoff is certainly capable of it, like she told C/S in their first meet. So, with that as a possibility in her mind, her words to Sarah become all the more meaningful, almost poignant. At this point the trust bestowed is much more than we have talked about thus far. It isn’t Protect him, until we can all finish this. It is I’m passing my life’s mission to you. I trust you with my son … for life. Goosebumps.

    • amyabn says:

      One thing that has me puzzled is the whole Frost shooting Carmichael deal.
      -She shoots him ‘cuz he’s CIA; he clearly lives
      -Carmichael still helps Frost as a colleague; are we to believe that Volkoff believes the ruse? Did Frost return to Volkoff, tell him that Carmichael was wearing a vest, and she needs to dupe him to get to Orion’s lair to destroy it so no one else can come after her?

      It makes me question the logic of the writing as well as the endgame Frost is playing. Has she helped Volkoff knock off all the other little fish so he’s the only game in town, only to prepare to take him down and there won’t be anyone to take his place? I hope the writers don’t gloss over this and we get some explanation to her motives and actions.

      • thinkling says:

        Here’s the way I’ve put it together in my head.

        Orion was a bit of a burr under Volkoff’s saddle. With Orion gone, Volkoff reigns unhindered … until Chuck stirs up a hornets nest when he goes looking for his mom. “Oh, Chuck.” Volkoff now has another pesky agent swarming around his operation … darn Carmichael. He is a problem. And who makes Volkoff’s problems go away? Frost.

        So MEB launches her mission. She breaks cover to protect her son from Volkoff, under the guise of protecting Volkoff from Carmichael. Frost probably spun Volkoff a version of the tale that included her convincing Carmichael to pose as the weapons dealer. She would then go in, reveal his CIA identity, and shoot him. Getting Wheelwright’s nasty weapon into safe hands was a bonus.

        So she sets up the AoT events, giving Chuck a similar version of the story. In the process she shoots Carmichael with Volkoff tuned in. Volkoff believes Carmichael is dead. Problem solved. The family is safe. Mission accomplished. She is about to leave, when Chuck melts her resolve with the news that Ellie is pregnant.

        Everything still might have been OK were it not for Casey finding the file and Sarah arresting Frost. That changes everything and makes the second charade necessary.

        Through something prearranged means or signal Volkoff knows that Frost was captured. It was through the arrest and Chuck’s persistence that Carmichael was resurrected. (All Frost need tell Volkoff is that Carmichael had come better prepared than she anticipated. He was wearing a vest; another agent — his girlfriend — was present and started shooting. Man, Carmichael really is as good as his rep. :O)

        Thus begins another Frost special … a mission to protect her family, disguised as a problem solving exercise for Volkoff. Only this time, b/c the first efforts failed, the man himself, feels he must step in to destroy Orion’s base and everyone who knew about it.

        The final scene must play out with Frost and Volkoff working as partners to destroy the last of Volkoff’s nemeses. This is a command performance made all the more difficult by the presence of Chuck & Sarah. MEB must also hope that neither of them gives away anything about the family ties. She and Volkoff walk off together. Problem solved. mission accomplished.

        **Random thought: I wonder if Sarah has any idea what’s going on earlier, from the way she looks at Chuck when Volkoff asks him who Orion was to him. Does she have any inkling that maybe Frost is pulling a two-way scam? Her future actions may tell.

      • thinkling says:

        Ah, yes, Volkoff believes that Frost continues to play Carmichael. He can’t figure out why, but since Carmichael is Orion’s protégé, he buys Carmichael’s willingness to help Frost. He believes Frost is playing Carmichael all along, just as he believes she played Orion in the past.

      • atcdave says:

        It is still interesting though that Volkoff knows Frost shot Carmichael; and yet Sarah remains concerned that Carmichael would commit treason to protect Frost. Perhaps that’s why Volkoff keeps questioning who Orion was to Carmichael. Its almost like he has an idea but can’t get any confirmation. I’m thinking he may figure it out soon, which may trigger a rescue operation of Frost.

      • thinkling says:

        That could be a problem, Dave, but MEB had no control over that. She did step in immediately, though Kids. Kids …

        MEB is playing a dangerous, dangerous game. She can tell Volkoff that poor Carmichael was poisoned by Orion’s illusions … pitiful, really, both of them.

        She obviously has some sway over him, if she has deceived him for 20 yrs. Or she’s in cahoots, but to me the evidence says otherwise.

      • thinkling says:

        Missed the last of your comment, Dave. I think you’re right. Volkoff may begin to smell the coffee and figure things out. I figure an MEB rescue is bound to be needed. But now with the spoilers we’re getting, it seems that it would be Thanksgiving day.

        Is it Monday yet?

      • atcdave says:

        I’m thinking Thanksgiving too. Sorry, If I faked you out with the fast edit trick. I thought of it between hitting enter and seeing it post.

      • herder says:

        The official synopsis for the Leftovers is out, if you’re interested it is posted at , I’m never sure about the spoiler policy here although official synosis should be ok.

      • thinkling says:

        Aha, the ol’ fast-edit fake out. What a relief, I thought I was having early onset senility.

      • atcdave says:

        We don’t have a spoiler policy here Herder. we’re all fanatics, so who are we kidding, we want to know it al!l

      • thinkling says:

        @herder: didn’t find it at strahotski, but I did find it here

      • atcdave says:

        I also noticed the note that 4.10 was the last new episode until 2011.

    • jason says:

      I’ll just throw this in at the end here somewhere, for those concerned about the bear, right now, I am not so sure 16 or 17 more episodes of CS doing jumping jacks on shaw’s grave for 42 minutes would not get renewed, tv by the numbers – undercovers 1.2M, the 2 law and order shows 1.7M / 2M:

      • thinkling says:

        Oh come on. That’s just silly … I would be happy with only half that many jumping jacks on Shaw’s grave. 😉

    • joe says:

      Oooh – great thought, Thinkling. That idea got lost in all the machinations – “Is she good or is she bad?”

      I am now wondering if/when Chuck and/or Sarah will realize this!

      • jason says:

        joe / anyone – did I read 4.10’s synopsis right, mama b and volkov are coming to dinner at ellie or chuck’s???

      • First Timer says:

        Why are we assuming that the Volkoff we’ve been presented in the form of Timothy Dalton is a) bad; or b) the real Volkoff. There’s no reason to assume either yet.

        Remember what Orion said at the end of last season: He’d been a spy for 20 years doing things governments didn’t want to do. So what if Volkoff Industries is a “front” for a combine of spies who do things governments don’t want to do?

        In other words, this year’s “big bad” is actually a group of black-ops good guys!

        The previous bad guys in Chuck, Fulcrum and the Ring, had infiltrated the good guy operations. So what if Volkoff Industries is a bunch of good guys who infiltrate bad-guy operations? It’s the kind of retread/retell that the Chuck showrunners love…

      • joe says:

        @jason – that’s what it looked like to me!

      • joe says:

        It *is* an assumption, First Timer. But for now, it’s one we’re supposed to believe. Unlike with Mary, there’s no hint that we should expect otherwise.

        Of course, we all love our plot twists here, and that one would be devilish! 😉

      • atcdave says:

        I wouldn’t take it so literally, I think the “dinner” line could just be euphemism for dropping in on t-day. I’m quite sure Volkoff is a baddie; good guys don’t torture or execute underlings who fail them. Yes I know the spy world is a dangerous place, but I won’t buy a good guy who does such things.

      • thinkling says:

        The Thanksgiving plot definitely thickens.

        I figure the ep would be more interesting if Ellie and Devon, and whoever else is there, still don’t know Chuck is back in the CIA. So, that makes me think that Ellie still won’t have found out about Chuck being in the CIA.

        No matter the combination of people, it sure sounds interesting.


      • thinkling says:

        Can you imagine the looks on Chuck’s & Sarah’s faces when they first get a look at Mom’s +1. Wonder if he’ll be wearing his Tuttle face and sweater or his Volkoff suit.

        And yeah, I can’t see any way that Volkoff ends up being good.

      • atcdave says:

        If Volkoff comes to dinner it’s with a gun to kill Frost’s children. I just can’t buy him as a polite dinner guest, he just tried to kill Chuck and Sarah!

      • jason says:

        this would be very shaw repetitive, but possibly volkov viewing the dinner on a feed, while mary is having dinner, possibly chuck toasting the greatest hero in the world, our dad, steven j bartkowski, pan to volkov’s angry face and cut for a 45 day break. I would say the most likely engagement eps are 4.10 (5%), then 4.13 (10%), then sometime after 4.20(35%), with 4.24’s end (50%) the odds on favorite.

      • thinkling says:

        His objective will be to kill them, but will he toy with them first? Or just come in with his gun drawn. If he plays the guest, it would only be a temporary ruse, which would be kind of fun and creepy to watch, b/c not everyone would know. The family dinner would be under siege, and most people wouldn’t know it.

      • Faith says:

        What if Volkoff is PapaB’s brother?

        There could be this whole new connection that we don’t know that just blows the mind again.

        Big Mike did say that marriage means living with your spouse’s crazy family.

      • jason says:

        faith – one of my crazy specs was mary was volkov’s sister, that she met orion on a mission, deep cover, but went back to russia to keep her evil brother under control and keep him away from her family

      • First Timer says:

        I would agree that Dalton’s character is, most likely, a bad guy.


        You haven’t actually seen Volkoff do any of those bad things you describe. They were all done in his name. In fact, if anything, the only one who actually killed anyone was Mama B, in episode 1.

        Besides, I am merely suggesting we NOT assume anything yet. Actually, we’re all suffering from Season 3 hangover and we assume the dullest, most obvious story is what happens.

        This show used to be clever. (Remember the “bomb” that was Bryce or the back of the Tron poster?) Maybe we’re in for a really clever twist this time.

      • JC says:

        What about those spoiler pics about the prison and Chuck in an orange jumpsuit?
        Does Chuck follow in his mother’s footsteps and go undercover as a traitor? MEB and Volkoff could just be meeting their new employee Charles Carmichael.

      • Faith says:

        Jason, crazy specs win lol. But the only reason I cancelled out sister is because he looks at her like he’s infatuated with her. There’s definitely something going on there.

        First timer, that’s what makes him so fun and so very evil to me. He’s not the kind of bad guy that gets his hands dirty and that’s all the more…evil.

        Don’t know if I remember the jump suit JC. Seems intriguing.

      • thinkling says:

        @First Timer: I think there are definitely some more twists to come. Just the spoilers we know so far guarantee that. But I don’t see much way around Volkoff being the big bad. We did see him set explosives to blow up C/S. That would be pretty hard to explain away. (not that TPTB feel compelled to explain things)

        @JC: Now, that would be a twist…

        Personally, I don’t think Volkoff is related to any of them. Faith’s right about the looks he gives Frost, and if he were PapaB’s brother, he would likely have more knowledge of the Bartowski’s.

      • jason says:

        tuttle gave her looks, volkov seemed to not care at all, and seemed to even notice sarah if you rewatch

      • thinkling says:

        That’s true Jason. But Volkoff was all business in the basement. I thought his touching Sarah was meant more to intimidate. Then he added the bit about Frost’s husband meaning nothing to her … perhaps marking his territory?

      • atcdave says:

        I’m thinking the prison will be pure undercover work; like Chuck going in to flash on someone or win their confidence and question them.

        Thinkling hit on a scenario I could buy, Volkoff holding the Thanksgiving hostage with only Chuck and Sarah even knowing who he is; but I still think that’s too literal. My guess is he won’t actually be in the home at all, its just a metaphorical reference. Frost will likely be there, while Volkoff’s presence is hanging over the event in some way. Maybe I’m overthinking it.

        I thought Fedak had said in an interview that Volkoff was not related to the Bartowski’s in any way. I don’t recall the reference, maybe I’m making that up?

        Volkoff noticing Sarah gets my vote as creepy move of the year, even beating any Jeffster moment. I agree it was mostly to intimidate, but still; what kind of guy eyes a woman just before he blows her up?!

      • jason says:

        dave – that creepy move is why I have very little faith in TPTB to tell the CS love story as well as it deserves to be told – too bad really

        I know the volkov frost sibling thing is a 1% chance, I just don’t have many logical reasons for a parent to leave for 20 years, other than she fell in love with volkov or she is genuinely evil or both, which I think would make her never welcome as a regular chuck family character … regardless of how much she still loves her kids ….

        i do not think the sibling thing is correct by the way, and I do think the reason for frost leaving will be somewhat logical, and will allow her to be welcome as a family member, I just can’t think of the reason

      • JC says:


        Earlier in the season I thought Sarah would be the one forced into going undercover within Volkoff to protect Chuck. But if Volkoff gets close to his family or threatens them I could see him following in MEB’s footsteps.

        In a way it makes sense. Sarah has been a spy longer so she would understand MEB’s actions. But after what happened in First Fight plus his abandonment issues I could see Chuck holding a grudge. It’d be interesting to see him forced to make the same sacrifice as his mother. Even if it’s only an episode or two.

      • atcdave says:

        That is an interesting scenario JC. I don’t like it but it is interesting!

      • thinkling says:

        what kind of guy eyes a woman just before he blows her up?!

        One who wants her last moments to be truly horrible … defeated and degraded. And Sarah did not like it. Neither did Chuck.

        I also thought I heard the no relative thing mentioned, but I don’t remember exactly where.

      • thinkling says:

        @Jason: I’m betting that Frost has stayed under this long to protect her family. Also she only had Stephen as an ally, which would make it hard to actually complete the mission.

        Now, things have changed. Orion’s gone, but in TeamB she has the help she needs to take down Volkoff.

        I kind of doubt the whole MI6 part, since Tuttle was a phony.

      • joe says:

        Wow – this started with Thinkling wondering if MEB had concerns about her Volkoff seeing her deceptions. Was she persuasive enough?

        Indeed – who is being played here? Volkoff? Mary? Chuck?

        BTW, I’m relieved that I wasn’t the only one to think that Alexei was being “oily” with Sarah in the basement. For a while I thought that flicker of prurience was only in my own mind. It was subtle and a great bit of acting.

        And that tells me that ultimately, it’s the audience that’s being played! 😉

        I may have convinced myself that First Timer was completely right. We have to watch for twists.

      • thinkling says:

        @Joe: On the oily, creepy scale from 1 to 10, he was about a 15. And Yvonne played it perfectly … the consummate spy, not wanting to give any reaction and the woman. All I can say is Volkoff better be glad she was hog-tied at the time.

        iimy (is it monday yet)

      • joe says:

        So, you’re sayin’ he was about as subtle as a brick, huh? And here I thought I was picking up on an emotional nuance.

        I’m such a “guy” sometimes! 😉

      • thinkling says:

        Yeah, Joe, that’s almost more of a violation then the ropes and explosives. At least that’s my take. And TD was particularly oily … and that’s a great word, btw. He’s so smooth and so evil, so I guess that equals oily.

      • First Timer says:

        Again, the question about Volkoff is WHO. There can be no guarantees that the character Dalton is playing is the real Volkoff. Or that there IS a Volkoff at all. They might finally be playing a Dread Pirate Roberts card, for example.

        As for any potential twist, I agree that we just don’t know. And a lot of what we’re guessing now is based on the always not-quite-accurate synopsis for 4.10. But I suggest a couple of things:

        1) If Mom just shows up out of family loyalty and is tracked by Volkoff, well, then, so much for her being a superspy. And so much for the 20-year mission TPTB claim has been so carefully hidden.

        2) If Mom and Dalton arrive together to menace, well, they damned well better have another great twist. Because Volkoff can’t be bright if Frost is going to misdirect him a THIRD time and Mom can’t be that bright if she brings the putative bad guy right to her family’s home.

        So unless the writers have a really, really good angle going here (hence my spec that Dalton may not be Volkoff or that Volkoff, like Frost, is actually a good guy), the quality of the spying will take a real hit.

        A 20-year mission strains credulity, of course. Besides, if Mom is a good guy (and she is), why wouldn’t she just have lured Volkoff to Orion’s lair and had Chuck and Sarah (and her) take him out.

        I do believe something else is being written here. At least I hope so. Otherwise, we’ll have another bad-guy arc that ends with a whimper, not a story. Because, really, after the rather pedestrian ends dished up to Fulcrum and the Ring, it’s time for a real good story.

      • thinkling says:

        First Timer, I do wonder what all is going to happen between now and T-day to bring us what we read for 4.10. The games is afoot.

        I agree that from what we know now, it doesn’t make much sense that Mom would show up with the big-bad. So stuff is happening somewhere, or as you suggest, we don’t have the whole story, yet.

        I’m enjoying the ride, though. No matter what happens, I think the Volkoff story is much more compelling than Fulcrum or the Ring, and LH & TD are great.

        Your twist of TD not being Volkoff (maybe he really is Tuttle?) or Volkoff not being bad … I like the twist. But I can’t figure out why the ruse of tying up C/S and blowing up the basement. I can see why they might have wanted to blow up Orion’s base, and fake Carmichael’s death, but if it’s for someone else’s benefit, why bother to actually tie them up and give them a blade to escape.

        My pesos are still on TD=Volkoff=big bad, but I think your twist ideas are interesting and would make a great ride. Thanks for stretching my imagination.

      • MichaelCarmichael says:

        @First Timer

        I’m not sure if I’d lay money on Volkoff being anything but what he seems. But I’m also intrigued about Orion and how we usually conclude that he’s a “good” guy. Calling back to Delorean, when Sarah says Chuck attributes good intentions to her father because Chuck’s a good person – maybe we do the same to Orion because he’s Chuck’s dad. We actually don’t know much about him other than that both the good guys and the bad guys want him, and he has a dangerous capacity – like next gen computers capable of commandeering military hardware – to conduct his own agenda.

        “Doing things governments are afraid to” is a pretty ambiguous term – wasn’t that what Fulcrum said it was doing too? Combine that with the “I’m never wrong” from Chuck vs. the Living Dead. And the ability to send out a predator drone.

      • First Timer says:

        Well, I think you can comfortable conclude Orion is a good guy. He fought Fulcrum. And his acceptance of Chuck having Intersect 2.0 is couched this way: You (Chuck) downloaded it to help people, which is why I invented the original Intersect.

        So anything off the books he did “for her” as Orion should be good, too.

        Besides, I don’t see the showrunners going that dark and having one (or both) of Chuck’s parents positioned as morally ambiguous. I think the standards of this kind of TV make it impossible for either Orion or Frost to be anything but good guys.

    • kg says:

      Thinkling, I’m sure you’ve seen the synopsis for 4-10 Leftovers. It doesn’t make any sense.

      Volkoff left the Orion lair believing Carmichael and Walker were dead and buried at the bottom of it. And now, he’s attending a dinner at their home the day after Thanksgiving?

      This guy isn’t and idiot. He has to suspect that his girl Frost saved them. And how in the hell does she hide the fact that Ellie and Chuck are her children? And when he makes that connection, how can he not conclude Chuck is Orion’s son?

      • kg says:

        Couple of things since I’ve read on and caught up.

        Like First Timer, the night the episode aired, I said to myself if she really wanted to end this, she had Chuck and Sarah there with her – 3 on 1. So yeah, Tuttle/Dalton can’t be Volkoff. He might be someone big within the organization, but The Guy.

        Why didn’t Chuck bark something at Volkoff/Tuttle when he creepily looked over and then touched Sarah?

  11. herder says:

    Slightly different topic, what is the shooting schedule, when do they break for a bit and when do they return. The reason that I ask is that we have not heard of any guest star announcements since Richard Chamberlain as the Belgian.

    I realize that they tend to get hyper-secretive about who is in the season finales hiding Bryce’s return in season two and trying to hide Shaw’s return in season 3. So some of the silence could be because they have a suprise or two up their sleeves also it could be that with the regular cast, Mama B and Volkov they don’t have room for others.

    If they are tapeing the first thirteen and then a break before returning for the back eleven (how I like saying that) then they may have not got to the point in the scripts where they are casting guests.

    Personally some of the guest stars that I would like to see for the back nine are as follows

    1- Returning guests: Mama B, Volkov, Carina (Mini Anden), Jack Burton (Gary Cole), Vincent (Arnold Vosloo) and FitzGerald.

    2- New guests (within the show’s budget): Dan Akroyd, Pee Wee Herman( not playing Pee Wee), Sarah Sahai, George Hodgeson (I’m a pc) and if she’s still in LA Gugu M’Batha Raw.

    • thinkling says:

      Who is Fitzgerald. (Ella is the only one that comes to mind, but that can’t be right.) Do you mean Fitzroy?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        As in son of the king…

      • thinkling says:

        the very one. Does that make him a prince among men?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I think Fitzroy would be great since one of the things they seem to be highlighting this season is that Carmichael has quite the reputation and a growing enemies list. I could see him still starstruck over Chuck’s exploits, but frightened to death of Sarah, even while saying he forgives her … while keeping his distance.

      • thinkling says:

        Yeah he would be good … and way out of his depth.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Besides, it’s just plain funny to see him stand next to Chuck and Sarah.

      • thinkling says:

        It is that. Although, he’d probably be careful to keep Chuck between him and Sarah.

      • Tamara Burks says:

        I had to look him up. He was in Tic Tac. I think the WTF at the end of the ep may have blanked him out for many people.

      • thinkling says:

        Better to remember Fitzroy and forget the ending!

      • atcdave says:

        Like a few other S3 episodes, it was a good time until the sour ending ruined it utterly. One more for my “will not watch again” list.

    • JC says:

      I’d love to see Gugu M’Batha Raw on Chuck, she was the only good thing about Undercovers. Although her and Yvonne on screen at the same time might overload my senses.

      A few names I’d add Sarah Michelle Gellar, James Marsters and Christopher Eccleston.

    • Ernie Davis says:

      Gugu M’Batha Raw would add a bit of irony, or perhaps bitter irony based on all the scheadenfreude over feeding Undercovers to the bear.

    • Faith says:

      I don’t have first hand knowledge of Chuck per say but as I understand it for most shows it takes about 6 weeks from conception (pre-writing) to showing.

      Shows also tend to take 2-3 weeks from filming during December…much like the fresh episodes do. Since they film in advance they’re not leaving themselves behind doing so.

      If I’m not mistaken they’re actually still shooting. They should be around 12 or 13 by now actually. Although the photos don’t exactly scream: finale.

      Here’s a S2 reference into the shooting schedule from Mel (written on Oct 2008): “They’ll probably take a 4-6 week break after 2.12, then come back and film 2-3 eps, then break for the holidays (2-3 weeks), then come back and film the remaining episodes.” Probably similar this time around…albeit somewhat faster with the initial 13 episode order. Season finales (episode 22 or 4.24 in this case is usually filmed in March).

      As for who I’d like to see…anyone from Legend of the Seeker. Bridget Regan tops my list.

  12. joe says:

    A little OT comment: I’ve placed the latest synopsis of 4.10 Chuck vs. The Leftovers in The S4 Spoiler Page.

  13. Tamara Burks says:

    On there are some picture taken by a fan where they’re filming now . It’s believed to be ep 12. It’s set in a federal prison. The fan pictures show Sarah in dusguise and Josh Gomez twittered a pic of Morgan and Casey disguised as prison guards.

  14. Amrit says:

    I would like to congratulate the cast on the excellent work they have done, the reason? well this: I recently introduced my mom to chuck and so we basically marathoned the first 3 seasons in one week on our vacation. I warned her that season 3 will be a lot darker and you may get really frustrated by the love interests of the first 2 seasons and season 3’s will be the worst. After she watched them, she turned around and said to me that was not as frustrating as you said, stunned I asked why not?

    She said that the one thing that she has noticed from sarah is that when she’s around another guy she is not as at ease then when she is around chuck. When she kissed bryce she was leaning back and her hands were all around the back of his head and she looked like a women who did not know where to put them, confused maybe, ir does not feel natural to her. When sarah kissed cole as passionate as it was she was leaning back the whole time and put her hands on his chest to push him away. The same with shaw. She said when sarah kisses chuck, she runs her hands through his hair or she carresses his face the whole time and she presses her whole body against his (especially in colonel where she rapped her leg and whole body against his). She said no matter what was said or done in season 3 the body language said it all, when she is with chuck she gives herself 100% to chuck, her words say one thing but her subconscious say’s another. It all lies in the kissing, the intimacy that exists between the two is there, the intent is there. Yeah some of the kisses she shared with the other guy’s look passionate, but the body say’s another thing entirely, she never gives herself, her heart, her mind and in the end of the day that is what counts! Maybe that is what love is for sarah walker, the words are not always there but the actions say it all. Listening to this, why did I ever consider losing faith?

    • Amrit says:

      Oh I forgot to mention, for something that is not real, it is still exceptional work by zach and yvonne, great work!

    • thinkling says:

      Very interesting observation. Thanks for that, Amrit.

    • atcdave says:

      Your mom is not the first to notice Sarah and Shaw (or is it Yvonne and Branden?) just never clicked. I think its also easier to take strait through, get it over with fast! Watching one at a time, with a two week break after Mask, was excruciating!

      • thinkling says:

        Yeah. I watched them straight through, and I have thought many times how awful it would have been to have to do s3 a week at a time. Ugh shivverr

      • jason says:

        I don’t think I would be a fan had I watched s1/s2 as a weekly fan, I really don’t like the style that TPTB tell a serialized story SOMETIMES, I watched the whole show in less than 2 weeks. I recall nearly turning it off in the ep where sarah kissed bryce during thanksgiving dinner, during the entire cole episodes, and for sure after mauser, mauser just is not what I wanted in tv. I did not like the suburbs either. But watching them all at once, you quickly get eps like best friends or delorean or hard salami, and holy cow, noone does it better.

      • jason says:

        by the way, that is my theory how 2 distinct fan factions are here who both love the show, those who were able to tolerate the weekly angst s1/s2, and those new fans that found the show at the start of s3, who did not have to endure any real angst at all. It is just 2 different types of fans. Myabe others understood that for a long time, I am first just realizing that now. I seem to recall Liz James mentioning that last winter, go figure she’d be the one to get things a year b4 me.

        If you note sometime, the start of s3 due to sci fi channel and advertising, had fans coming out of their ears. I was hooked after watching one ep on sy fy over the holidays.

      • atcdave says:

        Interesting point Jason about the different sorts of fans. I never like angst, but it doesn’t always upset me much either. I didn’t care for the angst arc of S1 much, and I certainly didn’t care for the Bryce smooch; but I think the beginning of Crown Vic was the only time I almost threw in the towel that season. S2 it only bothered me a couple times; I hated The Ex, but liked the rest of the arc. Didn’t care for the Mauser shooting, but mainly because of Chuck’s over-reaction to it; I had no problem with Sarah’s actions. I hated the end of Suburbs and the beginning of Beefcake, but I was okay by the end of that episode. S3, in spite of a couple of good episodes, was just a total fubar. I will simply never get how they thought that was a good idea. While there have been a few details I would change with this season, I really haven’t been bothered by any angst yet. I could change my mind if C/S are apart for too long, as determined by a random element I can’t currently define.

      • Big Kev says:

        I think it also depends a lot on what type of show you perceive Chuck to be. If you think of Chuck as a light hearted spy/mythology show that just happens to have a central relationship in it, then your tolerance of angst may well be lower.
        My first episode was Hard Salami, and I thought immediately that this was a relationship show that happened to be about spies. That’s still how I view the show today, so I guess on that basis, I just think a certain level of relationship tension over a season is a given. To me it’s more about where the angst comes from and how it’s handled rather than whether it exists.
        I’m playing with fire here but I still think that an arc exploring how Chucks progression to real spyhood would change him, and possibly change Sarah’s perception of him made perfect sense. It was the first time either party had to consider the option of Chuck as a full time spy after all. That said, it was an arc that should have been over and done with in 5/6 episodes rather than 13 – and you’ll get no argument from me about what an utter disaster Shaw was, both in conception and execution.
        On that subject, a couple of people who attended Chuckfest 2 have mentioned comments from Chris Fedak about how the reactions to S3 did actually affect him, and how he’s trying to redeem himself this season. Don’t know how true that is – but I’m incredibly thankful that Chris, the writers and most of the fandom have so many more reasons to be happy this season.

      • herder says:

        One thing that was different last year was the leeway given to TPTB on account of the happiness with season 2. Really, that was a brutal start with Pink Slip and Three Words, and much of the goodwill was intentionally burned with those two episodes in the sense that “we have a story to tell and this is a necessary part of it” but things were held together with the promise that it would be emotional and traumatic but great.

        The next two episodes, Angel del Muerte and Awesome Operation were very good. This was followed by First Class and Natcho Sampler which were good but had disturbing things in them. Then came Mask and Fake Name when it suddenly dawned on, at least me, that we were going through all this so that they could do the love interest thing again, for the fifth and sixth time, it wasn’t great, it wasn’t good, it wasn’t even original.

        But people still hung on because we were told that the Beard was a great episode, it was a very good one but again, it dawned, at least to me that they weren’t going to fix the Chuck and Sarah thing until the very end. After the Beard ratings did their final collapse right through to the end.

        To me the greatest casualty of this was the trust in TPTB, we had the back six, the couply first four of this year, and the good start to the Mama B arc, twelve episodes. There is a synopsis that comes out suggesting that Chuck and Sarah are fighting and people overreact some even refuse to watch what they fear is a return to the worst of season 3. As it turns out the episode was the best of the year so far but my point is that there was such fear that they would go back to what had not worked in the past. Not enough faith to wait and see for some, that is the consequence of season three.

        If there had been more chemistry between Routh and Strahovski I don’t think that the story would have been any better received, as it was it just added insult to injury. A story about the changes in Chuck and whether those changes are superficial or deeper is a valid story to tell, and had it been told in another way it might have been enjoyable, but I’m left with the idea that it was told the way it was to do the love interest thing a fifth and sixth time and make them really big because it may be the last time we can do them.

        I don’t think that my love for the show would survive another 3.6 – 3.12 stretch, I don’t think that it would survive another Pink Slip and Three Words. That it did survive those the first time around speaks volumes about the impression that the first two seasons made on me.

      • Big Kev says:

        Completely agree Herder. Trust has been a huge casualty among some parts of the fanbase in reaction to S3 – and some of the reactions even in S2 tended to be volatile!
        Personally I thought 3 episodes out of the 19 were dreadful – and I enjoyed the rest, so I’ll take that over a season. My faith in TPTB is pretty much intact because it wasn’t damaged as much as some – but hopefully more episodes like First Fight will go some way to healing the breach for the rest.

      • atcdave says:

        You guys know, I mostly agree with with Big Kev here and totally with Herder. I watched Chuck from the Pilot, and I guess it took a while for it to dawn on me how much of a driving force the relationship would be (put me in the light hearted spy story camp; I never expected it to do the Smallville thing). I do agree entirely exploring the effects becoming a spy could have on Chuck is a legitimate, even excellent story idea. But it was drawn out too long, and triangles aspect completely ruined it for me. Pink Slip was a terrible way to start (Sarah calling Chuck “The Lemon” still makes me angrier than almost anything else of that entire season). On that bitter note, I often dismiss the whole front part of the season; although I admit I loved Angel of Death and Operation Awesome. Beard was good except that it fixed nothing. A few other episodes had many good scenes but were ruined by sour endings (Tic Tac being the saddest example, a wonderful episode except for the last 3 minutes).

        As far as Chuck’s growth goes; First Class, Nacho Sampler, and Final Exam could have been good and important episodes, except to me, they are utterly ruined because of the destruction of the primary relationship going on (I know many will disagree with me on Nacho Sampler, its sort of a guilt by association problem with me). If only (if only, if only; the S3 mantra) Sarah had been there for Chuck to help him grow through difficult and painful moments the entire perception of S3 could have been 180 degrees different.

        I’m glad to hear (from yet another source) of CF’s desire to redeem himself. So far, he has done an awesome job of it. The memory of S3 does make me nervous from time to time. But so far S4 (and S3.5 mostly) has been a wonderful thing.

      • JC says:

        I do think another round of PLIs could have worked if they hadn’t done the petite brunette and spy once again. It’s not what I wanted to see but if they were going there again at least change it up.

        But even without other love interests I doubt I would’ve liked it. The main story lines felt patched together and nothing really made sense. I know Chuck isn’t Lost or BSG but when the story doesn’t hold up to even the most basic critique you have a problem.

        As for the trust issue well you can’t lose what you didn’t have. Schwartz burned his bridges with me during the third season of the OC. Fedak reminds me of George Lucas in some ways, great ideas but no concept of continuity or heart.

        @Big Kev

        If that’s true about Fedak, good for him to admit mistakes were made. Although he probably could have saved himself if he hadn’t kept pushing certain issues during interviews.

      • herder says:

        You know I’ve watched the show since the first episode too, the strange thing is that the triangles with Lou, Bryce (the first two times) and even Jill didn’t bother me. By the time we had come to Cole Barker I thought it was too much, I guess I was one of the people who over-reacted in season two as Beefcake was one of my least favorite episodes.

        But bringing back Bryce seemed a bit much even though it did bring resolution to that story. Shaw, and lets face it the only reason Hannah was there was to provide justification for Sarah/Shaw was too much and to boot it was poorly done.

        I can understand Dave’s dislike of the lemon comment and the tossing the phone in the pool and Joe’s dislike of the Shaw/Sarah date in American Hero but for me the worst was the end of Tic Tac as it was so unnecessary to the rest of the episode and it didn’t fit with not only the Sarah that came before (moving so fast)but also the Sarah that came after (Role Models and Suitcase). As far as I can see the whole issue of her moving in with Shaw was simply to up the angst and not consistent with the character, another example of the “what would Chuck do is Sarah did this” school of writing.

      • atcdave says:

        Herder and I are very much on the same page tonight. But not exactly, as I’ve said many times, I simply do not like triangles, and Lou did rub me wrong. I didn’t care so much for Bryce’s first appearance either, but I actually really enjoyed how they used him in Break-Up. Jill struck me as something I just knew they would eventually do, as it worked out I only actively disliked The Ex. Cole was too much, but even so I only disliked him in Beefcake; I thoroughly enjoyed Lethal Weapon.

        So the thing is, although I default to disliking triangles; in the first two seasons I was only really grumpy about it half the time. But Colonel was it; any PLIs for our leads after that point have ZERO entertainment value to me, unless they are completely one sided and played for laughs.

      • JC says:

        Its funny how different things bother people. The last straw for me was the last half of Final Exam and the beginning of Am Hero. The way they wrote Sarah during those scenes literally made my head hurt.The idiot ball was being used to its full effect. I almost quit watching the show before Other Guy aired because by the end of Am Hero I really stopped caring about C&S.

      • Big Kev says:

        Agreed JC. Sometimes it’s as interesting to watch the reactions and psychologies of fans as it is of characters.
        To prove your point, after everything that the writers did to Sarah’s character in the front 13, the single most annoying and damaging scene for me was the Tiffany earrings scene. I could at least justify that Prague/Shaw/Red Test scenes were trying to tackle serious and difficult character issues – but to make Sarah out to be someone flaky enough to keep a gift from someone who tried to kill her and her boyfriend? And to do that amount of damage to a character just for a laugh? Inexcusable to me – but utterly unremarkable to most others. As you say – funny what pushes your buttons!

      • atcdave says:

        That was rock bottom for Sarah Walker (I mean end of Final Exam, start of American Hero). I do agree Big Kev that was an ugly moment. They tried to make a joke of what we were all peeved about, and only made things worse. They really mucked up her character in S3.

      • JC says:

        I totally get why the earrings bothered you, it made Sarah look like an idiot. That’s part of the reason why I hated the whole Red Test situation. Nobody pointing out that the mole was going for his gun bothers me to no end.

      • thinkling says:

        I missed this great discussion, so just a few random thoughts.

        Wow, so many memorable (in the worst possible way) scenes from s3.

        I do think the general story — of Chuck becoming a spy and how to deal with some of the inevitable changes and how to avoid changing his character and how difficult that was for Sarah — was a legitimate one to explore. It could have been used to put a slight pause on the relationship and then bring C/S closer together. Even the red test properly explained and treated could have been interesting. But the fact that it was all a contrivance to do the Interloping Love Interests wasted what could have been a good mini arc.

        Pink Slip was an A2 bomb [atomic angst] of staggering magnitude. They squandered ALL their trust tokens and created a situation that IRL would be all but impossible to recover from. I hated the lemon comment, too, and Sarah’s reactions, but Chuck did leave her on the train station platform. That can’t really be glossed over, so I cut her a little slack at that point. By the end of Three Words, they left a skinny platform for reconciliation which, instead of building on, they continued to erode. (I know I have written comments to try to reconcile the whole thing, to try to live with it all So, I understand the story they were telling, but even at that, it was wasted pain and a poorly told story.)

        It’s a shame that some really good episodes like Angel of Death and Operation Awesome were crippled by such a broken context. The heart of the show was shattered, and nothing could really fix it, so all the episodes suffered. Some episodes that were ruined by a scene or two could have been good. First Class was a good spy ep, but it started the misery arc. Mask could have been good, but b/c of the triangles, was awful in the extreme. Remove a few scenes from Final Exam and American Hero, and they would have been enjoyable.

        We do all have different buttons. For me, I hated Nacho Sampler, b/c it was built on the false premise that Chuck and Manoosh were just alike. They were poles apart, and Sarah’s handling of Chuck after the first 48 hrs was a different case altogether. Manoosh deserved to be burned and hurray for Chuck doing the right thing. They got by with such stupidity, like Manoosh equating (on the treachery scale) selling weapons to the highest bidder to Chuck pretending to be his friend and turning out to be an agent. And Sarah should have been pointing out all these differences. Her reaction to Chuck burning Manoosh was more overblown than his reaction to her shooting Mauser. Here’s what Chuck should have said in the end, “Look, Manoosh, you built a weapon from stolen technology and tried to sell it to the highest bidder. For that you should be in jail for treason. On top of that, you double-crossed some seriously bad people, who will kill you the minute you walk out of here. All things considered, I’d say I’m the best friend you have right now.” It had some hilarious moments, but was ruined to me by its total disingenuousness.

        Contrarily, I really liked Fake Name. It was an episode full of brutal epiphanies for Chuck, who was in desperate need of them. It was well acted by Zach and had some great comedy. I really really really hated Chuck sleeping with Hannah (the make out session would have been enough). But it showed him at the bottom of a slippery slope. His own conscience and Ellie pulled him back up. It was the turn around for him, and we got our Chuck back. The name reveal was senseless, insulting, and so painful for us and Chuck. But it made Chuck realize who his real girl was, that and Sarah’s near death. All of this became a hook for Ellie’s speech later on. As for Sarah, when Sarah is about to make potentially the last movement of her life (an attempt to free herself from Rafe), she is looking at Chuck, not Shaw. This brief moment is huge to me. It is a redeeming moment and an indication of who her heart truly belongs to. When she stands up, she is still looking at Chuck. In spite of our characters being in low places, it was a turning point whose new trajectory continued in Beard. Sarah’s recovery would take much longer.

        So, I hated the whole ear ring scene and also thought it was ridiculous that no one ever pointed out that the mole was going to shoot Chuck. All that (Final Exam) was horribly over-blown and did so much damage to Sarah’s character. You all have said it all.

        So, the angst among fans in s4 I believe is fomented by the fear that we might somehow return to the horror days of s3. After all TPTB have lulled us into a state of euphoria before, only to drop the A bomb. But based on what we’ve seen and what they have said, I think we can finally believe that C/S are a solid couple who will only grow closer and stronger.

      • atcdave says:

        Agree almost entirely Thinkling; only difference being one of those hot button things. The moments about Fake Name that bothered you utterly ruined anything good to me. I completely dislike that episode because of them. I’d like to call it an all time low; but sadly it does have competition in our season of discontent.

      • First Timer says:

        Fake Name is not a good episode. It’s badly crafted in my opinion, but if you like it, well, to each his own.

        But I will disagree with you strongly on one thing, and it is something fans totally and completely miss: Chuck was NOT hurt by the name reveal. He was puzzled only by the name itself. He clearly didn’t expect a name like “Sam.”

        To the writer Ali Adler’s credit, she always kept true to Chuck’s vow in Cougers: He didn’t need to know who Sarah was because he knows who she is. And to this moment, right now in Season 4, TPTB have never had Chuck even once slip. Much to the fans’ frustration, he has never quizzed Sarah about her past again or, as far as we know, tried to find anything out about it.

        But that then becomes the baked-in problem with the name reveal in Fake Name. If it was supposed to substitute for Chuck seeing Sarah and Shaw starting the physical part of their relationship, it is a failure exactly BECAUSE Chuck doesn’t care anymore about Sarah’s past. I thought the piece on the Sarah/Shaw romance explained that flaw brilliantly, but, unfortunately, the stuff no longer seems available on line, so you have to make due with my much less articulate explanation.

      • thinkling says:

        I understand that hot button, Dave. And I know the room cleared when I admitted to liking Fake Name. What can I say. It was a theme worth exploring and exposed the ugliness for what it was — in both camps. Both Chuck and Sarah were living a lie. They both realized it. And Chuck, anyway, began to correct it. It took Sarah a lot longer b/c of the contrived red test baggage.

        You’re right about one thing. S3 is the only race I know of that needs a photo finish for last place.

      • thinkling says:

        @First Timer: Hmm, thanks for that. I never thought of that about the name reveal. He was puzzled. But if not the name, then something got to him. Whatever connection he perceived between Sarah and Shaw in that moment, or the conversation, got to him. The result was that it finally washed over him that Sarah/Sam was his girl. To me that’s the important discovery for him of that moment.

      • jason says:

        I rewatched honeymooners this am, first time this season, I had so much hope that mr and mrs charles would be the focus of the new show, ‘we make a great team’, so many references to vows, and wedding rings, and such – how commited they were to one another, how they talked, how they stood up to beckman, to ellie, how romanitic they were …. what the heck happened????? …. I am so disappointed with how the show is now, how the show re-shawed itself in 3.18 & 3.19, how immature chuck is again in S4, how much forced angst has been introduced more or less into each episode, I forgot how hopeful honeymooners made me feel.

      • atcdave says:

        Honeymooners was sort of a moment of perfection. That is certainly the show I would most want to see. I do think they occasionally need to tackle meatier stories, but I would be happy if 15+ episodes a season looked like Honeymooners.

    • JC says:

      Routh never had chemistry with any of the cast. Watching him and Yvonne try act like they were a couple was painful, all there scenes came off awkward beyond belief. But he also never clicked with Zach or Adam. Compare his interactions to the ones Bomer and Cake had. Its night and day.

      He had the same problems in Superman, his charming came off as creepy.

    • atcdave says:

      I’ve heard many people say that about Superman, But I actually Liked Routh in that. I would have to admit I dreaded his role on Chuck before he ever showed up, but even so he rubbed me wrong every way imaginable. I like to think, even if I don’t like a spoiler, I try to give the writers benefit of the doubt. But S3 went all wrong from the start, and Brandon Routh became the poster child for the season of our discontent.

      • JC says:

        Don’t get me wrong he had some good moments as Superman. Unfortunately like S3 the script was crap and he didn’t have much to work with.

        But there were some moments in Superman like when he’s outside Lois’s window that came off extremely stalker like.

        Some actors and actresses just have charisma to spare, Routh isn’t one them.

      • jason says:

        speaking of superman, just watched smallville from last night, geez they keep hitting it out of the park each week in season 10, awesome, no ff moments whatsoever, none …

        I really disliked routh even on interviews b4 he showed up, but I would say, he would have been really funny as written, only totally inept at EVERYTHING, his deadpan style is funny, had he pursued sarah with the safest man line and failed, the desert line and failed, forced her to go on a mission with him in 9 and got hit, tried to assasinate chuck at the end of 9 and had casey kncok him cold, etc, etc, and had pi$$ed off sarah even more than usual floating around, mad that inept shaw was pursuing her and mad that capable carmicheal was being an idiot, the whole thing would have been plausable & probably could have drug out those 4 or 5 episodes without embarrassing the writing staff, actors, and creative team as they did, but I cannot think of an actor less capable of playing a leading man than he, he was repulsive

    • joe says:

      Amrit, your mom is a very perceptive person! 😉

      • Amrit says:

        Yeah as Zach said at comic con “the love is always there” he may have been joking, but you take 3 seasons and put them together you begin to see the pattern, you look at season 4 and it is the same, sarah gives herself and her heart 100% to chuck. Now I do not know how this can be so obvious that I missed it and got frustrated by parts of season 3. But my mom also read interviews by the cast and she said that the girl who plays sarah always says that she looks forward to chuck and sarah together being spies and living a normal life. She said deep down that she got the impression that yvonne is a shipper and really wants chuck and sarah together and it tells on screen, so maybe it was hard for to emote anything towards other pli’s like shaw. In my opinion not my mom’s but mine I think looking at comic con 10 this story got to the actors as well in season 3, they will never say it but the looks on all the actors faces about the shaw arc said it all and zach refused to even defend it and just said “josh”. I must admit looking at yvonne in interviews lately she seems really happy with where this is all going and we are seeing in her perfomance she looks reinvigorated, maybe it was not just the fans who wanted this and they should just gone for it in the first place!

      • thinkling says:

        It would have to get old playing out all that angst. Yvonne has so much more to offer, and her broader range of talents is finally being used. Even though there are tense moments, the mood is so much happier. It’s just such a relief. It would have to be for them, too, … especially Yvonne.

        And you’re right, the love was always there. I can find it in every episode, but it is so occluded behind the dark story and the angst and the PLI mess. Well, let’s not ever do that again. I like s4, and I don’t ever want to go back to anything less.

      • atcdave says:

        If I remember, at one point Yvonne had said she wanted Sarah to have an outside relationship because it would be different and interesting. But my guess is, she didn’t enjoy being away from the main cast so much, and she likely heard from plenty of unhappy fans. By the way, she said that well before Colonel, I’m not sure if she realized how many fans viewed that as a game changer.

        But she sure does seem happier this season in interviews, that has to be good.

      • First Timer says:

        The FANS did not say Colonel was a game changer. The SHOWRUNNERS said that. We were TOLD Colonel changed things forever. Then they just ignored that.

        I would have to agree with folks like Ernie Davis and Liz James that the original Chuck show largely ended at Colonel and that Ring starts a different Chuck show. It’s actually easier to reconcile what’s happened SINCE Colonel to make that assumption. Otherwise, you always end up metaphorically shaking your fist at Season 3!

      • atcdave says:

        I’m happy to keep shaking my fist at S3. I actually think it’s important to not forget what was done, and for TPTB not to forget how it was received.

        And i’d add Colonel was a game changer according to most everyone at the time. I’ve talked to casual fans who love the show and especially that episode gush over how excited they were that Chuck wasn’t like everything else because they’d actually done something fun and different. Of course none of those viewers made it through S3.
        First Timer I imagine you’re thinking of that Fedak quote where he used those exact words to describe the episode shortly before it aired. Then in S3 we learned Fedak didn’t know what the term “game changer” meant.

      • First Timer says:

        Yes, that was the quote I was referring to. My point was that the showrunners TOLD us before Colonel aired that it was a game changer. I believe Fedak also called it a point of no return. So my contention is that it wasn’t FAN perception about Colonel. We were TOLD to think that way.

        That is a qualitative difference, at least to me. We fans can think what we want and the showrunners can claim that we might have misread their intentions. But there is NO WAY to misinterpret what happened in Colonel because the showrunners TOLD us the situation had changed.

        As for Season 3, well, you know, I am fascinated by the reaction to it. I would suggest the honest critics changed their minds along the way. Fans like you and Liz James were screaming phony from the beginning moments of Pink Slip. And the Ernie Davis admit that they can “enjoy” it only by lowering expectations.

        Me, I’m with you. It stank from the very first moment. And not just because it took back/ignored Colonel. It just wasn’t well written. I STILL have no idea about what the showrunners thought they were showing us with the Shaw character. And they have NEVER explained why, even if you take everything at face value, Sarah would choose Shaw over a “damaged” Chuck. Even if Chuck was out of control for a while and had killed the mole and had “changed,” he still was presented as a more palatable choice than Shaw.

        Oddly, though, living through Season 3 actually has me expecting something intriguing for the Volkoff arc. Just like Sarah never said she hated spying in Pink Slip even though we thought we heard that, Orion NEVER said he was searching for Mama B. In fact, everything he DID say indicates he was working for/with her on something big, something 20 years in length. That’s why I won’t take any of this at face value. The showrunners are threading a needle here and we don’t know everything yet. Which is why I don’t assume Dalton is playing the “real” Volkoff or that Volkoff is the big bad…

      • atcdave says:

        Good point about the merits of a damaged Chuck vs. Any form of Shaw!

      • Amrit says:

        I think that the point of early season 3 is the same point my mom made about the intimacy and kissing, with chuck it is different to the rest on sarah’s part. Why could she be with shaw and not chuck the agent and killer? simple with shaw she will be in a relationship with him, but is will be about missions, it will be temporary, it will be superficial, she will never get hurt because she will never ever truely give herself to him. With chuck it is different, and different in a good way, she wanted her chuck and was not willing to settle for anyting less, I think if casey never told her and she did settle for a killer chuck the relationship would never of lasted because deep down she would have to look at a man everyday that she destroyed. With chuck she is going to give her heart to, she will give up everything, run away with him, want to be married and have children, it is long term. Why shaw and not chuck? she simply loves chuch and not shaw?

        Now the problem with season 3, the early part is that it was a good idea, I do not think that swartz and fedak had a bad idea, the problem was that shaw was so bad, I mean so bad. Have you seen the episode of criminal minds where a girl is mentally always like a child and she kidnaps young women and dresses them like dolls, and injects them with paralysis drugs to keep them still and pretty the whole time. That is what shaw did to sarah, she was paralysed and she may have looked functional and pretty, but her character was dieing inside and that was a step too far, TPTB tried to make a point about what true love is in the end of the day, but the cost was the sarah character, and she was dieing episode by episode and that price was way too high. Could they ever do a pli again, never, they have burned that bridge, chuck and sarah will be together too the end, and in a weird way we have shaw to thank for that. BTW chuck and hannah looked great, now that is a relationship you could have done for 8 episodes that would not have killed chucks character.

      • Amrit says:

        And too be fair to the powers that be, they have not put yvonne in scenes without zach and adam. The three have a great chemistry together and you seen yvonnes best work with them as well as josh gomez. They have learned and will not do that again ever. This season if yvonne is with anyone else apart of zach, she will be with adam or adam and josh, they will never veer away from that again and good on them!

      • atcdave says:

        I disagree a little Amrit. Given that Hannah was a distraction, it never mattered to me how “good” a match she might have been for Chuck; she was a distraction, period. I really don’t like distractions. And I do adore Sarah Walker. So I (and I’m sure many others) would simply never have accepted another distraction no matter how differently it might have been written. The fans knew Colonel HAD to be the end of it (and as First Timer mentioned above, TPTB had actually TOLD us Colonel was the “game changer.”).
        The problems with S3 really started right from Pink Slip. One viewer I know quit watching when Sarah threw her phone in the pool and never looked back; it was distasteful, heartbreaking, and not the character we had known for two seasons; game over. For myself I was outraged by “The Lemon” comment. It was petty, vicious, and beneath the character I had known for two seasons (notice a theme here?). I know not everyone hated Pink Slip the way I did. But the TPTB burned almost all their good will with me right from 3.01; and I remained largely disgruntled for a long time.

      • Amrit says:

        what I mean is that I could believe why hannah was attracted to chuck and vice versa but I did not see for one second why sarah would be attracted to shaw. With chuck and hannah, they had a good verve going on, their conversations flowed, they had something in common since they were both computer geniuses. Also there was chemistry, not to be honest I could have stomached 8 episodes of hannah and chuck instead of shaw and sarah. I mean I felt like vomiting, watching sarah and shaw, with hannah and chuck I felt ok. That can be the problem with the show being about chuck, it is mostly concentrated about his journey, if he had that relationship and was happy, then what learning experience would he get. I will agree with dan fienberg though, chuck giving up hannah was far more romantic and a bigger sacrifice then sarah giving up shaw, simply because chuck left a desirable and acceptable relationship, sarah left behind and manequine.

      • Amrit says:

        oh and about hannah being a distraction, well that is the problem with zach levi and women, lol. He has so much chemistry that if they played that to it’s potential it could have been something really good, and would have enraged fans all the more, it was badly done, their was 3 episodes of great build up and then they pulled the plug at the last minute because they had to contrive a story. I mean when has chuck ever treated a girl like a 1 night stand? because they got the pacing wrong they destroyed a good character and damaged chuck’s character a little bit as well. It is the past, so whatever.

      • atcdave says:

        Okay I agree with you a little more this time! Its easy to believe Hannah could have been good for Chuck, its only because of where the show was (and where I THOUGHT the characters were) that she became so distasteful. I liked her better than Lou (I know, blasphemy in some circles!), had she arrived earlier on I might have felt no ill will towards her at all.

        And yeah, Yvonne and Routh, no chemistry at all. Shaw was an entertainment disaster.

      • JC says:


        I’m curious don’t you think Lou was necessary for Chuck’s growth? After Sarah’s rejection it would have looked bad if hadn’t tried to move on.

      • atcdave says:

        Possibly JC, perhaps that would have been a good place for Hannah. But I just didn’t like Lou; she exuded trouble, in a way that turns me off.
        As I’ve said, I don’t like triangles, which is what that was (Sarah loves Chuck but can’t admit it, Chuck loves Sarah but gets rebuffed so he tries to move on: BORING). I hadn’t figured out by episode 1.07 that this show had teen angst in its DNA. I don’t particularly see why anyone feels compelled to “move on” within minutes of a rejection; it simply strikes me as exploitive to try to “get over” someone you care for by getting involved with someone else.

        I do accept a valuable lesson was learned: as long as Chuck has to live a double life it is foolish for him to get involved with a civilian he will just have to lie to (especially while he’s still actually in love with his handler who he won’t be escaping from anytime soon). Pity he forgot ALL ASPECTS of that lesson when Hannah did come along later.

      • JC says:

        I admit I’m biased when it comes to Lou because of Rachel Bilson. I loved her on the OC and I got to meet her once. Total sweetheart and one of the nicest people I’ve ever met.

      • atcdave says:

        I know JC, I’ve run into that before when criticizing Lou! Rachel Bilson seems to have quite the following. I was actually surprised we didn’t see more of that with Kristin Krueck; but I wasn’t the only one sick of triangles by that point!

        You know I mean nothing personal against the lady (I mean the actress); but I didn’t find the potty mouth cute, I didn’t like her eagerness to get involved with a guy who JUST dumped his girlfriend, and I was creeped out by her previous taste men. So I was just happy to see Lou gone. I think I would have been more sympathetic towards Chuck if Hannah had been in her place.

        It is funny how perceptions (and taste in women!) vary.

      • Amrit says:

        I think hannah served a dual purpose, the first being that chuck is still chuck, she was attracted to a guy who was sweet and charming and funny and could be herself with her. The second part was to show how far chuck had changed from the man she met on a plane because of the spy life and it kind of made him realise what sarah’s beef was all along. I think the show runners tried to use hannah to show that yes he is still our chuck, he will never lose that , people will always outside of the spy world see that side of him, but it was at a point in the season where chuck had to realise what exactly he had to do to fix his relationship with sarah. Plus what sarah said in the hotel room.

      • thinkling says:

        @Dave: My son watched Pink Slip before me. I knew it was going to be really bad when he flat out refused to rewatch it with me. On some levels “Chuck” never recovered from it. It sure took me a while. And just reading the fear in the comments after 4.06, it’s obvious we’re still feeling the effects from the fallout of s3, the fallout being lack of trust for the story tellers.

      • jason says:

        @think – no – no – no – you really don’t get my issue with 4.6 – I have no FEAR of about the show going forward & I have complete TRUST in TPTB – I trust that CS will continue to have the written story be told in such a manner that CS will be kept apart while openly and honestly in love, what I was after 4.6 was ANGRY, angry that indeed I was not going to get a season of CS together as spies.

        TPTB have a choice of how they will tell the story, and I have complete confidence that no win situations will abound in the future for CS. But the thing that really irritates me, is how the honeymooners, the ring 2, the multiple references to engagement and marriage in season 4’s love season, are going to be used as this season’s angst generator.

        I came into this season not needing chuck and sarah engaged, but the writers made me want it, now I trust they will dangle it out there and keep taking it away, just like they did the CS as a couple for the first 2 seasons, before they decided to ruin an entire arc with the Shaw misery arc. The problem I see with season 4, I do fear that we will not get a joyful back arc, just 24 episodes of the same.

        But, CS more or less will be together, and will be on missions off and on, and that is the show we have, fearful, no, angry about it, you bet!@#$%^&*!

      • Amrit says:

        It is kind of a shame that fans are still concerned about the future direction of this season or series based on season 3.1. I know it bombed, well actually only chuck and sarah aspect bombed, the producers have kind of apologised (“we’ve learned, chuck and sarah have an undeniable chemistry ……”) they promised that this season you will be happy. Chris Fedak has been quoted as saying that once they put chuck and sarah together would not split them up. I think fans, well let me phrase this correctly, fans can do and think what they want, but I do hope that they can let season 3 issues go until the show does something contrived. The one good thing that the writers have done is that they have given sarah a lot more dialogue this season then ever before, she has said I love you every episode until episode 5, she has moved her entire life into chuck’s home, she has told chuck that she will always love him no matter what and that she wants to marry him. So whatever happens this season, please keep that in mind going forward, no matter happens it will be ok. Oh and fans who keep wanting chuck and sarah to throw morgan out of the apartment, sarah kind of understands that chuck and morgan complete each other in a way, she will not throw him out, who is going to cook and clean?

      • thinkling says:

        @Jason: Oh my. All my remarks about angst and fear and trust were general and not directed at you, Jason. I’m sorry you felt singled out.

        I do get, I think, your beef. That even with C/S together, we’re still not getting them on screen a lot as a super spy couple, but that in some way, they are still using the relationship for drama and still, on some level, keeping them apart. That’s the way they like to tell the story, and you hate that.

        I would by far prefer C/S against the world and have angst kept farther from the central relationship. But so far, at least, it doesn’t bother me as much as it does you.

        But I think, even besides you, there is angst and fear of angst in the air among a lot of fans in general. There is still an uneasiness about the future and it’s a result of the trust issues created in s3.

      • thinkling says:

        @Amrit: Good word!

        The one good thing that the writers have done is that they have given Sarah a lot more dialogue this season then ever before, she has said I love you every episode until episode 5, she has moved her entire life into Chuck’s home, she has told chuck that she will always love him no matter what and that she wants to marry him. So whatever happens this season, please keep that in mind going forward, no matter happens it will be ok.

        Can we put that on a bill board somewhere? That is my position, though still with just a shadow of caution. I think that’s what I meant when I said But based on what we’ve seen and what they have said, I think we can finally believe that C/S are a solid couple who will only grow closer and stronger. But you said it better.

      • jason says:

        It really isn’t about the repulsive misery arc, because with a well crafted prelouge, 3.14 could be the followup to 2.22, and still ep 4×6’s end would have me screaming ‘shenanigans’.

        Amrit – I agree – sarah – short of her carrying around a kite trailing her up in the air whereever she goes with the words I love chuck on them – what more can she do than she has done in season 4? I think we are going to find out actually …

        But the word rogue seems to have replaced the word LI as a reason for CS to be apart and I am pretty sure TPTB can dream up plenty of other ones. There is nothing wrong with this in theory, I just need to realize the show chuck is a relational tween angst series that advertises itself as a comedy, or a drama, or a spy show, or ?

        I submit to all of you, the show needs CS as a couple together to anchor all of these other genre’s it tries to be, and needs to leave the tween angst banner at the door.

        But, one thing I am openly admitting I would be wrong about, if the show engages cs at 4×10 or 4×13 and marries them at 4×24, I would say the timing is perfect. I am simply guessing that would not be the case, based on the misery arc, and on the other season’s track record, including how season 4 has been crafted. I do FEAR that will not be the case because I do not TRUST TPTB to quit dangling the tween angst out there, so think and amrit, you may indeed be right about my position being about those words.

      • First Timer says:

        You wrote:
        The show needs CS as a couple together to anchor all of these other genres it tries to be, and needs to leave the tween angst banner at the door.


        Unfortunately, the show runners (and I suspect Schwartz in particular) simply does not see it that way. He has specialized in teen soapers. It’s what he knows.

        You can actually draw the dividing line at two episodes: Role Models and Suitcase. Role Models presented us Chuck and Sarah as the CIA’s new paradigm of a spy couple. Suitcase was an hour of agita over whether Sarah would unpack.

        Most of us, I suspect, want the Chuck and Sarah the showrunners posited in Role Models: smart, mutally affectionate, with complementary spy skills. The showrunners apparently can’t get enough of the Chuck and Sarah posited in Suitcase: immature, frightened, emotional teenagers.

        Too bad, really. Because when you can write dialogue like “You’re my home Chuck. You always have been,” well, there is the potential for a great spy show written around a great spy couple.

        Most astonishing of all: how little on-screen Chuck-Sarah together spy time there has been since the end of Other Guy. The one thing most of the fans WANT to see, the good, tight, spy couple working together, is the one thing we almost never get.

        We want Hart to Hart meets I Spy. They give us Get Smart meets The OC.

      • atcdave says:

        Jason and First Timer, good comments. I think a lot of our content or discontent this season has to do with our acceptance of what we now see the show to be. I’ve said many times I want to see Chuck and Sarah vs. the world as the main theme; obviously many fans agree. But I have changed (okay lowered) my expectations some with the realization they will always play stupid angst games. I can laugh along as long as its played for fun like it has been. But it isn’t quite what I would prefer to see. I still have some hopes for a more mature relationship; but my fear is TPTB see that only as an end game for the show. While, as First Timer said, I had once had such high hopes for a modern spin on Hart to Hart meets I Spy.

  15. joe says:

    This is only scant seconds of new stuff, but boy, it it fun!

  16. thinkling says:

    This promo of Fear of Death has a few seconds I hadn’t seen, yet, too. The links I had here quit working, so I found it on youtube.

  17. andyt says:

    Hello all,
    I have not commented much this season because I have been busy with work and this season is just a blast that I do not feel a need to comment much.

    However, I had a thought about the relationship between MEB and Volkoff. Some have speculated that they have a business relationship, or a “romantic” relationship, but what if they are FAMILY? Yes, I know it is a wild thought but what if they are brother and sister. It could make sense, he wanted her back twenty years ago to help run the family business(while she had been a deep cover KGB mole). This would fit the “family” theme that TPTB have molded for the season, and also the fact that he is coming to after Thanksgiving dinner. Further, it would push the “Alias” allusions that they have been using this year. Just wild speculation fire away.

    • atcdave says:

      That does have some potential Andy, we’ve kicked it around some; but we’re pretty sure CF said Volkoff was not related to Chuck. It’s really hard to imagine what the relationship might be then without getting too sordid.

      • Amrit says:

        If they were family then would it not have been tough for, wait ellie was about 11-12 when she left, anyway it would have been tough for mama b to hide her kids for 12 years from her brother or cousing or whatever. The most likely scenario would be that mama b was a cia agent who one day went for an undercover mission and it turned bad, something went wrong and she had to abandon her family. What that reason is, we will not know until later. But I do get worried when it comes to chuck (the series) and wrapping up these storylines in an effective way. Maybe the new writers are better at wrapping up stories then the old ones, they are currently suffering from the same mishaps from the last 3 seasons, for example in season 2 in breakup they decided to cool off chuck and sarah and then the next episode in cougars it was back on. This season the buymore is cia, after one or two episodes all the agents have gone and it is run by jeff and lester, I mean what?

  18. Tamara Burks says:

    BTW, ya’ll. It’s Monday!!!!

    True it isn’t even daylight yet but still Monday.

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