Chuck vs. The Morgansect

Seven Times Out Of Ten It Amounts To Nothing. Maybe Six

There has been a great discussion going on in the Spoiler Page for S5 (see the link in the menu bar above) about the so-called “Morgansect”. The fan reactions (is that the right word to use before any fan has seen an episode?) has been a bit – intense.


If you have been hibernating for the last four years and are new to Chuck, or if you decided to take the summer off to recharge your Intersect, you may want to know that “Morgansect” is the fan-coined term d’art for the concept of Morgan Grimes having the Intersect in his head, which is where we left Season 4. Some fans don’t like the idea at all.

Chuck is supposed to be the special one! Stephen told him so, and that’s what he’s been to us for all this time. So now, all of a sudden, he’s not special? Any Tom, Dick or Morgan can be the Intersect??? If your going to go that route, why not Jeff and/or Lester, then? Hum?

The shouts of “sacrilege” ring out! Torches! Pitchforks! “Remember the Name-Reveal!”

Naw. It hasn’t been quite so bad as that, but there has been a slight hint in the fans reaction that TPTB are now required to tread a bit carefully here. Many fans will be watching and waiting to see how badly their universe has been up-ended, and hoping it will be only a little and not for very long.

For myself, I’m not particularly worried. The show has gone out on these kinds of limbs before and (almost) always done the right thing. If you’ve ever done a marathon viewing, or even just seen a number of episodes that cover such an area of concern in a short period of time, you probably realize that most of those trouble spots are usually resolved rather quickly. It’s often been something external (like the Olympics or a writer’s strike) putting weeks between episodes that make it seem like they go on past the point of endurance. Indeed, sometimes it’s the fan themselves who work themselves into a froth – we are an engaged bunch, after all. We’re involved and we care.

Ultimately, I can’t minimize it. There have been fans who stopped watching the show because an arc went unresolved too long, or because the lack of resolution didn’t square with our own concept of the character’s constitution. It seems a shame.

It also seems a little inevitable, because we, and the characters, grow and change. It’s hard to accept that sometimes, when you love what you started with.

What I gather from the discussion so far is that most all the fans are still excited about what’s coming is just a week and expecting to groan a little as Morgan makes a mess of things. They also expect it to work out in the end in ways they can’t imagine just yet.

The fans are hoping the ride will be worth it once again, and are just nervous enough about it to be crossing their fingers for good luck.

Thanks to Faith, we’ve seen some of the promos and the premise looks promising to me. The idea that Chuck without the Intersect is every bit as much of a hero as Chuck with the Intersect is one that I find appealing, and I’m looking forward to hearing Sarah say as much.

So with fair warning that this discussion might creep over into spoiler territory, have at it. Tell us, please, what you think of this idea, that at least for now, Morgan is The Intersect. Can it work? Do you trust TPTB enough to give it a go, or is that a dumb question?

– joe

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About joe

In my life I've been a professor, martial artist, rock 'n roller, rocket scientist, lover, poet and brain surgeon. I'm lying about the brain surgery.
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182 Responses to Chuck vs. The Morgansect

  1. atcDave says:

    Well, I think my opinion is pretty well on record. But I’ll say it again here; my biggest concern is just that I’m jealous of Chuck/Sarah screen time. I feel like Morgan gets more screen time than I want him to anyway, and Morgansect can only make this problem worse. It also undermines some of what we’ve previously been told about how special Chuck was. Remember The Suburbs? At one point it seemed Chuck was the only person who could download the Intersect without going nuts. Now to be fair, the 2.0 seems to have had expectations that far more people could use it; and after Ellie apparently fixed some memory usage problems perhaps its more accessible to the masses than ever.

    But so much for concerns. I think this ranks as the smallest off-season todo yet. Obviously its not even close the dreaded “love trapezoid” between S2 and S3. Really, to me, its even a smaller issue than “lying Chuck” was back last break. So I’m feeling very good about things. I hope Morgansect comes to an end quickly; but its not too big a deal to me. I am ready and eager to see Chuck, Sarah, and the usual gang of idiots back in action. Bring on season 5!

    • joe says:

      That’s a major point, Dave. I didn’t realize it before, but I learned it this month finishing my Season 4 marathon.

      As great as S4 was (and trust me, I thought a number of episodes were just stunning!), there were several that I had a hard time getting to. It was like I felt no urgency to see Family Volkoff or Muuurder or even Masquerade again.

      Took me a while, but I know now that it was because these were the episodes that did not explicitly feature Chuck & Sarah together. They were there, on screen (and Chuck was front and center on Muuuder, actually). But the relationship was not.

      I am so addicted to Charah that everything else seemed secondary (and isn’t that the definition of a ‘shipper)! Mistake, of course. When I did get to watching those episodes, they were wonderful. The humor was fantastic, Timothy Dalton was absolutely amazing and each was a joy to rewatch.

      They are great, but for reasons that are very different from the reasons I got hooked way back in S2. Now that Chuck & Sarah are together those other reasons will have to swim in that sea.

      • atcDave says:

        Well, you know Joe Charah is massively important to me. Probably a big part of why I found S4 so satisfying. But the episodes that left me flat were probably Anniversary and Gobbler. I didn’t hate a single S4 episode, but those are the two I like the least.

  2. Faith says:

    I trust TPTB to give it a go, but I question their mentality in even going for this endeavor. Do I want Chuck to be a hero without a cape? I admit the idea is intriguing but why, why must the cape go to Morgan? I don’t know if you guys remember but awhile back we all joked that their jump the shark moment would be to put the intersect into Casey and Sarah. It’s not so funny now but I’m thinking even that would have been preferable.

    Having said that I’m really more worried about what this will do to the spirit of the remaining fans. Yes in theory we would all stick around through thick and thin but that’s not always the case and if we’re having to suffer through 3 episodes of the dregs of Morgansect, that might be too much. But, and this is a big but, it goes back to the same ‘ol, same ‘ol. It’s their story to tell and in this, the final season we must (more than any other year) let them tell it. Who knows, maybe even this will birth an epic balanced season, the likes of which we haven’t seen since season 2. Not to say that I haven’t enjoyed the last two, you all know how I feel about them, but I do think this is the year (and I have a wager with Big Kev ;)) we return to the multi-faceted Chuck that excels in all themes; this will be an epic closing journey (for all). I just have to be patient, *headdesk*

    • joe says:

      So well put, Faith. “Superman without a cape” – that captures the idea perfectly. Do we want that???

      More than usual, the answer seems to be both “no” and “why not?” at the same time. Very weird!

  3. armysfc says:

    i’m in the same camp as Faith. will it all work out in the end, most likely. will the mess morgan having the intersect creates be worth the twist they say is coming? time will tell. from the vids faith provided and the articles others have provided the first three will be morgan heavy. will fans accept that morgan goes on missions and dances with sarah while chuck is where? how many people said they want to sarah and chuck working side by side solving cases? many from the posts here. from one of the vids we see morgan acting like a tool towards chuck. how much of that will you see?

    it was bad enough they gave it to morgan, now they have him acting like a bigger fool. they may have put the emotional angst between c/s to bed but it seems like its now between c/m. which i ask the same as Faith, why?

    when a reviewer worries about a divide three episodes will cause between fans and then says be patient a good thing is coming doesn’t sound like a good thing to me. to me it seems a fool hardy decision they intend to follow through on. but as i said it will most likely work out but before how much more damage does it cause with the remaining fans?

    • joe says:

      Like so many today, army (me included), you’re asking a lot of questions. That’s where the fans are, I see. Lots of questions, very few answers.

      It is, perhaps, where we should be one week from the season premier.

  4. A lot of people focus on the “Chuck is special” comment and think any other Human Intersect contradicts that idea. Chuck was special because he could handle it better, not because he was the only one. We have only seen two successful Human Intersects without side effects: Stephan and Chuck Bartowski. Nothing in the show has contradicted that. Also people get hung up on how Intersect 2.0 is different than 1.0. By my count, there have been 16 Intersect related devices (tower computers, glasses, laptops, and psp’s). Each one behaves differently because the devices were developed by different people and because the technology is always evolving. Fulcrum prototypes are the only ones known to kill people (except when booby-trapped with Trojan Horse Ciphers, of course).

    When Chuck’s Intersect was suppressed last season, I heard a lot of people say they want to see Chuck be a good spy without the Intersect. We’re going to get that chance. Sounds good to me.

    A bigger issue is a lot of people simply don’t like Morgan. After four seasons, it’ll be hard to change those people’s minds. That’s a shame. I think he’s the best comic relief in the show that isn’t always creepy. With the Morgansect, we could be getting a funnier version of the beginning of season 3, without the Charah angst and the CIA management shake-up stupidity. Throw in Charah being open with their feelins and Trinity as a PLI for Casey (I’m thinking Undercover Lover mixed with Seduction Impossible), what’s not to like?

    • ChuckFan says:

      Hear, hear! I love this show! I love the comedy, and I do not get upset when there is a good balance between comedy, action, drama, geekyness, and romance. The romance is an important aspect of the show, but it is not the only aspect of the show. Give the little bearded man a break!

    • atcDave says:

      Funny thing is, every time this topic comes up I keep thinking of “Chuck vs All the Intersects.”

      • Thanks for remembering. When I saw the spoiler for Morgan getting the Intersect on the morning of “Chuck vs. the Cliffhanger”, I thought “uh oh” and did a Google search for Morgan Intersect. My story was 2nd. I just checked and it has (fortunately) dropped to the last link on the second page. That’s fine by me because with it hidden on the second page, I feel less like I should rewrite that story and make it better.

        The interesting thing about that story was the strong negative reaction I got from some reviewers simply because I gave somebody other than Chuck the Intersect. (***spoiler: I gave it to almost everybody***.) The readers weren’t patient enough to realize the point of the story was just because someone can download it, doesn’t mean it will work well. I intentionally didn’t have it go badly for Ellie, because she is a Bartowski. Her dad and brother could handle it, so why not her.

        I would how Chuck fandom would react if Ellie got the Intersect?

      • armysfc says:

        way better than morgan i would bet!

      • Amron says:

        And that’s a good moral: wait to see the big picture before make assumptions.

      • armysfc says:

        Amron good point but remember they used that wait and see the big picture once before and look what happened. i believe some viewers are still gun shy. me on the other hand feel the only good morgan is a dead or missing one so any more time or importance of him is not well received. just having him in a scene is enough to drag it down. again that’s just me, but i have the feeling there are others.

      • atcDave says:

        Gun shy is certainly part of the issue. I remember well in the run-up to S3 trying so hard to give it a chance, even if that involved ignoring virtually every single spoiler we had seen. And then so much of it was worse than I even feared and it dragged on and on and on…

        But this time isn’t nearly so bad. I see no reason to think they’re going to actually ruin my favorite part of the show, and many of the clips and spoilers we’ve seen are actually very funny. I really think the worst of it will just be Morgan getting too much screen time. And it also sounds like the problem may be fixed fairly early on. really, I expect to be pleased with the result.

      • Amron says:

        Yeah, well… the thing is that I hadn’t have to wait and see before: I came into the “Live” fandom at S4. I was fortunate (or not?) to watch S1 to S3 with no break, so it worked for me. In fact, it kind of shocked me when I discovered that the show was on the bubble (at one point, I thought the show was very popular, because its good premise and buzz on Internet) and the S3 discomfort. Perhaps part of why I don’t hate it it’s exactly because I hadn’t annoying pauses and annoying cliffhangers for what I could read, some people where against Chuck-Fu too, not only the Morgansect… And that’s bring us another moral: Intersect 2.0 is just troubles, jeje!

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Amron I still don’t particularly like the 2.0. Its just the Kung-Fu crutch. I would much rather just see Chuck use his brains. So that may be a very good parallel for Morgansect. I have enjoyed all of S4 both with and without the 2.0; I should be able to do the same with Morgansect, whether I think its actually a good idea or not.

      • armysfc says:

        dave speaking in broad terms here. there are probably a lot of fans that feel leave the charah alone and all is good. there are others that want to see more than just that. one thing that bodes well for anti morgansect people is they seem to have backed off the earlier idea that he would have it all or most of year. thats what i remember being said after the crap hit the fan after the season 4 finale.

      • atcDave says:

        I would want a little more than just leaving Charah alone, but that is a good start. I do think you’re exactly right about the longevity of Morgansect; right after S4 they were clearly talking about a whole season of it, now it sounds like it may be over by 5.03. If so, that would be an excellent example of TPTB listening to their fans.

      • armysfc says:

        Dave, i agree. i think it hit them hard the days after the finale with the reactions they got. fedak loves gomez and said it did it for him, to give him more time. just like how they underestimated the fans love of sarah, i think they over estimated the fans love of morgan.

      • atcDave says:

        I think (and hope!) that’s right army. As I was saying elsewhere, Morgan may be more popular among casual viewers, but I suspect even they would get tired of too much of him. Hopefully they will balance this out well and restore the dynamic we are hoping for.

        I do feel a little bad for Josh Gomez in all of this. I certainly have nothing against him I don’t actually hate Morgan. I’ll take it a step further and say I often find Morgan very funny. I just don’t want too much Morgan (as in, any more than we’ve been getting!)

      • armysfc says:

        i’m a big believer in trends, mostly are sports related. it seems to me that if after an episode airs and a vast majority ( i figured around 70%) don’t like an idea after it airs some of that would translate to the casual fan. that was from all the blogs and sites i go to, not just here. i would guess about 50% like morgan. while i hate him he does have his moments, like in phase three, an episode i hated but liked the morgan parts, go figure? when he gets involved in their life is where he fails to me or screws around like in cliff hanger or the sexting. i can tolerate him in small doses but i fear the first three will be past that mark.

    • joe says:

      Now you got me counting all the Intersects!

      Chuck,
      Stephen,
      Manoosh (Nacho Sampler)
      Shaw
      GRETA Cptn. Richard Noble
      GRETA Cptn. Victoria Dunberry
      Hartley/Alexei Volkoff
      Morgan

      and almost Bryce. Did I miss any? That doesn’t even count the few that Fulcrum tried to make; the ones who went insane or exploded.

  5. amyabn says:

    I’m cautiously optimistic. I share the reservations most of you have with Morgan. I think Schwedak gets blinded by their love of the bromance and until recently didn’t seem to grasp how much the fans love Sarah and Charah. Morgan, to me, is best utilized as the Alfred to Chuck’s Batman. I thought he was great in Agent X, helping Chuck demonstrate as well as getting the “tools to fix computers.” I cringe at extended scenes like the yoga seal of Push Mix. I also didn’t enjoy his extended “how am I going to take out the CIA guy watching me” schtick in Cliffhanger.
    I’m sticking with it, no matter what, but I hope that we are all making much out of nothing. Here’s to hoping!

  6. uplink2 says:

    Well like Dave my views on this subject have been pretty open from the beginning. To follow another well known blogger when I saw the big Cliffhanger I also gave it a big fat zero. While I like the idea of Chuck without the Intersect and being forced to use what I like most about his character, his brain, I really see no reason to give it to Morgan except as a comic relief and that to me trivializes some very central themes to the show. Chuck is special, he adds heart to the Interesect, he can handle the Intersect like no one else can, he uses it to help him think out of the box. His courage is always there but it is laced with his smarts. Morgan doesn’t have the smarts or the humanity to handle it and will undoubtedly get into scrapes that will most likeky endanger himself, his team or civilians. Ultimately I think it is simply a gimmick much like the trapezoid though nowhere nears as offensive as that was. Its just lazy writing.

    I also agree with Dave in that I don’t want even one frame of Sarah or more likely Casey’s screen time being given over to who I view as the sixth most important character on the show. Morgan made great strides in season 3 and 4 but to me I’m fine with where he is. No more screen time please. If any of the co-stars need more screen time its Ellie not Morgan.

    I also believe that there is a definite plan to what is being released and what pics and spoilers we have seen so far. All of the 5.02 pics are of the big three. Most of the other unofficial pics have featured Sarah and if Morgan was there so was she. I also think that the 3 episode screeners that were sent out were to address the backlash that this idea has gotten. The screeners remind me of the leaks from season 3 about Honeymooners. They know that a significant element of the fanbase reacted very poorly to this idea when it came up at the finale. They are trying to manage the damage and get people to give it a chance. I suppose that’s smart from their perspective. Of course the smarter thing to have done was to have rejected this stupid idea in the first place.

    But one thing that does intrigue me about the recent spoiler concerning a possible character death is it goes back to a post I made on this blog back in June I believe. If the show is actually Chuck that Ausiello is talking about then it fits into my proposal that to really make this story work as a serious element of the mythology of the show and not just as a trivialization of the mythology for comic relief then Morgan Grimes must die. It is the only thing I can see that maintains the mythology of the Intersect, Chuck being so special etc. If Morgan Grimes can handle the Intersect then anyone can. Therefore it is no longer remarkable and neither is Chuck. In a season 1 formula if anyone other than Chuck had gotten the Intersect they would have been bunkered, captured or more likely killed. He and only he made it work. Why is it so different now?

    Ultimately for me in these last precious 13 and I’m still holding out hope for a #1 in its timeslot rating getting it a back 9, I want the focus to be on what made me fall in love with the show and none of that involved Morgan Grimes. It was Sarah Walker, Chuck and Sarah together and the team of the big three Chuck Sarah and Casey. If Morgan had stayed in Hawaii with Anna at the beginning of season 3 I would have been just fine with it. Why they have decided to put so much of the focus of their final love affair with the fans on a character that I at best think is ok and for much of the show’s history disliked as incredibly annoying is beyond me.

    But I will give it a chance and of course watch the show because the one major story I wanted from this season, Sarah’s mom played by my choice Cheryl Ladd I am getting so I’ll deal with this big zero story. Hey if Fake Name didn’t drive me away from this show, though it almost did, I can deal with Morgansect. Afterall there is always the fast forward button on my Tivo.

    • ArmySFC says:

      uplink, well you covered all that well. i think that its morgan vs anybody that is causing most of the issues. i feel confident that if it was casey or sarah the out cry would not be nearly as bad. when it was first made know the cry was the same, why the 4th or lower liked character getting it? i’m not sure where they are headed with this, but to have morgan act towards chuck like he does in the promo, well you get the idea. while it can’t be as bad as the reaction as season 3, why have 3 episodes that may fracture an already tenuous fan base? that’s the biggest mystery to me.

      • @uplink: If you listen to a Fedyk interview, you can tell he has always thought of Morgan as the third or even second most important character. You might not agree, but that’s they way they’ve been writing him for S1, spots of S2, the last 11 of S3, and most of S4. That made the Morgansect a logical continuation of the story for me.

        pre S3, Morgan had motivation problems, which is why he wouldn’t have gotten into college and would work at a Buy More. However, they have shown glimpses of Morgan having detailed knowledge specialized areas he cares about. It means he might be an idiot, but he is not dumb. I would argue he has more humanity than everyone else on the show save Chuck and Ellie. I still don’t think he will be able to handle it, but Morgan is a better candidate in my book than Bryce, the Gretas, and Shaw.

        I’ve been wondering if they might kill Casey or Morgan. Casey makes sense because if it was the ultimate ‘die for his country’ sacrifice. Morgan, on the other hand, makes even more sense if he were to sacrifice himself to save Chuck (and maybe Sarah). Morgan is portrayed as the uber best friend, so it seems fitting for a final heroic act. I wonder, though, if more people would see it as tragic, would see it as heroic, or would just cheer because they don’t like Morgan.

        @ArmySFC: TPTB have never worried about fracturing the fan base. They aren’t afraid to strike out in bold directions to try to tell a unique story. It doesn’t always work, but on the whole it has because they did get five extensions and renewals over the last three seasons. The only difference is this time they aren’t worried about getting an extension. More Chuck would be great, but I doubt they are even trying. Considering they are writing 13 before 1 even airs, planning for an extension would be tough.

      • atcDave says:

        You’re hitting on the big disconnect between TPTB and fans. I think its pretty safe to say Sarah is the most popular character on the show; and viewers see her as the second most important character, many of us would be happy if she was the most important (I know I would). Yet I do believe you’re right that TPTB see her a supporting character and maybe not even second most important (at least not in their original concept, I believe most of the actual staff writers see her as more important than Fedak does).

        But yeah TPTB love Morgan. They want Morgan to be far important than most of us do. And to be fair, most casual viewers I speak with like Morgan far more than I, or most visitors to this site do. That’s exactly why I fear it. I think they might even make it work by making Morgan more important than I want because I fear most viewers like him far more than I do.

        We (more serious/critical viewers; if you’re reading this you are one) tend to take the story and the show more seriously than TPTB do. We really do forget its a comedy sometimes. I will TRY to relax and just laugh at Morgan. Apart from screen time, I doubt he can damage any other aspect of the characters; and its not going to gain me anything by being upset about it. So sit back and laugh, this should be fun.

      • armysfc says:

        jeff what you sat about TPTB is true. what i don’t want to see for the fans sake is a repeat of the cape from last year. the move to friday could hurt ratings. what would happen if say they opened at 1.2 ok for a friday. but the morgansect drops that to say .7 or lower after 3 episodes? when the finale aired they had people already asking fans to give it a chance before they condemned it, the reaction was that bad. would NBC who is killing programs quickly decide to air the last episodes online only? they have a news show that draws better than that and they could plug it in. that’s why i brought up the fracture. do i think it would happen no, but i have learned not to rule out any possibilities.

    • Verkan_Vall says:

      Agreed. I can put up with Morgan, if I have to.

  7. mxpw says:

    While I’d roll my eyes and occasionally mutter under my breath, I’d be fairly accepting of the Morgansect if I thought it meant we wouldn’t get yet another arc of Chuck being insecure and doubting himself. I am, frankly, about fed up to here with that kind of character writing for Chuck and don’t know if I can stand another string of episodes of Chuck whining, feeling insecure, questioning his self-worth, and his place on the team (or even worse, having people like Sarah or Casey questioning his place like they have in the past).

    Enough, I say. Just…enough. That was always my biggest concern after seeing Morgan get the Intersect. Well, that and facepalming over the dysfunctional mythology this show now has.

    I am just hoping that we don’t have to sit through a bunch of episodes of Chuck being annoying because he doesn’t think he’s “special” enough. Morgan being an idiot will be bad enough. I’m also hoping we don’t lose out on Chuck and Sarah mission stuff because Sarah is going to be paired up with Morgan now (like the premiere seems to indicate). If the show can assuage those fears, I don’t think I’ll mind the Morgansect that much, even if Morgan does get ridiculous.

    • JC says:

      This pretty much sums up my feelings as well. Insecure and whiny Chuck is not a character I want to see ever again.

      The only two things I would add is with all these other Intersects Chuck being unique and special has been forgotten. The other is whether Morgan will again be given the qualities that made Chuck so likable during the first two seasons.

    • Verkan_Vall says:

      Oh, AMEN to the disappearance of whiney Chuck.

      If I have to choose between less Sarah on one hand, and Sarah plus Morgan on the other, I’ll take the latter.

      I just hope I don’t have to watch Sarah Walker dance the Lambada with Morgan. There are limits, even for a old reprobate like me.

    • Big Kev says:

      MX,
      Agree with every word – both about whiny Chuck and the mythology. Whiny Chuck is just kryptonite for me – not fun to watch, and it’s a storyline that’s been done to death. It’s also a bizarre thing to do to the titular character of your show from a writing perspective.
      I’m not a fan of the Morgansect idea. I actually like Morgan (and Josh Gomez) – I think his development has been one of the most entertaining parts of Seasons 3 and (especially), and he was far more interesting to watch than Chuck for most of S4 (ref above paragraph) – so I’m not a Morgan-hater at all.
      I see the point of those who say giving the intersect to Morgan diminishes Chuck’s “specialness” – but I guess that doesn’t bother me too much. Chuck is special because of who he is, and how he sees the world (or at least he is when he’s written well)…. the intersect has always been fairly low on the list of reasons why Chuck is a special guy, IMO.
      I love the fact that we’ll get to see Chuck without the intersect, hopefully being smart, using his creative thinking to solve problems, and that’s part of the setup for S5 that I’m totally down with, ut what worries me about the Morgansect idea is the essential unoriginality of it. Where could the story go? Intersect glitches? Been there. Newbie spy with superpowers acts like a douche for a while? Been there. Intersect has unexpected side effects? Been there. It just strikes me as a tired idea, and one that makes me think the writers are running out of gas. It’s not a deal breaker, because it looks like it’s only going to be an issue for 3 episodes or so, and there may well be a pay off that I quite enjoy – but it’s all got a sense of “been there and done that” to me. Hopefully they’ll prove me wrong and/or Morgansect won’t last long.

      • JC says:

        Maybe this is just me but Chuck being special with how he handles the Intersect goes hand in hand with the mythology. You can’t separate the two. It was the premise of the show from beginning and has basically driven every season long arc. Every time someone else is given one it waters down Chuck as a character and muddies up the mythology even more. Just give us a concrete reason why he can handle it while others haven’t. They’ve hinted at it with the Alpha Intersect and the off hand comment made by the Greta’s but it’s never been followed through.

        When it comes to the Morgansect it wouldn’t have bothered me had Chuck still had one. I just don’t trust the writers not to make Chuck whiny and incompetent without it. Last season he was that way with the Intersect. I really don’t want to watch him only man up in the premier and finale with ten episodes of him being a wimp in the middle.

      • atcDave says:

        I agree with most of that Big Kev. Although I’m not too terribly worried about the whiney Chuck stuff; I haven’t seen any sign of it in the previews that have run. It looks like we’re going to see Chuck as the team boss, and hopefully that means smart Chuck too.

    • mxpw says:

      I don’t really care if Morgan has the Intersect or not. I mean, it’s not my ideal storyline for the show by any means, but it won’t bother me that much if they execute it well. I just don’t want whiny Chuck. That’s what we got the last time he lost the Intersect and I just hope there’s no repeat. That’s all.

      Obviously the Morgansect will be played for absurd comedy. I don’t think we’re supposed to take it seriously. I agree with Kev that if it plays out like the spoilers indicate it’s not the most original of ideas, but it wouldn’t be the first time this show repeated itself.

      Really, this is a great opportunity to see Chuck finally come into his own. Let’s hope it happens and the Morgansect will be a success and won’t matter anyway.

  8. Amron says:

    I agree with MyNameIsJeff(etc). At first, I was doubtful about Morgansect, but after a while I realize this is our Schrodinger’s Cat. We need to give them a chance!

    What make me hooked to Chuck was the balance of its elements, the whoa! moments (Bryce in the capsule, the Tron poster, Orion’s revelations). They lost it in S3 (too dark) and S4 (too much soap opera), and somehow, it seems they could make it right this last season. Bring back the surprise factor.

  9. We need a corollary to Godwin’s Law (wikipedia: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1): As a Chuck discussion grows longer, the probability of a complaint about season 3 or Shaw approaches 1.

  10. Nervert says:

    I gotta say I’m actually really looking forward to what Gomez does in the first three episodes. I think this has the potential to be plain awesome. Sarah and Morgan interactions have always been something I’ve enjoyed and looked forward to and it looks like we get that. However, if it does result in excessive whining from Chuck, I’ll probably get annoyed.

    As for the mythology issue, I don’t feel that Morgan getting the Intersect ruins too much of the mythology for me, as the Intersect technology has evolved. To me, the idea that Chuck is special would get stale and unrealistic if it was carried through all the seasons.

    As for the effect of reducing Charah, well, I’d happily see more balance in the use of characters on the show as I think I could easily get sick of Charah (especially since the writers have shown they want to get “cute” with them; the bank robbing scene was gag inducing for me and I nearly turned the episode off). That isn’t to say I don’t like the relationship, it was the main thing that attracted me to the show, but when the writers use it like “hey lets throw a bone to the shippers” it just turns me right off.

  11. jason says:

    Read all the comments. I guess that is why the one reviewer said the first ep(s) will be polarizing.

    I dislike the Morgan character, but I have commented several times I feel sorry for Gomez, as I think he is 100% Chuck thru and thru, and I am guessing this backlash or polarization will hurt his feelings.

    I don’t think Morgansect will be all that bad, except the first ep, which I think might be embarrassingly woeful …. think 35 minutes of Push Mix laser light vs the italian gangster non stop practicing in Last Detail. I’m guessing the other 7 minutes will be overt ‘throw shippers a bone’ so they don’t get too irritated, with the one seduction scene and a way too many honey’s and dear’s strewn in dialog throughout the Morgan charade.

    Once thru the first episode, maybe episode and a half, I think Morgansect is going to turn serious, which I am guessing the mythology crowd is actually going to enjoy, while shippers will be twiddling their thumbs just hoping it ends soon, but based on the reviews, I do think the last part of 5×2 and most of 5×3 Morgansect is going to work for most people, even shippers & especially fans of dramatic Chuck.

    If s5 was promised to be a love letter to the fans, I think Morgansect is going to be a bromance love affair among Fedak, Levi, & Gomez. My guess is somewhere on that set, the professionals (i.e. YS, AB, SL) watched it all with dropped jaws, which is what I think most fans are going to be doing.

  12. Leigh says:

    I really think the Morgansect could be a really great story. It’s so different from anything we’ve had on Chuck before.

    And remember what Casey said in season 3, “Before the Intersect, you were smart.” And we’re gonna see that again. I personally can’t wait. I can’t wait for Chuck to maybe be on equal footing with Casey and Sarah; just plain old spies, working together, trying to put a leash on their asset. For a long time, even after becoming a real-life-honest-to-god CIA agent, Chuck was the butt of all the jokes. Now Morgan is going to take his place, and he gets to be a bad-ass. At least I hope.

    I did cringe in the spoiler clip, with Morgan’s last line, though. What a thing to say to your best friend! Ouch!!! If that’s going to be a thing, the Chuck/Morgan friendship is really, really going to suffer. But that’s really the difference between Chuck and Morgan. Chuck saw the Intersect as a responsibility, something to be feared a little bit, and kept under wraps and under control. Morgan’s all about how amazing and cool and awesome it is. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.

  13. herder says:

    Mostly I’m not worried and I’m inclined to let it play out before getting too worked up. Chuck will be whiney as that is his character, how many times have we heard about “meshugenahs(sp) and hand wringing being part of his process”, that isn’t going to stop despite losing the intersect and winning the girl of his dreams.

    I think that Morgan being a failed intersect could show, at least in part why Chuck might be special, that the trick isn’t in being able to download it but in being able to use it without becoming a monster. Having Morgan be the one to do it enables the writers to spread the issue over a couple of episodes rather than cram it into one (The A Team), to take more time to explain the issue.

    The problem is the Morgan character itself, some things he does very well: yappy Chester to Casey’s Spike, straight man to Sarah’s comedy (think Chuck and Beckman-sort of), drawing out verbal pictures of Awesome’s awesomeness, his odd relationship with Alex, the butt of Jeffster pranks, the skewed father son relationship with Big Mike and being Chuck’s sounding board. The problem is that these are good in small doses, I like Jeffster doing Africa, I wouldn’t want it spread out to take up half the episode, neither do I need or want that much Morgan. I do worry a bit that TPTB think that if a little Morgan is good, more Morgan would be better and a lot of Morgan would be best, when in fact there is a tipping point for how much Morgan the show can bear and that point was reached last year.

    But as I said, I will wait to see how it plays out, I think they have earned back that much trust.

    • atcDave says:

      Very well put herder. I would agree with your balanced view entirely.

    • Thank you. I’m glad somebody else realized being whiny while working through issues is what Chuck does. It may not be an attractive character trait, but it is part of who he is. Without it, he would be too much of a cold hearted spy or maybe even a cocky arrogant jerk.

      TPTB always go overboard with a good thing, usually past the tipping point. Jeffster in the maternity ward is a prime example. They could have cut a little bit of that and have extended a sweet/awkward reunion/I’m-glad-your-ok scene between Sarah and Casey. However, I did really like seeing Jeffster being arrested. Most of the time, I find the fearless over-the-top stuff funny. But, not everyone likes the show as a comedy like I do. The great thing about this show is there is always so much going on that if you don’t get hung up on one thing you don’t like, there is something else to like.

  14. Ernie Davis says:

    Well glad to see we aren’t pre-judging. 😉 We seem to have the full range of opinion from “I hope it doesn’t suck too bad.” to “The very concept is an insult to the fandom.”

    At a certain point setting up expectations becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you are determined to see Morgan’s screen time as coming at the expense of Sarah, Charah or Team B, you probably aren’t going to enjoy it. Which is fine, you don’t have to. But rejecting the premise of a story and then complaining about the way TPTB present it isn’t really fair.

    I suspect that the purpose of the Morgansect is to show how and why Chuck is special, not to establish that he is not. I also suspect that it will be a way to explain some of the mythology of the Bartowski family legacy, from the development of the first intersect that drove Hartley Winterbottom insane almost immediately to the later generations that were more benign, to Ellie’s version which modified her father’s design to store data in a more brain-like and less computer-like manner.

    As for whiney Chuck, well he’s been insecure and neurotic pretty much the whole series. It’s why he needs Sarah and Ellie (and now occasionally Casey) around, to stiffen his spine and remind him he’s special. I don’t mind when they do that for him. Chuck as Carmichael for 43 minutes week after week would be pretty boring to me.

    • jason says:

      Fans don’t make up their reaction until something is presented to them, they react to what is presented. A different presentation, would result in a different reaction.

      If a Mr and Mrs Charles season had been teased with Chuck and Sarah pitching the entire offseason rather than Morgan and Chuck, the reaction would be quite different than what we have now.

      Smart and cool Chuck with Sarah can get in just as much trouble or prove just as many mythology points as super cool Morgan with whiney, clueless Chuck, it is a matter of choice by the writers to determine which one we get. Since fans do not have the choice of what is written, the only option fans have is to react, and react fans have.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Jason, I’ve been reading posts all summer that are essentially fans pre-reacting to the Morgansect. I’m gonna hate it if this happens, or the only way to resolve this is to take it back… Fans can and do set up expectations, both positive and negative, that will affect how they react to what is eventually shown. I see it all the time. The wedding wasn’t awesome or long enough, Sarah and Casey needed to hug in Push Mix, Jeffster and the Buy More are a waste of screen time… The list goes on. These are based on things people wanted or expected, but didn’t get or didn’t want, but did get.

        If people are pre-disposed to see an unnecessarily whiney Chuck or Morgan stealing Sarah’s screen time because they are dreading them, they’re a lot more likely to see those things.

      • Ernie, you are exactly right about viewer expectations. The show is a lot more fun if you just hang on for the ride.

        I thought your list is interesting. I didn’t care about the real wedding because I thought the practice wedding was so awesome. I didn’t want a hug in Push Mix. I wanted an awkward, “should we hug?” moment, with both of them realizing it is not a good idea. We almost, but did not quite get that. Jeffster occasionally misses, but Africa and Mr. Roboto were so great, they’ve earn a perpetual pass in my book. Some Buy More plotlines are a waste, however when the Buy More plot parallels the spy plot, it is a thing of beauty. It one of the things that makes the show unique.

        I guess I’m rare in the Chuck fandom. I know TPTB might tell a story different than “my ideal”, but I trust them enough to know they are going to a good destination and I’ll have a lot of fun along the way.

      • joe says:

        Jeff, I’m not sure how unique you are in the fandom. At the very least, you echo my sentiments exactly.

        Army of two!

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Thanks Jeff. I agree with a lot of your reactions to my “list”. In addition I think there is sometimes a purpose to the way TPTB do things that people miss by writing the scenes in their heads a priori. Thinkling pointed out something about the finale that I had missed, but was established by the split wedding scene. Sarah finished her journey first. Who would ever have expected that she would be the articulate schnook of the pair and Chuck would be at a loss for words because he’d spent the last few days proving to both himself and Sarah that she could count on him to protect her now that she’s opened up and become more vulnerable.

        I know what you mean about enjoying holding on for the ride. Ring I is my ultimate example of that. I also know what you and Herder mean about TPTB sometimes getting into a little trouble going over the top. The cross genre thing is tough to pull off, and on occasion something that is established dramatically tends to go clunk if paid off comedically. Still, I can’t think of another show I find nearly as fun to follow, so I’ll trust TPTB to make Morgan the intersect or have Chuck insecure if they think it takes us someplace enjoyable in the end.

      • atcDave says:

        I think there can be plenty of middle ground on this. I think it’s completely reasonable to have hopes and expectations, that’s really the whole reason they do spoilers and give interviews is to build those hopes and excitement. The trick is to judge fairly when the actual product comes out. As I’ve said many times, I don’t particularly want to see Morgan get more screen time, and that is absolutely true. But that doesn’t mean I won’t like what I see; only that I have a concern for this new season.
        Right now, all we can do is talk about what we think of the little information we do have. I’m not thrilled with Morgansect, but for the record, that’s about the only element about S5 I’m really concerned with. So far, I’ve only really been disappointed with one major arc of the entire series. Every other concern I’ve had has been handled well, or at least fixed quickly (lying Chuck).

        We already seem to be polarized over this, and I’m sorry but its silly. On the one hand its a mistake to get so worked over a story we haven’t even seen yet to dismiss the whole idea. But on the other, I see no harm in letting viewers express their concerns. I think its only natural as invested as most of us are in this show to have opinions about what’s coming next.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Dave, I’m not trying to say people shouldn’t have expectations. It’s probably impossible to avoid for fans. My point is don’t hold on to them too tightly when it comes to screen time, especially the negative ones as they can become self-fulfilling. And while I think voicing your fears has some utility if you are willing to have them aleviated, it can also tend to re-inforce them to the point where they take away the ability to enjoy the show.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah I agree completely with that Ernie.

      • jason says:

        Ernie – The reaction from fans you dislike is a reaction born from four seasons of not enough Sarah, Chuck and Sarah along with too much Morgan. Expectations are as result of being fans for four seasons, watching, reacting, and being human. I don’t know how anyone can compete in a game, or marry, or have a family, or go to work, or do anything without expectations.

        We do the same thing when we watch TV. You have expectations too (although yours are always logical and reasonable aren’t they?). Your words often betray your own expectations, and when you write about the show vs those expectations, you are one of the best writers on this site. My advice is quite worrying about others expectations or reactions to things like Morgan, and give us your own, that is one post I really look forward to.

      • JC says:

        I can understand why people are saying don’t jump the gun or wait on how it plays out. And I’d be right there with them if this was a completely new storyline but its not. Chuck without the Intersect and Morgan’s expanded role as a spy were major arcs last season. If that didn’t work for you as fan last year it’d be hard to be excited about a season starting that way.

      • jason says:

        Dave – I said no harsh words, only word I used was ‘dismissive’. Categorically means ‘Being without exception or qualification’. That implies you see no fault, yet you more or less admitted you do see the fault and so does he, he simply doesn’t mean to do it and he is a nice guy, you friend and Joe’s too. Maybe you meant ‘conditional’? Oh well, again, to repeat, I thought it was unfair how aggressively you and Joe jumped all over VV to protect your friend, so I said so. Would you want any less?

      • atcDave says:

        Looks like this thread has jumped around some…

        But Jason I don’t believe I used any harsh words and I believe my tone has been respectful. I don’t believe there was anything “aggressive” about my response or word choices. I have been very aggressive with other posters recently (some of which I regret, some I don’t), but not at all in this case, and even after re-reading several times I see nothing aggressive. My motive is purely to end this dispute and end the inflammatory language. It was coincidental Joe and I jumped in at the same time, notice our posts were only three minutes apart, I’m sure we both took longer than three minutes on our comments!
        My use of the word categorically was deliberate and considered; it was not in reference to any party being beyond blame (blame is never a very interesting topic to me, there’s always some on both sides), it was a reference to either party being deserving of some of the harsh words I saw.

    • herder says:

      Don’t get me wrong, when I say that I’ll see how it plays out I mean that part of me believes that it could play out very well. Morgan as Intersect allows cetain things to happen that couldn’t happen with Chuck as the intersect, Chuck could screw up but then the Hero in him saves the day, Morgan can irredeemably screw up and with the self assurance of the truely stupid think that he has saved the day. Morgan can fail in ways that Chuck couldn’t.

      One of the things that had always bothered me is that when ever things went wrong the CIA always blamed Chuck for not being enough of a spy to handle the intersect, with Morgan as intersect Casey, Beckman and maybe even Sarah can begin to apreciate how lucky they were to get Chuck as the intersect as opposed to anyone else.

      You can have situations of Sarah and Morgan or Casey and Morgan that parallel situations involving Chuck from seasons one and two and have them apreciate that what they had thought of as a typical Chuck screw up was in fact not only the best way to handle the situation but the only way to handle the situation. Cocky, overconfident, douchy Morgan who pushes back against Casey and Sarah could be contrasted to how Chuck handled things several years ago.

      Chuck and Sarah can be in a good place and not have to share screen time in every episode for the show to suceed. As I said, lets wait and see how it plays out.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Herder, well said, and I thought your post above pretty balanced, I was reacting more to the entire discussion than any one post. I think we are on pretty much the same page since my post (though slightly more optomistic I think) parallels yours regarding the Morgansect and insecure Chuck. I just wanted to add the cautionary note about expectations and how they can skew your view or blind you to the real purpose of something if you aren’t careful.

      • herder says:

        Nah, I just wanted to expand on some of the positive things that could come from a morgansect. Of Sarah/Yvonne’s scenes over the past two years some of the best have come about with Morgan/Josh: “Morgan, we never talk…” from season three is great, the bedroom scene between them in Phase Three is heartbreaking, her playing with the Action figures from Masquerade is a terrific example of well intentioned ackwardness and there are others.

        My concern was that they involved Morgan as a straight man to Sarah and other’s comedy, I do have concerns about his driving the plot, but that is the part I’m willing to let play out.

      • herder says:

        I thought of another way of looking at this, it requires certain assumptions, lets assume that part of the reason for the Morgansect is to show a part of why Chuck is special, we saw with the Gretas that with the intersect they were arrogant, shortsighted, shot first and asked questions later and didn’t see the bigger picture. Was that a function of the intersect or of being a spy.

        If TPTB want to show what happens to someone who has the intersect over a longer period they can bring in a new character for a multi-episode arc with all the screen time that goes with explaining their background, who they are, what they are like and how the intersect changes them. Or they can put it into an existing character who we all know what their past and character is like, saving all that exposition. They can have this new character (agent Y perhaps) interact with several characters or they can have an existing character show how their normal interaction changes with more of the cast, for example why would agent Y have anything to do with Jeff, Lester or Big Mike.

        My suspicion is that this three episode arc is to show not only a part of why Chuck is special but why Deker sees him as such a threat. Doing it with an existing character allows the guest stars to be entertaining bad guys and the new intesect to be someone we already know, avoiding extra exposition and in the end allowing for less screen time to be taken away from the regular cast. Yes Morgan gets more screen time but he was always going to have a certain amount anyways, doing it this way allows more screen time for all the other characters, Chuck, Sarah and Casey included.

    • armysfc says:

      i think everyone here has good points.

      the division happened right away, as soon as it aired, it didn’t come about recently. this is the second thread of this kind here, the first happened right after the episode aired. i have always thought that immediate reactions are the truer ones. fans were polarized right away, the promos and spoilers have helped confirm it to some people. an example is, if you dislike morgan and they tell you that he is going to be a douche for a while, it feeds into that. they did that. if you are worried about chuck being replaced on missions by morgan, and they release pictures showing morgan and sarah dancing, it feeds that idea. they did that. they have in some small way helped confirm those ideas.

      people are predisposed to making assumptions about everything not just TV shows. in sports a 1-10 team is playing a 10-1 team and most people think the game will stink. it could be the best game of the year but you don’t know until its over. TV is different because it take so long to get to the end. in a movie if the plot hits a low point it resolves quickly for the viewer even if it takes six months to resolve on the screen. the viewer has little time to stew in their own juices about it. on TV you have to wait weeks to get to the resolution to the problem.

      the parts about fans self fulling prophesy is also true. some fans that get so wrapped up in the hero’s journey, the charah, their dislike of morgan, their want for mythology or comedy that they can’t see the forest for the trees. it’s human nature to do it. i have it said it before, we defend what we like and attack what we don’t.

      this fans base has a lot of different needs that the show has to meet, because that’s what they showed early on. it’s a hard thing for them to do. in some cases they do well in others they don’t. the issue becomes at what point does the trip to the promised land out weigh the actual arrival? over the last few seasons those trips took to long and were so hard they just gave up on it.

    • Verkan_Vall says:

      Interesting.

      Tell me Ernie, if Chuck is just as whiney and as insecure in the last season as he was in the first, just how much of a hero’s journey has he had? I’m not demanding Charles Carmichael 43 minutes a week here, just a range between a normal newly-wedded adult and Mr. Superspy Carmichael would be fine.

      If they want to throw in a few scenes where Chuck does something dumb with life-long buddy Morgan, fine; people do that. But being whiney and insecure are generally seen as traits of immaturity, and a hero tends to outgrow those things as he earns the respect and regard of those he cares for and those who trust him. Needing (and providing) emotional support to your spouse or your partner is perfectly reasonable, but they need to cut back on the whining insecurity.

      Or is the Hero’s Journey just about the neat toys and cool sidekicks you pick up along the way?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Tell me Ernie, if Chuck is just as whiney and as insecure in the last season as he was in the first, just how much of a hero’s journey has he had?

        Chuck being just as whiney and insecure in the last season as in the first begs the question. He isn’t, and hasn’t been for quite some time.

      • atcDave says:

        One of my main memories of S4 is Chuck’s rise as a leader. I really don’t recall much whining. He occasionally looked weak by taking very foolish advice from Morgan, I HOPE they knock that off for S5. And I think they will, the previews we’ve seen all show Chuck well aware of Morgan’s rash and foolish tendencies. He’s more like a long suffering parent; which seems fitting for any friend of Morgan’s!

      • BigKev67 says:

        Hmmm.
        Haven’t done an S4 rewatch so I can’t get into specific examples or comparisons, but I do know that whiny, neurotic Chuck ruined swathes of the season for me. Maybe I have less tolerance now than I had in Season One. I do remember being disappointed that all the intersectless insecurity came back to not being worthy of Sarah. I thought S3 had established that Chuck had a greater, more noble reason for being a spy – but then they seemed to toss all that and it became all about Sarah again.
        Looks like they’re going to revisit the question of who Chuck is without the intersect. I hope this season they go back to some of the greater good vibe of S3, rather than just a guy trying to impress a cute girl.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Kev, part of the point was that Chuck was unsure if he COULD be a spy without the intersect, regardless of his noble motives for wanting to be a spy. Having his mother and Volkoff trick him into revealing Orion’s base and being responsible for the destruction of his father’s life’s work (and nearly getting both he and Sarah killed) just might instill some doubt as to whether he was cut out for being a spy with or without the intersect. Add to that the fact that Sarah at first seemed ambivalent on him remaining a spy or getting the intersect back, Chuck wondering if Sarah saw him as her equal would naturally arise again.

        I think TPTB established pretty well that Chuck lost his mojo when he lost the intersect, and would take great risks to recapture that life he felt was slipping away.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Ernie I remember him having doubts for a while, especially when he lost the Intersect. But my main impression of that arc was Chuck trying to prove his worth for one episode, where he found his answers; one episode where he was mostly captured and unconscious; and one episode where he proved his worth and got the Intersect back. I guess he got a little whiney when they interrogated his mom, but that’s the only time I remember it.

      • BigKev67 says:

        Ernie,
        Point absolutely taken. I guess my issue was more with Chuck’s motivation for wanting to try and resume the spy life. That seemed to be all about being good enough for Sarah, rather than resuming his heroic destiny – but happy to concede that the Intersectless arc is a blind spot for me, and my judgement is not impartial!

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Well I take Chuck’s definitive line during the massage (making it understandable a lot of people miss it) as the reveal on his motivation. “I quite like being a spy. Doing great things, doing them with you…” I think he doesn’t really separate them. Sarah does great things, and being able to do them with her is his dream life.

      • atcDave says:

        Maybe it was a flawed concept to have key dialogue delivered during that massage scene.

      • Excellent point Dave. When Agent Rye fell to his death off the gondola, I was happier than I was bad guys get shot. (I think I said “Yes!” out loud). I figured he deserved it for ignoring intel updates from Sarah, putting Chuck’s life in danger, claiming he knew what was going on with the Intersect when he really didn’t (an ongoing theme for CIA scientists), and acting like more of an idiot than Morgan ever has been (on par with Jeff and Lester). But subconsciously, I now know it was because he interrupted the massage.

      • herder says:

        Maybe it will be a theme, sexytimus interuptus = death.

      • joe says:

        Great discussion.

        Jeff, you have a point about Rye. When he bought it, I nearly cheered too. I think that was the desired reaction, and the point of the whole thing.

        Chuck was intersectless, but not helpless. He really wanted to prove himself. On top of that, there was a part of him (and a part of everybody watching, I think) that wondered what Sarah really wanted. I mean, there was something about Bryce, Cole and even Shaw that was a little “James Bond”, and if there was ever her type, that was it.

        Thanks to Rye, Chuck got into situations where even James Bond fear to tread (but not Rye, btw). Rye’s demise showed him that being macho didn’t help, and it didn’t do much for Sarah, either. That’s just not Chuck’s style.

        And in the follow-up, Phase 3, we got to see what Sarah really wanted too. If Chuck ever thought to be an arrogant James Bond type because of the Intersect, he disabused himself of that notion thanks to Rye.

      • Verkan_Vall says:

        @Ernie:

        OK, now I’m confused. (or rather, I’m more confused, because “now” implies it stopped.)

        You accused me of begging the question. To beg the question is to make a statement that is assumed to be true without any evidence other than the statement itself. Yet, Mxpw, Big Kev, JC, Jason, Herder, MyNameIsJeffImLost have all mentioned the issue of whiney/insecure in this thread, some suggesting that it is an integral part of Chuck’s personality. So, how am I begging the question by talking about something that half a dozen people have mentioned in the same thread?

        And you wrote this:

        “As for whiney Chuck, well he’s been insecure and neurotic pretty much the whole series.”

        Then you wrote this: “Chuck being just as whiney and insecure in the last season as in the first begs the question. He isn’t, and hasn’t been for quite some time.”

        Were these lines written by the same person? (and if we’re going to get into a discussion about the fine difference between “pretty much the whole series” versus “hasn’t been for quite some time”, I’d appreciate a head’s up so I can start clocking Chuck’s behavior with a stop watch).

        You don’t think Chuck was whiney in S4. Fine. You persuaded Big Kev of that: good for you. That doesn’t mean that anyone who does think Chuck was whiney is guilty of a logical fallacy. It is a matter of opinion and perception, as a number of people who post on this site have stated in the past.

        You being dismissive and pretentious about it won’t change many of those opinions, but it IS amusing.

      • armysfc says:

        VV, i’m on the side that says whiny chuck made an appearance or 2 in season 4. i must have a different idea of whats whiny than some. in fear of death in the cold room, chuck was whiny, at the point where he backed away rye turned it off i was waiting for him to curl into the fetal position on the floor. his saying in a high voice he can’t do this was whiny to me. i think i have that scene down correct. the gondola part was not quite as bad, but he still did not man up, so whiny. there was also that scene on the street where mary saves them, not very manly.

        here’s a saying i read a while back. “to prove that not all crows are black, you only need to find one white crow.” when a comment is made that something hasn’t been there in a season, and you find one instance where it is…well you get the idea. like i said, those scenes may not be whiny to some, but to me it is. not to sound harsh but when i watch a show the only opinion that counts is mine. in this case it is shared by others.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        VV, it’s a matter of degree. Chuck is still a bit whiney and insecure on occasion, but nowhere near the degree he was in season 1 where he would literally hide behind Sarah in a confrontation. Sarah is still a bit manipulative, secretive and still has some trouble opening up, but nowhere near the degree as season 1. They both maintain some positive and negative aspects of their personalities even as they grow and mature.

        Your phrasing of the question offered a false premise. A whiney insecure Chuck has undergone no growth since season 1. That is the question you beg. You state your conclusion as the premise, which is a logical fallacy that can’t be supported by what we’ve been shown on the screen. That is why I re-stated your premise, to show, intentional or not, that you phrased it in a manner that eliminated the possibility of discussion given your premise.

        Chuck while still occasionally whiney and insecure is not nearly as whiney and insecure as he was in season 1, and he hasn’t been for a long time. I don’t think that contradicts anything I said about whiney insecurities and neuroses being a part of Chuck’s personality for pretty much the whole series, and I don’t think it’s really that confusing, but sorry if you didn’t understand. Hope my clarification helped.

        If you want to talk about the degree of insecurity that is appropriate or our individual levels of tolerance that’s fine, but it’s a matter of taste. Dismissing any growth on Chuck’s part, as you did, intentional or not, was not an argument I was going to have, so sorry if I sounded dismissive or arrogant. My intent was to be brief.

      • BigKev67 says:

        VV,
        Just to clarify – I still think there was way too much whiny Chuck in S4. Ernie made a point that there may have been a good reason behind it that I missed and I’m happy to accept that. Understanding that doesnt make me any keener to see it on my screen though.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Kev, there’s one other point to consider. The source of Chuck’s crises of confidence and “whining” ( a pejorative I’m dropping ) has shifted dramatically. In season 1 Chuck went into hand-wringing mode over Sarah kissing or paying more attention to Bryce. In season two it was over Bryce again, or Sarah making googly eyes at Cole, or not standing up to Beckman when she didn’t think he would know. In season 4 Chuck had crises of confidence over being tricked into destroying his father’s legacy and allowing his mother to disable the intersect, then over having one of his handpicked team of new recruits die at the hands of another on his watch.

        So even if you want to declare Chuck just as insecure and uncertain in season 4 as in season 1, it’s about things that are a lot more serious than Sarah ruining his date with Lou or kissing Bryce.

      • armysfc says:

        there was also the crisis of confidence with sarah. wasn’t that what the big speech morgan gave to sarah in phase3? she never told him she loved him without the intersect? wasn’t that why he did what he did in FOD? thats what the whole FOD/phase 3 was about, sarah proving to chuck she did love him with or with out the intersect. i say thats close to his fear of bryce or cole. he still didn’t get she loved him for just being him.

      • mxpw says:

        Er, yeah, I’m with Army. You seem to be conveniently forgetting the whole Intersectless arc, Ernie. That entire arc was more or less about him feeling insecure over his place on the team and his place in his relationship with Sarah. He wasn’t convinced that Sarah would still want to be with him if he didn’t have the Intersect. I mean, that was pretty blatantly the whole point of Phrase 3.

        Also, I disagree with your other points as well. I can’t remember a single instance where Chuck showed the slightest bit of concern or insecurity over the Orion cave blowing up, or his recruits getting killed, beyond a few seconds here or there in Muuuuurder.

        Chuck’s freaking out in S4 was largely personal, just like it’s always been.

      • Verkan_Vall says:

        @Ernie:

        Apparently I speak a different version of English than you.

        I never stated a premise. A premise is a declarative statement; for example:

        Chuck has brown eyes.

        I asked a question:

        “Tell me Ernie, if Chuck is just as whiney and as insecure in the last season as he was in the first, just how much of a hero’s journey has he had?”

        Notice the use of the word “if” and the question mark at the end?
        Now, whether or not you answer my questions is up to you; your time is your own, and you would not be the first or the last to ignore my blather. In fact, you did answer my question in your answering post: you consider Chuck’s whineyness to be a gradient from a high in S1 to a minimal low in S4. I happen to agree in general about the gradient, but a number of people do not. I have 5 nephews in the 16 to 25 age bracket, and none of them thought whiney, insecure Chuck was funny; they generally considered it to be a distraction and the terms “regressing” and “backsliding” were used. Army’s list in his post is a good example of what they didn’t like.

        Does this matter? If S5 is the end of Chuck, then no. But if the showrunners are hoping for an extension (as many fans are), or a feature length project (which I would pay to see), then they need every warm body they can get on Friday night, and they need to keep them there. If my nephews are representative, then whiney, insecure Chuck becomes an issue. Not necessarily needy Chuck; I can see Chuck needing Sarah (who wouldn’t?). But a lot of people want to see the hero BE a hero distinct from the person he was 5 years ago, or it is going to diminish the impact of the story for them. Done right, Morgan could be instrumental in avoiding that, and providing a satisfying payoff.

        To reiterate: I didn’t beg the question, I ASKED one. I didn’t state a PREMISE, I asked a QUESTION, which you treated as a premise to suit your own purpose. When you start saying things like:
        “false premise”,
        “You state your conclusion as the premise, which is a logical fallacy”,
        “that eliminated the possibility of discussion given your premise”,
        “Dismissing any growth on Chuck’s part”,

        You are describing things that exist in your mind, not mine.

        A question is not a statement, at least not in the version of English that I use.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        VV. Your question contained a premise, that Chuck was just as whiney and insecure in season 4 as in season 1, and a question, how much of a hero’s journey can there be given that premise. That was the basis for discussion. I reject the premise, therefore further discussion was pretty pointless since I think the growth Chuck has shown is pretty evident. You wanted to hold a discussion on your terms, I didn’t. Sorry this upsets you so much, but it is simply a difference of opinion that I didn’t see much point in pursuing.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        MXPW, I’ll give you a modified version of my reply to VV. I don’t agree, but I understand that to some people certain aspects of the show have passed their level of tolerance, and they perceive things differently than I do. I have no interest in convincing them otherwise, and I find that there’s little basis for discussion with so little common ground to build on, so I’ll beg off with just a quick statement of my POV on the intersectless arc.

        From what I see Chuck has a crisis of confidence brought on by failing professionally. With that come worries about how it will affect his future with Sarah if he can’t be a part of her world anymore, but he isn’t trying to break up or make her quit, he’s just putting things on hold till the uncertainty about where his life is headed is resolved.

      • Verkan_Vall says:

        @Ernie

        This is my fault. I referenced the Hero’s Journey in my original post and that prompted an emotional reaction from you. You’ve been using logic to belittle people and dismiss their views for so long that your first instinct was to twist what I had written so you could use a Straw Man to slap me down. I’m sorry I upset you so much, I should never have referred to the Hero’s Journey.

        The problem is, there is no premise in my question. The use of the word “if” is used to indicate a possibility; a premise is a statement, which is something else entirely. A few days ago, you slammed the door on Army because you thought what he was writing was illogical. Now, here you are redefining a basic term of logical discourse to suit your convenience. Unless I missed the announcement, you’re not a god and you don’t get to do that. Although, I must say that you have the arrogance and condescension to go with the role.

        If you have no interest in an discussion, either ignore me or just say you don’t think there is enough common ground to be worth your while. But when you throw a Straw Man at me and start using terms like:

        ““false premise”,
        “You state your conclusion as the premise, which is a logical fallacy”,
        “that eliminated the possibility of discussion given your premise”,

        you have to realize that these are things that you read into my question; they are part of your delusion, not mine.

      • atcDave says:

        VV you know we see eye to eye on most issues related to the show, and I always look forward to your comments. In fact we agree on far more issues than Ernie and I do. Ernie and I have debated constantly almost as long as he’s been a part of this blog. But you have to believe when I say it is not his intent to be arrogant or dismissive. I don’t know exactly why you two have become so confrontational with each other (I’m not interested in assigning blame), but its obvious there’s been a complete breakdown of understanding.
        I know all of us get overly emotional sometimes in defending our views. But I particularly dislike seeing two writers whose contributions I appreciate so much generating bad blood with each other. I happen to know both of you actually like where the show is at right now which makes it even more frustrating to see tempers flair over matters of taste or perception. We’re five days from the start of the final season, there should be more to be celebrating together than there is to get angry over.

      • joe says:

        Oh, c’mon, VV. You know damn well you’re reading harshly again and worse, being provocative. I recommend that you be very certain that you’re not guilty of exactly the offenses you claim to see.

        From my POV, you’re not alone in that; we’ve had a rash of comments of late that have been heavy handed and inflammatory. And for that, I’ve got to take the blame. I’ve let it slide. So I’m explicitly stating now that I’m specifically not calling you out. I’m unilaterally declaring a new policy. It is this:

        We are not a political blog. Disagreements here are NOT personal and they are NOT an indication of anyone’s self-worth. No one needs to beat anyone else over the head with arguments, logical or otherwise. Trust YOU’VE BEEN HEARD.

        This blog is for fans to express themselves about a show they enjoy, not to forcibly convince others. If you can’t refrain from personalizing it and if you can’t remain civil, we’ll be happier without you and your drama, whoever you are.

      • jason says:

        Joe, Dave, doesn’t it still take two to tango?

      • atcDave says:

        Jason an inflammatory tone, especially when its an attack on something you yourself have said, is VERY hard to resist. I know when someone ridicules or taunts one of my positions or arguments it is almost impossible to just let it go. I will not let a misrepresentation of what I have said stand. So while I am always responsible for my own tone, even if provoked; the provocateur is the instigator. We all need to be aware of and take responsibility for our own comments. None of us gets a pass for being a jerk, it doesn’t matter if we instigated or responded.

      • jason says:

        dave – I don’t want to say too much bad about ‘the other guy’ in the above tango because you and Joe are obviously oblivious to his role in the acrimonious exchange above. So I will say the nicest word I can think of about his tone toward many of us regular bloggers here, dismissive (I can think of a dozen others which are far less complimentary). But when two of the moderators here run to his defense, it ‘begs the question’, are you both rushing in because he was wronged, or because he is wrong??? Just asking? Anyhow, I am a sucker for fair fights, 3 against 2, seems fairer than 3 against 1 doesn’t it????

      • joe says:

        Not dismissive at all, Jason. From my POV, the operative emotion is frustration. I know, ’cause I’m feeling it too. It comes from two years, thousands of hours and uncountable numbers of read, considered and answered comments.

        And I’m sorry this looks anything like a 3 on 1 or a 3 on 2 or even a tango.

      • atcDave says:

        Jason we exchange a lot of e-mails between the six of us. That and Joe, Ernie and I have spent time together and got along quite well. I know for a fact that Ernie does not mean to annoy you or anyone else, and he is actually pained by some of the controversy he seems to generate. Joe and I absolutely read a level of subtext in Ernie’s writings that others may be lacking, and I consider him a friend.
        I typically consider most frequent posters at this site to be friends too and it pains me when these spats come up. Especially if I find myself on opposite sides from you or VV, because you are the ones who see the show most like I do. But categorically Ernie does not deserve your harsh thoughts.
        (Can’t we all just get along?)

      • thinkling says:

        Wow, long thread. Whiny Chuck, huh?

        Well, to say that Chuck was just as whiny in S4 as in S1 … I just don’t see it. By S4 he has progressed to be a spy and the leader of his team.

        That position depended on the Intersect. It’s why he was an agent and why he has a team and how they go on missions. Without the Intersect, the whole team was benched, and his standing as an agent was in question. That was a big part of his concern in FOD. The other was that he wasn’t sure he could keep on doing great things with Sarah. He liked being a spy with her and wasn’t sure how things would go without the Intersect. Add in the mom factor (the woman who abandoned him returned only to steal the Intersect from him), and the insecurities are understandable. The insecurity was coming from a completely different angle, however, than S1. In spite of his insecurities, he pushed through the tests, attacked a bunch of ninjas, and put everything on the line for his team. Actually he showed a lot of courage up until he was about to freeze or drop to his death.

        For Chuck to be fully the Hero/Leader he needed to be there were two things in his way: first a dependence on the Intersect and second his abandonment issues. (Some people wanted his abandonment issues to be addressed and then complained loudly when they were, because it made Chuck insecure. Well, duh!)

        Those two things were resolved by the end of Leftovers, and that was pretty much the end of whiny Chuck. He was tested in Cliffhanger, when the Intersect was removed, but he saved Sarah without it.

        For S5, he will be the leader of his team without the Intersect. I believe he will do it with minimal whine. I expect some introspection, worrying, and insecurity in the beginning (episode 1), because he now has to find his style and place without the Intersect, but it won’t be a repeat of FOD. It would be normal, even expected, for this new challenge to be a little hard to deal with. But I expect that he will step into his new shoes and learn to lead his team without the Intersect. I think we’ll see that the Intersect, like training wheels, will no longer be needed for Chuck to be the Hero/Leader he was meant to be.

        As far as Morgansect, I’m tired of the doom and gloom. Do I want Morgan to dominate the screen or diminish CS? No. But I don’t think he will. Yvonne’s interviews give me great hope. I think Morgansect will be hilarious. (There are hints that it may get to be too much for some in 1-3, but the resolution will be worth it). I expect some great Morgan/Sarah comedy. I’d much rather see Morgan as a kink in the missions than see him dealing with the Buymore, Jeffster, and Big Mike (that’s just gotten old). I expect the main thing we will learn is just how special Chuck is, both his brain and his character and his leadership.

        I just don’t have it in me to be worried. I see more reason to be excited than to worry, so I choose to be excited.

      • thinkling says:

        Sorry, I have more to say. Don’t really know where to start, so forgive me if I ramble a bit.

        1. Back to the Intersect-less arc. The more people have thrown rocks at it, the more it’s made me analyze it (and want to defend it). I see it as absolutely critical to Chuck and Sarah’s journey. I also see it as under-appreciated for the function it performed. Hence, I completely understand Ernie’s frustration. I also maintain that Chuck is not as whiny or insecure in S4 as S1 (as I’ve stated). The idea is untenable, even ridiculous. In your mind put S1 Chuck in the middle of S4 (and all the things Chuck faced with calm courage and without any insecurity). It would be unmittigated disaster with a double side of whine. He wouldn’t last 5 minutes.

        Ernie and I might each pick up on different aspects or nuances, but I think I can say with confidence that we see the Intersect-less arc as a vital part of Chuck’s journey. Perhaps it’s what you look for, but take another look at FOD and purposefully look for courageous Chuck instead of whiny Chuck, and you’ll get an eyeful. True, there are a lot of issues swirling around, but they need to be addressed and the Intersect-less arc does that in (for me) a great way.

        The Intersect-less arc paves the way for everything we love that comes after: Sarah’s declarations, her newfound openness, and her willingness to talk; Chuck’s new level of confidence, his determination and confidence to step into Orion’s shoes in Push Mix; his determination to go against the CIA and save Sarah in Cliffhanger (that decision had already been made hanging from the gondola in FOD); his ability to save her without the Intersect. Without the Intersect-less arc there would have been no foundation for those things.

        All the great things we saw in Chuck, post Leftovers, were thanks to his issues having been dealt with in the Intersect-less arc.

        2. On to S5. The Intersect-less arc also paves the way for S5 Chuck, as Hero/Leader sans Intersect. Come on, no way would Chuck ever start up his own spy business without the confidence he gained from the Intersect-less arc. It was the foundation on which his confidence was built throughout future arcs.

        I’m not expecting whiny Chuck (except, as I said, some second guessing in episode 1). I’m expecting confident Chuck … which doesn’t necessarily mean Charles Carmichael all the time. I expect the Chuck that I see (and I know I’m speculating here, but with good reason) that was meant to be … Charles Orion Carmichael Bartowski. He is and will always be Chuck, not James Bond, but he has gained Carmichael’s confidence and Orion’s legacy. I believe some of his CIA training will be evident, but at the same time, it’s a new day for him in the spy world without the Intersect. It would be unrealistic not to see the effects of that from time to time for both Chuck and Sarah.

        The other reason, I expect a more confident Chuck is that he and Sarah are married. There should be no more insecurity there, not like there was before when they were only living together.

        All of this, again, adds up to a very positive vibe for me toward S5.

        3. As to the other side of this incredibly long (and sometimes snarky thread), I have to come to Ernie’s defense, as Dave and Joe have. I don’t see any of the arrogance or dismissiveness of which he’s been accused. Like Dave said,

        I know for a fact that Ernie does not mean to annoy you or anyone else, and he is actually pained by some of the controversy he seems to generate. Joe and I absolutely (and Thinkling too) read a level of subtext in Ernie’s writings that others may be lacking, and I consider him a friend.

        He loves the show and defends his POV with logic. He wants a snark-free environment where people can express their viewpoints. I think, and he can correct me on this part, he gets tired of the negative mantras that invariably keep showing up.

        All of us are a little weary (or a lot) of people who have been doing the blog version of a drive-by … stopping in just to bash the show, or us for our (unenlightened) positive opinions of the show we love. It’s like people coming into our home and criticizing our house and our family (yes the blog is a home of sorts that we’ve created, and my fellow bloggers have become a type of family). Unless I’ve grossly misunderstood us, we want this blog to be a positive place (not dishonestly so, of course) that would make people (a) want to participate in the conversations and (b) go away wanting to watch Chuck. Some of the repetitive negativity leveled at the show and the season that hasn’t even started yet seems counter productive to our purpose for having the blog. We counteract the negativity in different ways, but (most of the time) different ones of us, depending on the issue, will counteract it.

        Ok, so I’ve revealed some personal feelings here. Usually I stick to logic (OK, sometimes passionate logic). I’m not speaking to anyone in particular, but the mood in general.

        Have I mentioned how much I’m looking forward to Chuck S5? 😀 … It’s just that lately I sometimes feel warn out from fighting for my own good mood about the show.

      • Verkan_Vall says:

        Joe, this is your site and I’m a guest here, which means I need to obey your rules, or get out. You have every right to ban me now if you see fit. I had no intention to deliberately goad Ernie when I wrote that post; had I wished to do so, I would have brought the probability to one and dragged in Season 3 and Daniel Shaw. I phrased my question the way I did because:

        1. I write hack and slash fantasy, and the Hero’s Journey is of professional concern to me
        2. In a conversation with my sister-in-law, who was watching the S4 dvds with her children (ages 18-22), she turned to me at one point and said something to the effect of:

        “If Chuck is still whining like a child at the end of the show, what was the point?”

        This woman isn’t stupid, she’s an adult who knows what she does and does not like. There are other people like her and TPTB should take that into account. Personally, I didn’t care for whiney, insecure Chuck, but as long as they give me episodes like Seduction Impossible and Wedding Planner, he can whine all he wants.

        Your site, your rules.

        I will never mention the Hero’s Journey again.
        I will avoid any mention of politics and do my best to leave emotion, drama and bad manners where they belong (under my bed, next to my tequila).
        I will never address or post in response to Ernie Davis, in order to avoid any misunderstandings and because, frankly, from what you and Dave say, I don’t understand him at all.

        You and Dave have an advantage over us guests, Joe. You have context for what Ernie writes; we don’t. We can only judge his posts based on our own experience, and when I encountered this type of thing before, it didn’t end well.

        Joe, I’m not going to lie to you, or make a promise I know I can’t keep. If Ernie tries this “Logic of Convenience” nonsense with me again, I’ll react the same way. If I see him using it on someone else, I’ll probably get involved.

        What do you want me to do?

      • atcDave says:

        VV this may just be a case where you and Ernie are not going to see eye to eye and let it go. I don’t know why so much bad blood developed here (and again, I’m not looking to assign blame; you both likely said some things that the other found provocative). But you are right, Joe and I (and Thinkling, Faith, and Amy) have an advantage in knowing Ernie a little better than visitors to the site do, and you really have to believe us when we say he means no disrespect. Perhaps the way you and he structure arguments are just too different, maybe one or the other of you said something that registered as an insult and started the bad blood a long time ago; I don’t know. But I do know Ernie is a Chuck fan like all of us here and wants to be able to talk about the things he sees and finds interesting in the show just like you and I.
        I also know I more often see the show like you than I do like Ernie; but at the same time, it was because of interactions Amy and I had with him over at the NBC boards that led us to tell Joe “we’ve got to get this guy for our blog!” He takes a more clinical view of things, while I admit I’m more often passionate. But I highly value Ernie’s input and appreciate being challenged in my thinking. He forces me to think about what’s going on beneath the surface and why I like or dislike the things I do (and sometimes forces me to acknowledge a response was just emotional and not rational at all).

        As far as your sister’s reaction to a whiney Chuck; its obvious from discussion here that other viewers had the same impression, so its not out of line. But some of us, like Ernie, also have thoughts on why its not such a big deal and how growth has occurred. When a significant number of fans “take something wrong” its obvious there was at least a little malfunction in the story-telling. But that doesn’t mean you can’t try to explain if you saw things differently, or simply weren’t bothered by the issue. Who knows, it may even help that viewer get over whatever bothered them. I know a lot of little things have come up here that I’ve gained more understanding for after discussion; and a few things I initially liked I’ve come to have problems with! And we all know, certain major isssues that rubbed me wrong still do in a big way!
        Your input is always welcome here VV, and I expect you and I will continue to see the show in much the same way, so please don’t go away! Even if you do see things very differently from other authors or visitors at the site it doesn’t need to be such a big deal. sometimes that will happen. There are clearly comments here that push my buttons sometimes too so I know it isn’t always easy to stay calm. But I’d say go ahead and debate what you take issue with, try not to take things personally, and trust no one is actually TRYING to be a jerk towards you (well, at least none of the six authors are!) If you really feel wronged by a comment go ahead and contact us via e-mail (contact information is available up top) and we’ll see if action or explanations are inorder.

      • Verkan_Vall says:

        @Dave: Ok, let’s try that. (and it was my sister-in-law, actually)

        @Jason: Thanks for the support

        @Thinkling: Yikes! That is easily more than a thousand words total; do you require a reply?

  15. Amrit says:

    This storyline is what you get from Chuck only ever getting half episode orders and that is it. Season 3 and 4 and 5 suffered or will suffer due to the writers not knowing when the end is or how much time they had or will have left. I mean if they had a chance in season 3 to slow burn some of the elements with a guaranteed 22 episode order…they could have explored via flashbacks Shaws character and his relationship with his wife (instead of a crappy romance with Sarah) they could have explored different ideas of Chucks background better. If the show had a guaranteed 4th season they could have spent 24 episodes on Sarah and her flashbacks to her life that gave meaning to the overall narrative and how it corresponds to mama b…they could have really dug into Sarah’s character and what makes her tick. If they had a full season 5 they could have explored Casey all season…what makes him tick, full of flashbacks…etc. These 3 seasons if full 22 episodes then they could have used them to tell great stories of Chuck, Sarah and Casey and how it is all about redemption in one way or another…they dug a great foundation (seasons 1 and 2) to do that laying but since they have been on borrowed time? they have had to blopw their load on half seasons and never ever had the chance to explore important things that fans would love to see. Now what happens when they only get 13 episode orders and have blown all their material? they have to mess around with the intersect mythology, they have to do stupid things like the grettas or stupid love triangles or other stuff that is useless.

    I do not say this to be negative…but that is the problem with network tv..cable shows just get out of the way of the show runners. The networks and studios give time and are not really ratings conscious and just let the show runner do their thing (that is why Mad Men and Breaking Bad and The Wire are considered the best shows in the world). Fringe suffers the same fate…I cannot even keep track of all their stories because they keep on changing stuff due to not knowing how much time they have. I mean the first 4 episodes of season 4 is just been exposition telling fans what mythology exists and what does not due to the ill thought out idea of dissappearing Peter and that is it…so, so, so poor.

    Chuck’s TPTB are not idiots, they are not disconnected with the fan base (totally) they just have to work with what they got…networks, studios, lack of time, lack of money, lack of everything that makes cable shows awesome.

    Morgansect is really them running on fumes to be honest. They will hopefully pull it off but that does not make up for some of the dissappointment. I am sure that they are just as dissappointed as us, but they are humans too, they have feellings and they have dissappointments and they know that this is not ideal…I have faith in them and I think they will do good in the end.

    • Amrit says:

      To add a little bit more, that is why the Chuck and Sarah relationship is still kind of the best thing on the show for me (not because I am a shipper) it is because whatever happens between them, it is material that is based on 3-4 seasons worth of growth and memories that give it that more wieght. The same can be applied to when Casey said he was proud of Chuck or when he said that Chuck is not a killer or that he was smart and did not need the intersect…these moments were built on a foundation of Chuck always suprising Casey and surpassing his expectations…that of a civiliiant trying to do a job of a well trained spy. Those moments were built up and re-enforced time and time again.

  16. Sam Carter says:

    Just saw the 5-min sneak peek.. there is TOO. MUCH. MORGAN.

    Really, the only season I loved the character was S3. He was there in just the right doses, but he was annoying in the rest. I was so upset when he was the one to marry Chuck and Sarah… it just felt like a joke! Nothing against the actor, he’s good, but he’s taking too much away from CHUCK himself. Oh well, other than that it looks promising.

  17. DKD says:

    Honestly, I was apprehensive about the Morgan as Intersect storyline.

    But, the more footage I see from the episodes, the more I think it will turn out just fine. I like the humor I’ve seen from it. It also appears to me like it is a 3-episode arc and the storyline goes elsewhere afterwards. The fears about Chuck and Sarah losing screentime don’t seem borne out in what I’ve seen. Morgan has always had a certain percentage of the screentime. If that increases 5 or 10% for the first three episodes, it is probably just time that various guest protagonists have gotten anyway.

    Plus, I’ve always enjoyed the parts where Chuck proves he can do things without the intersect more than when he’s doing things with it. I was proud of him in season 3 when he realized he was a good shot without the intersect (“No flash necessary”).

    Frankly, the Intersect added up to only an occasional flurry of kung fu most of the time anyway, which really didn’t matter as much to solving the case as Chuck’s natural abilities. Did anyone here still get the same thrill from seeing Chuck flash on an ability as they did when the Intersect 2.0 was new?

    This Morgan thing is just another new challenge for Chuck to take up in which he will surely overcome.

    • DKD – I agree with everything you just said. Someone who has seen the first three eps has already said that they feel more Chuck like than the last two seasons and I have been pretty much in agreement with his take on the last four seasons – so I see this as a good thing.

      They say that last impressions are the most lasting – here’s hoping that season five leaves us with some great ones!leaves us

      • Nervert says:

        “Someone who has seen the first three eps has already said that they feel more Chuck like than the last two seasons”

        This is what I’m hoping for. Everything I’ve read so far has me expecting something great.

    • herder says:

      DR has a review on his site, doesn’t say if he is the reviewer, but rates the first three as good, gooder and awesome or 85, 89 & 95 out of 100. Really that’s all I want is for someone to say that I’ll enjoy it, I don’t want to know all the details, that’s what watching is for. Also this seems to be consistent with what other reviewers are saying.

      • thinkling says:

        That’s super-encouraging, and from what I’ve read, that’s how I feel, too, Herder. I just think it’s going to at least tie my favorite season, if not exceed it. I truly hope it does that for everyone else as well … whatever their favorite season happens to be.

        The first episode will have new norms to establish, many plates to spin, and some lifting to do, so the order doesn’t surprise me.

        Thanks for the good word!

      • Ernie Davis says:

        It has always struck me that Chris Fedak’s season premiers and finales always seem to suffer a bit from, as Thinkling says, all the plates they have to get spinning. He definitely pushes a lot into his episodes, to the point where they often seem like more than one episode. (Think of Ring I and how the epic gun battle to Jeffster was not even the half-way point.)

        It used to bother me a bit, but after re-watching season 3 from Ring I and going into Anniversary, I think I’ve developed an appreciation (or maybe just tolerance) for his style. He seems to start with things seeming to be chaotic and 4 or 5 plots all going different directions, and then somehow coalesce them into a unifying moment that serves as the focus of the season to come, or acts as an epilogue for the season past. I’m quite looking forward to it.

      • atcDave says:

        Thanks Herder that’s very encouraging!

      • joe says:

        Very encouraging. I’m more than a bit behind in all the reviews and review of reviews out there now; I still need to see the EPKs for myself. So all I have is the general tenor of those 1st three episodes. It does seem positive.

        I know what you mean about the chaos, Ernie. I’ve always rather enjoyed it, myself. Burn Notice seems to start and end seasons that way too, but honestly, I find that show much harder to digest. The chaos spins a little too much there for me to keep track of, and for all the confusion, it’s hard for me to say the story lines are as well executed as in Chuck.

      • thinkling says:

        That’s interesting, because I remember last year, there were many positive comments about Anniversary, yet now many consider it one of the weaker episodes. Sounds like that may be the case with Zoom.

        I think premiers and finales are niche type episodes, and Chuck does a good job with both.

  18. Sam Carter says:

    “Still, I can’t think of another show I find nearly as fun to follow, so I’ll trust TPTB to make Morgan the intersect or have Chuck insecure if they think it takes us someplace enjoyable in the end.”

    Yeah, have to agree with that. Chuck is still fun and still entertaining despite its faults. It’s hard to feel that way about most of what’s on TV nowdays honestly. I tried that Terra Nova new show but it was not as entertaining as Chuck. I’m gonna miss it, but I think it’s about time for it to go.

  19. jason says:

    Yesterday, I got to see lots of video, read a fair amount of material about season 5. What I took in leaves me less concerned about Morgan (I wasn’t that concerned anyhow) & overall liking how at least the first three episodes might play out. I still think the Morgan story is going to start off embarrassingly Push Mix laser light like, but I think it will evolve into something much more serious by the middle of Frosted Tips.

    I do wonder if the whole Morgansect thing may become more a challenge to the fan base from a dramatic standpoint versus the embarrassing display of buffoonery that it first appears to be. I welcome a well done serious story between Chuck and Morgan.

    Anyhow, I have hope that Fedak’s love letter to Morgan will be over by the 4th episode. As far as Chuck versus The Intersect, I suppose it is possible that Chuck will not be intersected ever again. I’m OK with that, I wonder what % of the fan base is OK with no more intersect? My guess is this is a 50/50 issue, but I would not be surprised if it is more 85-15, I just wouldn’t know if the 85% want Chuck intersected or not???.

    Since Fedak does not have to worry about ratings or fans any longer, this season is about what he thinks about his show, he can do anything he wants. The interesting ? to me is how much of an intersection there is between Fedak’s very finite remaining story and the fan base’s vast number of ‘expectations’. The greater the intersection, the more this final season will indeed be a ‘love letter’ to the fans as teased this summer. As I think about it, TPTB have their work cut out for them on their journey to deliver that ‘love letter’. Should be an interesting ride!

    • atcDave says:

      I agree with all of that Jason. I know I’m indifferent towards Chuck being Intersected; I have no problem with the idea (why would I be watching this show if I did!), but I’m just as happy to see him be a spy and a team leader without it.
      I also have no doubt a very good story could be told with Morgan and the Intersect, at least for a while.

      And given how completely pleased I was with last season I’m willing to trust them for a little bit. I’m also liking all the clips we’ve seen, and we’re getting good buzz now from screeners of the first three episodes. So I’m ready for good things!

    • dkd says:

      I would be okay if Chuck never gets the intersect again for the same reason.

      About the ratings comment though…
      While they don’t have to worry about renewal, I don’t think they still care about how people react to their work. I think they still will care if someone is watching. It’s very rare for some one in the business of mass entertainment would not care about those things.

      I really need to backtrack to see where this “love letter to fans” started. Was it in a Fedak interview?

  20. Gord says:

    Its no secret that I am not happy about the Morgansect. The promos and sneak peaks confirm that the Morgansect just wont cut it with me. Any of the Morgansect clips I’ve seen, I have not found all that funny.

    That being said, what I have seen of the other aspects of the show for S5 do look pretty good. So for me it will depend on how much time they spend on Morgansect and how much it detracts from my enjoyment of the other parts of the show.

    I just have this horrible feeling that the synopsis for Vs The Zoom could have simply been stated “In this episode Morgan jumps the shark.”

  21. BDaddyDL says:

    The part that really bugs me *spoiler* is S/M dancing. I’d love to see a scene similar to he end of true lies. Alas I don’t think it’ll happen.

    • Nervert says:

      Really? That kinda made me laugh. Maybe it doesn’t bug me as much because I know Strahovski and Gomez get along so well. It just seems cute.

      • BDaddyDL says:

        Sorry for me its the one thing they’ve never done. Chuck was super jealous about the Bryce Sarah dance. They should be able to do a tango act.

      • Nervert says:

        Yeah, I know. Hey, at least they got to do some salsa in The Angel of Death.

      • atcDave says:

        It doesn’t bother me a lot. But it does seem a shame they’ve never done the big formal dance thing when Chuck and Sarah were actually in a good place together.

        I do think Sarah/Morgan will be funny though.

      • atcDave says:

        In fact, unless someone can come up with an exception for me, I don’t think they’ve ever done a happy couple in one of the big dance scenes. Strange.

      • Chuck got a nice (interrupted) dance with Sarah in Ring and an uninterrupted dance with her in Last Details at the rehearsal dinner. They were fancy dances, but they were more Charah.

    • mxpw says:

      I have just been trying to figure out why Sarah and Morgan are dancing in the first place. Are they supposed to be undercover? Because I gotta say, Morgan and Sarah pretending to be a couple is about the worst cover identity ever.

      Talk about stretching my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. Heh.

    • jason says:

      The entire woeful Morgan arc is already worth it for me without ever seeing it, as I have already seen and heard possibly my favorite line in the entire show that did not involve Sarah came from the previews, actually ending the longer preview:

      GBeck’s: ‘What the hedoubleL is wrong with him?’

  22. Sam Carter says:

    @army: “there was also the crisis of confidence with sarah. wasn’t that what the big speech morgan gave to sarah in phase3? she never told him she loved him without the intersect? wasn’t that why he did what he did in FOD? thats what the whole FOD/phase 3 was about, sarah proving to chuck she did love him with or with out the intersect. i say thats close to his fear of bryce or cole. he still didn’t get she loved him for just being him.”

    I never got why he would feel so insecure about her love at that stage of their relationship; she did tell him at the end of S3 that she fell in love with a regular guy. I just didn’t like FOD at all. It’s one of the worst eps in the series, IMO.

    • armysfc says:

      Sam, exactly. we were discussing if there was a whiny insecure chuck in season 4. i thought FOD/ phase3 was a good example. i also thought FOD was a pit episode and among the worst as well.

      • OldDarth says:

        Totally agree Sam & Army with your points about FOD & Chuck’s whininess during the Intersectless arc. Throw in Morgan getting most of Chuck’s better qualities, Chuck dealing with his mother, & S4 was the poorest season for the Chuck character.

        At times he was unrecognizable.

      • armysfc says:

        joe and dave. i wasn’t saying he didn’t have a reason and as screwed up as they were i can understand them. sam replied to a comment i made above that whiny insecure chuck made an appearance in season 4. i gave some examples. ernie made this comment, “Chuck being just as whiny and insecure in the last season as in the first begs the question. He isn’t, and hasn’t been for quite some time.” myself and others were saying he did act like that at times. based on what you two just said, you saw it as well.

    • joe says:

      That’s interesting, guys. Don’t you think that Chuck was right, though?

      Sarah’s been slow all along to take each step. She bailed for 6 months when Chuck told her that he wanted to not run away in Prague, she resisted moving in (Role Models), she was very late to say the words “I love you” (The Tooth), resistant to the wedding planning (FBoE) and anything larger than a civil ceremony (Seduction Impossible and sort-of, The Wedding Planner).

      Failing to tell Chuck that she didn’t love him for being the Intersect seems ridiculous (and probably not at all realistic), but it is in character. His reaction to all that (basically, being patient and having dreams about the situation) seems more realistic. Doesn’t it?

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Joe I had no problem with it at all. The situation sort of played to both of their weaknesses; Chuck should have known how she felt, but was insecure and missed it. Sarah should have been specific when Chuck lost the intersect, but she was reticent and didn’t.

      • armysfc says:

        whoops, my last post was supposed to go here, can it get moved? thanks in advance if it can!

      • joe says:

        @Armysfc

        joe and dave. i wasn’t saying he didn’t have a reason and as screwed up as they were i can understand them. sam replied to a comment i made above that whiny insecure chuck made an appearance in season 4. i gave some examples. ernie made this comment, “Chuck being just as whiny and insecure in the last season as in the first begs the question. He isn’t, and hasn’t been for quite some time.” myself and others were saying he did act like that at times. based on what you two just said, you saw it as well.

        Can’t move it wholesale, Army. But I’m hoping this will do.

        I see what you mean about Chuck not completely losing the whining. From his point of view, he hasn’t. He’s the same ol’ Chuck on the inside.

        But from what I see from the outside, he’s actually keeping the whining to himself pretty much (excepting the occasional conference with Morgan). That seems to be pretty reasonable, given Sarah’s inability to express her emotions during that stretch.

        We are sensitized to it, though.

      • atcDave says:

        I did see some of his usual insecurity, but very little that struck me as whiney. I had earlier asked for examples of what bothered people; and a few were provided. The scene in the vault from FOD seems to be unpopular, I had forgotten the whining part, what I remembered was how Chuck had used his brains to learn gemology, which is exactly the sort of behavior I always want to see from Chuck.
        Someone else mentioned the mom interrogation from Leftovers, which I also can’t argue with, except to say it didn’t bother me. I thought it was funny and over with quickly.

        My main impression of Chuck in S4 is how he grew into a team leader. He has been a little whiney from the start of the show, but I thought this last season we saw very little of it. I mostly remember him as the mature hero. When he gets upset it’s generally been with good cause, or at least something that we’ve always known is a hot button with him.

      • armysfc says:

        Joe, Thanks!

      • armysfc says:

        Joe, Dave…i understand what you guys are saying. it comes back to the same old same old. things we find unimportant we tend to forget or ignore, things we feel are important we remember. i hate screwed up time frames like in gobbler or cat squad, so i notice it more. i could care less about the hero’s journey so things that make it fit i don’t notice.

        i don’t think every viewer is the same but on the average i think i’m close to what most people do.

      • atcDave says:

        Army I think your last point is actually the most contentious part of this discussion. Because I would say exactly the same thing, I think my viewpoint is more typical of the audience at large.
        Although as I’ve suggested before, the main thing it likely proves is we each hang out with people who are more like ourselves and share viewpoints similar to our own.

        So while I’ve been reminded here of a few scenes where Chuck was whiney and annoying, it wasn’t ever a lasting impression of the season to me. I remembered Chuck the leader, and Chuck and Sarah as a team and the power couple, with only a few glitches along the way.
        Of course I also liked and related to Chuck ever since the Pilot, and except for the one season that shall not be mentioned I have been pleased with his growth and development. I believe you’ve mentioned not liking Chuck from the beginning, so it’s not surprising you would continue to be unsympathetic towards certain quirks that don’t bother me.

      • ArmySFC says:

        Dave, i’d like to clear up a misconception you may have about me. i work with people that the median age would be23-25. i’m over 50. i hang out with the same crew. for the most part our views on everything differ, sometimes by a lot. we talk about everything from TV, music, and movies to politics and religion. that’s why i feel i have a good idea of what younger people enjoy, and to a certain extent what the typical audience, of any show, at large likes. the base line i use is so varied compared to most people, who like you just said tend to hang out with people that share the same views and ideas.

        my group is so wide and varied it encompasses most types of backgrounds, likes and dislikes. it’s for those reasons i sometimes disagree with the comments people make about the general fan base and how they feel.

        as for chuck himself, i don’t dislike him, i just can’t identify with him. now if you said i hated morgan, you’d be spot on.

      • atcDave says:

        Army I could say exactly the same thing about co-workers and friends. At 48 I’m near the top of the age range at work, the other Chuck fans I know include those older and younger, men and women (and kids), with college degrees and without, evangelical Christians and avowed atheists, Democrats and Republicans.
        But I really don’t think any of those things reflect on taste in entertainment. Because none of those people complain about Chuck whining, time line problems, or continuity in general. They did however complain when the show went too dark for one season, when wt/wt was dragged out too long, and when Chuck became a habitual liar. They mostly get excited when things go well for Charah, they love laughing at Morgan (far more than I do), and very much like the friends and family aspect of the show.

        None of what I said proves anything about the show or people. It only proves that i’m more likely to converse at length with people who like what I like. And THAT is what I think causes the biggest discrepancy in how we view the reaction of casual viewers.

      • ArmySFC says:

        Dave we kind of agree. i will say that certain beliefs do affect what type of entertainment people watch. i doubt homophobes would ever watch a show dealing with a same sex couples and same sex relationships. i could list other examples but here is one that stands out to me. there have been many discussions here dealing with why people leave a show. many ideas have been thrown around from an event on the show to external forces.

        CBS stated last week that the ratings for 2.5 men was down 40% from the third week. the reason they stated was the infidelity of ashton kutcher came out during that span. they listed the the affected groups. the bottom line is because of what he did turned fans off to him and thus the show.

      • atcDave says:

        I think you’re right about all of that army. Funny thing about 2.5 Men; my wife and I used to occasionally watch when it was on after Everybody Loves Raymond. We both felt the show was often funny, when it wasn’t too raunchy. I remember when Ashton Kutcher was signed my wife made the comment that maybe we should watch again to help prove the show didn’t need “that nut job.” But then we read the studio bragging that the show would be as outrageous and irreverent as ever, and we both said “never mind, pass.”

  23. Sam Carter says:

    @amrit: “Morgansect is really them running on fumes to be honest. They will hopefully pull it off but that does not make up for some of the dissappointment. I am sure that they are just as dissappointed as us, but they are humans too, they have feellings and they have dissappointments and they know that this is not ideal…I have faith in them and I think they will do good in the end.”

    I agree with all of that. I think the pace of most of the series has been impacted by the fear of cancellation. My guess is they felt they HAD to rush the story they wanted to tell in case they didn’t come back. I guess is the nature of the beast. It’s sad the network didn’t have a bit more faith in the show things could have been a bit better. I still love a lot of it. Think they did an overall good job. It’s definitely been a really fun ride for me. I’m honest when I say that I want it to end on a good note.

  24. Sam Carter says:

    @Olddarth: Agreed. I’m sorry for Linda Hamilton, I think they made made a mess of her arc, and I never felt a real connection between her and her children (especially Chuck). The Orion character and his relationship with his children was handled sooooo much better, imo. Linda was amazing in the Terminator movies, but she was annoying as Mama B. The Agent X twist didn’t help at all.

    Any way, it looks like no one is going to ‘win’ the whiny Chuck argument. We like what we like. To some, as long as Chuck and Sarah are mostly happy together, nothing else matter much. But some of us require more than that, a more compelling and exciting story that goes beyong the romance and that involves all the elements that make this show good. I’m still watching, though, because yeah, I still like it enough. Let’s hope season 5 is decent.

    • Amron says:

      Agree. Without an exciting story, this show stops to be so special and starts to become into a soap opera. Bring back the balance and we all going to be fine

    • atcDave says:

      Sam you continue to insult every one of the authors at this site. All six of us loved S4 for a variety of reasons. Obviously Charah is a big part of it; but we have explained time after time our affection for so many elements of this past season. From a wickedly funny villain in Dalton; to many elements of the Frost story (especially the Mary/Ellie scenes); to major character growth for Chuck, Sarah, Morgan, and Casey; to a lot of fun and exciting stunt work.

      It is absolutely not fair to anyone to characterize those of us who loved S4 as being interested in only one dimension of the show. There are many shows that do only satisfy me in one dimension. Those shows will never be favorites of mine. Chuck is a great show on multiple levels and is the most completely satisfying program I have ever seen in my life, no hyperbole involved.

  25. For people who like to look at coincidences and claim foreshadowing, I’ll point to the second episode, “Chuck vs. the Helicopter”. Right after Morgan fails the LargeMart tablecloth magic trick, Beckman and Graham watch the surveillance footage…

    Beckman:Our most valuable secrets have been sent to an idiot.
    Graham: Well, at least they weren’t sent to his friend.

    Four years later, we get to see what Graham feared most.

  26. BDaddyDL says:

    Just Finished reading a few parts of the TV guide article on Chuck. For the first time I am looking forward to the morgansect. It looks like Chuck is special, If what i read is accurate than This could build mythology, not tear it down.

    • atcDave says:

      That’s awesome to hear bdaddy!

    • ArmySFC says:

      i would agree if they hadn’t pointed out there is a bad script in the intersect. how it got there is the question. was it there before and chuck could handle it, proving how special he is, or was it introduced to make chuck compliant. if it’s the first option then it proves to me he was special. if it was the later, morgans failure to use it will not prove that chuck was special, because they introduced a variable into the equation that chuck did not have to deal with. depending on which way it goes will effect how it relates to the mythology.

      the other thing to keep in mind is the intersect has been redone and improved since chuck got it first in season 1. there have been quite a few folks that have gotten and used it, to a certain extent over the last few seasons. i guess it will go where the show runners want to get whatever point across they want to make.

      • atcDave says:

        Of course there’s a lot of way’s we could see Chuck is special that don’t necessarily relate to if his Intersect was flawed or not; especially if he’s able to help Morgan deal with it better, fix the flawed code, or somehow take the flawed program back on himself and use it effectively.

        But my money is just on the idea that Chuck could take on super-powers without becoming a meglomaniac. It already looks like it will go to Morgan’s head quite quickly. I love the spoiler clip from Bearded Bandit with General Beckman. Very funny, and possibly very telling.

      • ArmySFC says:

        dave i agree, it’s just in released spoilers it is the code that turns morgan into what he becomes. that’s my only real issue. to me they have shown he is special and need not waste any time one it at all.

  27. jason says:

    Morgansect vs Intersect & whiny Chuck vs smart, loyal, leader Chuck, if those are the two most important ‘VS’s’ fans have left to worry about then TPTB aren’t doing too many things wrong with S5 (or with how s4 ended). I predict those will not be many fans two most pressing issues by seasons end, for all it is worth.

    One thing about hapless Chuck, several of you have written he is less whiny than he used to be, I tend to agree. But, keep this one thing in mind when applying that logic to debate those who find hapless Chuck annoying. If Chuck and Sarah were still not 100% committed, that would be unacceptable based on the story we’ve been told, even if they were more committed than they used to be. So using that anecdotal logic, it is not delusional for reasonable fans to find the level of Chuck’s whininess (my spell check isn’t buying off on that word, don’t know how else to spell it) to be annoying, even if less so than it used to be.

    As much as I dislike Morgan, I do not think Morgansect is going to ruin the show, or Orion’s legacy, or Chuck’s specialness. I think he will embarrass himself early in the arc (like he did in Push Mix), then I predict he is going to do a pretty decent dramatic job (Gomez has done pretty well with drama all 4 seasons) in and around the third episode, driving home the point of the Morgansect story to all of us in decent fashion. We’ll all know soon enough.

    • BigKev67 says:

      @Jason,
      Hope you’re right. I have a wishlist for S5 but two are non-negotiable. One is that TPTB don’t screw up Sarah’s mom (I’d love Emma to be as good as PapaB or Jack, but after MamaB, I’ll settle for them not screwing her story up) but the second is to give Chuck himself a compelling story that gets back to a hero’s journey and a greater good, and doesn’t just involve some decent moments in the finale. I’m hoping a well written conspiracy storyline will be a framework for that. We’ll see.

      • jason says:

        Kev – I hope you get your two non-negotiables. My only real non-negotiable, is that Chuck and Sarah don’t get screwed up and and that they take this season’s journey together, no kidnappings, blackmail, hospital beds, or other story contrivances keeping them apart.

        I would like to add a vote for your ‘greater good’ theme. But that has been missing in action for most of this show for how much it has been talked about, or at least vs how much other shows focus on the greater good.

        For example, as much as most liked season 2, the real danger was to Chuck, Sarah, Casey, his dad, and finally to his sister. I can link the Ring’s defeat to the greater good, but it is not a direct link I felt, I didn’t see the story of the danger on screen, no ticking bomb, no panic at the white house or the CIA over the Ring, it was all stuff I had to imagine. Anyhow, I hope s5 gets it right for you and others who did not love s4, but stuck with the show, just as s4 got it right for those who stuck with the show thru s3 in spite of s3.

  28. Dale says:

    Just listen to Fienberg and Sepinwalls latest podcast and they basically said that the whole morgansect will be done by the end of episode 3…or they will rush through a lot of it. But they also said that they are rushing through the money premise too and being spies for hire as well…So whatever happened in the last 10 minuted of season may all be reset very soon in some way or another…apart from the Chuck and Sarah marriage that is.

    • ArmySFC says:

      here’s the link to the pod cast. also beware if you want a rosy review of the first three episodes this may not be for you.

      http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/the-fien-print/posts/listen-firewall-iceberg-podcast-no-100

      • atcDave says:

        Don’t be scaring people off army! It wasn’t that bad! In a nutshell, they felt the first two episodes were lacking; and rushed the Morgansect and Volkoff wealth story-lines; but the third episode seemed to be pretty well received. They generally observed that the third and fourth seasons had structural problems that the second did not, which strikes me as irrelevant to an S5 discussion.

        My own editorial comment on that would be its a rare day when I see eye to eye with professional critics anyway. Much of their complaint seemed to focus on the idea they were getting tired of the show. While I don’t mean to be totally dismissive of what they said, I’ll decide for myself when I’m tired of the show. We’ve previously seen fan reviews (ChuckTV if memory serves) that were considerably more enthused with the first three. I’ve loved the clips I’ve seen and remain quite excited.

      • jason says:

        Dave / Army – I agree with Dave on this one, the review seemed consistent with everything else I’ve read. Sounds like the early Morgansect is going to be gruesome, and then will gradually recover by the third ep, possibly even ending at the end of the third ep. The rest of everything seems OK to me, we’ll find out soon enough how good it is soon now, I am excited for Friday!

      • armysfc says:

        you hit the nail on the head as to why i said that. the other three were very good, but also chuck friendly sites. this one was not even close to being in the same venue so i wanted to warn folks it was not as favorable as the others.

        the general idea i got was they felt the first three were a waste leading up 4 where the season really starts. which to me seems a shame knowing you have 13. also they felt that the lead ins of 4.24 were wasted. but thats my take i’m sure others will have their own.

      • Dale says:

        They do not have the budget to show team Bartowski as billionaires! I mean did people see the Blu Ray season 4 commentary on First Fight…they could not go to the cockpit because they had no budget to build one so all the action stayed in the passenger area. This show as much as I love it to bits just does not have the money to so extravagant story lines. I am not worried either, I mean for the Morgansect to actually work they would need to hire a stunt guy every episode to do all the fight work and that is not possible, it is easier to get Zac, Yvonne and Adam who do mostly their own stunts to do it for free! Plus they have done if for longer and look more bad ass. Them resetting the story reminds me of the end of season 3..we all thought that Chuck would be without the buymore and would be Orion, that never materialised…they put him back with the CIA and everything back to normal. The same will happen here apart from it will take 3 episodes to reset everything. Chuck will be working for the CIA again but as a contractor (not much of a difference..lol), they will get their briefs from General Beckman and the show will have it’s direction again from them.

        If they just had a budget..they could actually follow through on some of these arcs…I would have loved to see Chuck as Orion or them as actual freelance spies. Right now though…if all they do all season is get the chuck and sarah relationship right…then that would be a good season..like season 4 and parts of 3 and mostly 2 and 1. That is the level they have to achieve…just get the Chuck and Sarah relationship right…that has been the key the whole series I suppose..that is the only constant (get it! Lost) they have needed.

      • DKD says:

        Something I took away from their comments about it feeling “rushed” was that, perhaps, Fedak wants to get through the early Morgansect stuff quickly. Maybe the fan reaction had an impact.

        It almost sounded to me like they wanted the Morgansect story spread out more. That’s something I do not want. Therefore, the review didn’t bother me that much.

      • Gord says:

        The Sepenwall blog was certainly not as rosey as some, although probably closer to the truth. The Chucktv crowd tend to love everything this show does. However, from the previews and promos I have seen of S5, I am more inclined to believe the Sepenwall blog. Most of the jokes I have seen in the promos have fallen flat for me, and the Morgansect action sequences are a real snoozefest.

        I think Chuck himself has summed up early S5 best – “We are still working out the kinks”. Question is wiith only 13 episodes and a fanbase already divided on Morgansect will they get S5 to a place where people want to keep watching? Also, NBC has been quick to pull some series from their schedule, so if the ratings tank those fans that are willing to stick with it might not get their full 13 episodes anyways.

      • JC says:

        I listened to Mo Ryan and Ryan McGee’s podcast, they seemed to be middle of the road in their opinions. A more comedic Burn Notice. They enjoyed them but it seemed liked they weren’t completely sold either. What the show normally does great was strong but the other stuff not so much. Carrie Anne Moss is strongest of the guest stars so far and gets what type of show Chuck is.

        McGee seemed to have some problems with the mythology, conspiracy angle and was the less enthusiastic of the two but not down on it either if that makes sense. My guess if the spy stuff and mythology didn’t work for you last season it’s more of the same.

        Here’s the link
        http://web.me.com/mcgeeryan/The_Pod_Squad/Talking_TV_with_Ryan_and_Ryan/Talking_TV_with_Ryan_and_Ryan.html

      • armysfc says:

        JC, thanks! my take on the mythology was the same as yours.

      • jason says:

        Mo Ryan annoys me to no end, she typically expresses my own POV with a few well chosen words better than I can with volumes. I found myself nodding in agreement with much of what both the podcasters had to say.

        My only new issue I came away with was how much the pair emphasized a fear that Fedak is taking on too much story. I did not get enough detail to know exactly what they were referring to. But it was pretty clear that neither of the podcasters trust the story tellers with a complex serialized story & would be very much OK with 13 procedurals. Again, I am listening and nodding.

        It sounds like the new house thing will go away after the first ep, the other podcaster made a point that he’d be ok if the show just ended with Chuck giving Sarah that dream house at the end of 5×13, me too.

      • Faith says:

        Ditto on Mo.

      • Dale says:

        What did I say about the only thing the show should stick with until the end??? the Chuck and Sarah Relationship!!!!! i.e. The only constant in the series! Ryan’s reviews are fantastic and he understands the problems the show goes through. He knows that it is so unfair for a show to only live on half seasons like Chuck and he explains it as well. I think they were both saying that and so did Sepinwall..that the only season that was truely great was season 2 and that was because they got a full season order early. This is not the shows fault that they cannot maintain their mythology. I agree that just have Chuck give Sarah her perfect house and that will be awesome!

  29. SarahSam says:

    Ugh. Interesting comments.Come on Friday!!

  30. Having Morgan on a mission reminds me of Marshall Flinkman in Alias (played by the evil gymnist from Truth). In Alias, I always thought his missions were hilarious, which was especially great on a show that was much more focused on drama and had only small samples of humor. Marshall used the Ewok language as diversionary tactic, provided tech support for a mission while printing out a license for the Internet Chuck of Mammals so a coworker could marry him to his girlfriend who was in labor, and was once kissed by Sydney (the female lead) to give him adrenalin to fight the effects of a tranq. A lot of Chuck fandom doesn’t like the idea of mission comic relief like the Sarah/Morgan dance and Morgan Vader, though. Everyone would freak out if Sarah kissed Morgan to fight the effects of a tranq.

    Speaking of Alias, its leads had 3 and 2 OLIs. However two of those were between get togethers (imagine Chuck and Sarah basically living together for six months before Prague, then Sarah goes off and marries Shaw before Chuck gets back from training). No matter what anyone tells me, I will always prefer what they did in the first half of Chuck season 3 to the travesty that was the first half of Alias season 3. Oh crap, Chuckwin’s law!

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