Chuck is coming to Netflix!

From Yahoo:

“This unprecedented agreement brings to Netflix members earlier and more exclusively than ever before complete previous seasons of some of the most prominent and successful shows on network and cable television,” Ted Sarandos, Netflix chief content officer, said in a statement.

This is great news not just to get Chuck out there…the more people with eyes on our favorite show, the better; but also for us gadget folks who don’t have nearly as much space for all of Chuck in our devices. Chuck has been available on Netflix UK since late last year.

Now there will be no more excuses [for subscribers] to miss our Chuck rewatch. Heh.


About Faith

Eternally faith-ful at least as it relates to my beloved Los Angeles Lakers. Yes that's where the username comes from. Other than that self-professed Chuckaholic, Laker blogger and part time internet addict. Ok, full time.
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350 Responses to Chuck is coming to Netflix!

  1. garnet says:

    Great news Faith! Now all we need is the announcement that they are commissioning original episodes like they did with Arrested Development!

  2. Rob Beard says:

    Just checked Netflix in the UK and it appears Chuck isn’t available. Shame really as I was looking forward to sitting down and catching up on it. Firefly is though, so I guess I’ll watch that, then the Serenity DVD I picked up last year 🙂

    • Faith says:

      Really? That’s surprising. Their agreement was inked last November so you’d think it would be there by now.

    • joe says:

      Please keep us informed on that, Rob. Chuck has always had a strong international following, and more of that won’t hurt our chances when it comes time to decide on making a movie.

  3. uplink2 says:

    This is great news because without Netflix and syndication there really was no chance of there ever being a movie. I’m not saying it will make the difference but only that without it, it was never going to happen.

    • dkd says:

      It’s good to see that Chuck will get some new income. But, I’m still curious as to why it’s taken so long to ink a regular syndication deal for the show. Netflix is good for people seeking out the show. It’s subscriber base for its streaming service, though, is 25 million in the U.S. That’s about 22% of U.S. households. If the show started rerunning on a cable channel, it would have more opportunity to be discovered by people not seeking it out and chancing upon it.

      Whether Netflix wants to do more with Chuck like they have with Arrested Development is now up to how many people actually stream it. We’re beyond the world of ratings folks. These guys don’t estimate how many people watch based on a sample. They’ll know exactly how many watched.

    • uplink2 says:

      I know I may take some grief from a few folks about this but I absolutely believe that the response to the finale has contributed to the lack of a syndication deal. Towards the end Chuck’s avid fanbase had already shrunk in great part by the fracturing of the fanbase caused by the story choices and execution of season 3. Add in the fracturing that happened in season 4 and the response to the finale and you have a much smaller fanbase to draw from.

      I know for me it took almost an entire year before I had any desire to rewatch a single episode in its entirety because of how I responded to the un-satisfying, to me, ‘artistic’ ending we got. Why would I want to retake their journey if the most important character on the show for me may never remember much about it? What’s the point? I’ve also talked to many very passionate fans of the show that feel exactly the same way. So if a large group of the remaining fans of the show don’t want to invest their time in retaking that journey, then why should a programmer invest their money to show it?

      Now will that change eventually? I hope so. I re-watched Colonel a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed it but my passion to do a full rewatch, except never season 3.0 of course, hasn’t returned like I hoped it would. With the Netflix deal I hope it generates enough interest that someone like SciFi pics it up. Yvonne’s career success may help as well. I’m hoping that once Thor 2 is released Zac’s career will take off equally.

      But the lack of a syndication deal has been very troubling. It certainly had enough episodes. The only conclusion that makes sense to me at least on some level is the destination we got hasn’t inspired many to take the journey again.

      • Mel says:

        The ending definitely made sure I don’t want to re-watch anything. What’s the point when Sarah ends up not remembering anything, all the wonderful moments wasted.

        Wish I could look at it in some other way, but I can’t.

      • atcDave says:

        I agree Uplink. Too many Chuck viewers I know were quite bitter about that end. But this Netflix deal is, in some ways, better than syndication. With Yvonne’s popularity on the rise, and the possibility of Zach’s going up too, it could make the property more valuable in the next couple years. Although of course, more popular actors could be a double edged sword (gee, what about that Remington Steele reunion project…)

        But for now, this is good news. Only the future will tell if its very good news, or just false hope.

      • Mel says:

        Before I forget, this was tweeted earlier today:

        I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere else, so I’d take it with a grain of salt right now. I do like Alexis Bledel a lot, most famous for playing Rory on Gilmore Girls.

      • atcDave says:

        That’s great news, thanks Mel.

      • Wilf says:

        The ending destroyed it for me, at least initially and I’ve never got to the point since then where I think it was all anything like 100% OK. However, although I might one day stream this show via Netflix (and I am quite happy to re-watch Chuck these days), I’d have thought that rentals through that medium would be more likely to be for new viewers than old fans of the show – or am I wrong?

      • uplink2 says:

        Oh I agree Dave. The Netflix deal is better but much of the problems with that deal were because of WB’s not accepting the changing viewer habits and fighting Netflix. Plus it is a package deal and Chuck is simply part of the package and probably not the driving force.

        Not to sound unhappy but a Hallmark Hall of Fame TV movie? Isn’t that kind of C and D class level? I know its work but still it seems a bit odd.

      • Mel says:

        Assuming this is even true (no other sources have reported it), I’d guess shooting it would be a pretty fast process so why not.

      • atcDave says:

        We watch a lot of Hallmark movies. No doubt the quality is uneven. But I think they are shot in a couple weeks and keep some moderately well known actors working between bigger jobs. I’d rank them above reality shows, but below scripted shows on better known networks.

      • Faith says:

        Speaking of movies…

        I love Christmas movies!

      • Uplink,

        I totally agree that the ending really left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths, and I’m stopping my rewatch at Chuck vs the Baby (IMO, it works as a series finale). When fans fight so hard to keep you employed, you give them a happily ever after ending. An open ending is acceptable for Lost, Battlestar Galactica, or 24. But not for Chuck.

        The only acceptable ending was Chuck and Sarah living happily ever after.

      • dkd says:

        In order the ending to be a factor in Chuck’s value for syndication, we’d have to assume that the typical programmer at the cable networks is highly hooked into Chuck fandom. And I mean HIGHLY immersed into it. Even a casual google search would not reveal it.

        I’m not sure that would be the case.

        If they examined the ratings, they’d see a steady decline in Chuck’s ratings over the course of Season 4 and ratings in Season 5 that were surprisingly low even for a Friday show. They’d see the finale was the highest rated episode of season 5.

        It’s well known that serialized shows don’t have as much value in syndication as episodic ones. It doesn’t even matter how high the ratings were. ER and Lost never did well in syndication. Many a network has been burnt by over-paying for the syndication rights of a serialized show. On top of that, “cult” shows don’t do that well even on cult-ish networks. Battlestar Galactica repeats never did well on the Syfy Channel and Syfy is the network that ran it initially. It’s playing on BBC America to low ratings.

        So there are some hurdles just because of the kind of show Chuck was. But, still, I thought a small cable network might pick it up. The early seasons aren’t THAT serialized. It may have a “cult” following, but it’s not THAT cult-ish. The romance isn’t the only reason people enjoyed the show, even though it was the reason some people obsessed over it.

        I never expected a bigger network to buy it, though.

      • dkd says:

        Oh….On the Hallmark movie.

        I haven’t seen any confirmation of Zac being in it, but it’s possible. It is filming in New Orleans and I’ve seen confirmation that Alexis Bledel is there. Bystanders saw her. A New Orleans film website says it is filming until February. I also found something that said the movie was about a guy who has lost his short-term memory.

        Hallmark movies aren’t to my taste. Way too wholesome. But, going for a drama after Chuck and Thor 2 would be an interesting career choice for Zac.

  4. So… does Zach doing that Lifetime movie mean that Guardians of the Galaxy is a no go?

    • jam says:

      No casting announcements have been made about GotG yet, possibly doing this movie certainly won’t affect that since filming is unlikely to take more than a week or so.

      And Robert, Honeymooners and the finale are in no way comparable, to suggest C&S’s relationship is in the same place after them is pretty ridiculous.

  5. Wow, everyone is negative. Hallmark Hall of Fame movies are different than Hallmark Channel original movies and are not on Lifetime, the competition. They normally broadcast the movie initially on network TV and then rerun several times on Hallmark Channel. They are promoted heavily on TV, in Gold Crown stores, and even in mailings to Gold Crown card holders. Wikipedia: “The series has received eighty Emmy Awards, twenty-four Christopher Awards, eleven Peabody Awards, nine Golden Globes, and four Humanitas Prizes.” In the last ten years, actors have included Oscar winners and nominees Cuba Gooding Jr., Martin Landau, Glenn Close, and Laurence Fishburne. The Dec 9 HHOF got a 1.8. The April 22 HHOF got a 1.6. They also do very well with women and seniors, who are the advertisers’ target demos.

    Even five of the twelve Hallmark Channel original movies were the highest rated shows on cable on their premiere day. That’s better publicity than a lot of movies.

    Chuck’s lack of syndication deal has nothing to do with the ending. The traditional rule was 100 episodes. By that measure, Chuck’s fate was sealed when it was not upped to 100 episodes at the end of season 4. The fact that they left it so close but short of 100 meant they were not trying. 100 episodes typically gets easy promotion from shows like ET. NBC didn’t even try for that. In the past few years, the shows that got syndication deals were they are still in production and did not have a threat of cancellation hanging overhead. That means Chuck’s syndication fate was sealed after season 2.

    Bones, Castle, Mentalist, NCIS, NCIS:LA, House, and the CSIs all got deals after three seasons, while still under production, I don’t know the timing on all of them, but Castle’s deal was mid third season, and it’s cancellation has never been close to an issue. Mentalist got a deal really early. What do those shows have in common? 1) They are not on NBC. 2) They are crime dramas.

    I never could figure out a network that would want Chuck. Too serial and not serious enough for TNT, though it does have the WB connection. TNT switched to marathon days a couple years ago, which requires more episodes. That’s probably why Castle was delayed over a year after the original planned date. They wanted more episodes so they could schedule ten at a time. USA is the House/NCIS network. They play NCIS instead of reruns of their own shows. They don’t need Chuck. Also NBC execs don’t like Chuck, so why would they help it out. SyFy has the same issue, plus it’s a reality/contest/wrestling network now. Chuck’s one syndication foray was pre-season 3 on SyFy. I assume it didn’t do well because very little does well on that network except wrestling. A&E? Bravo? No and no. It’s too serious for Comedy Central. Spike and FX are the only networks that makes slight sense to me, and they mainly syndicate sitcoms.

    Despite all of this, the bottom line is syndication deals are decided by people who want to make money, not finale reception (which I feel like I must remind everyone was much higher for regular viewers than they type of people who post on Chuck boards–see many posts back in February about ratings on non-Chuck sites). Chuck’s _Nielsen_ ratings were not the type that could be sold to an ad exec. Ad exec’s don’t care what is on message boards after a finale. They might care about Chuck being on the top ten list for TV shows searched for on the Internet in 2012. That was helped but the finale, not hurt by it.

    I don’t have Netflix, but that seems like a better fit to me. It’s better than two months on TV, then never to seen again.

  6. Robert says:

    Chuck on Netflix is good news; everything that keeps the show on the map is a good thing! I don’t expect a Chuck reunion anytime soon, but hey, who knows? It can’t hurt!

    As for those complaining AGAIN about the Finale and how it was SO not what they were expecting; well I kind of find it funny, because the Finale followed the exact same pattern than episode 3.13, and it ended with almost the exact same words, and the same way; Chuck and Sarah kissing, making us understand that they were in love AND a couple. And that’s also what we saw in the beach scene, and that’s exactly what TPTB were making us understand in 5.13, amnesia notwithstanding.

    Of course, we saw what happened next with Honeymooners, but had it been the end, we would never had known what happened to them specifically, but everything that happened since 1.01 was enough to make us believe and understand that they were a couple and that their relationship would last. It’s the SAME DAMN THING with 5.13, whether you like it or not! The SAME!

    • Faith says:

      There’s really no point Robert. I liked it, and that will have to be enough for me…it’s all about individual feelings at this point. Though I so wish I didn’t have to read so much negativity on a daily basis. Woman can only take so much.

      • Robert says:

        That’s what I meant, Faith. So sick of reading “Oh I hated the Finale, and by the way, did I tell you that I hated the Finale?” time and again! Allright, WE GET IT! Can’t you just discuss about something else? Geez!

      • atcDave says:

        The finale hasn’t been brought up for weeks. You have to know it will generate intense reactions every time it does come up. That won’t change. I’m somewhat annoyed by both extremes of reaction, but that is now a permanent part of the Chuck legacy (well, maybe not if we eventually get a movie that really sets everything right), we’re stuck with it.

      • jam says:

        Don’t expect the finale hate to die anytime soon…

        As for the post Chuck careers of the cast,… Yvonne is undoubtedly the most talented actor of the bunch, but I’d still bet Zac will end up becoming the biggest name. He has already been a Disney Prince and will be in a Marvel superhero movie later this year. He also has fans outside of tv/film, sorta like Nerdist (Chris Hardwick) and Felicia Day do.

      • joe says:

        Indeed, Jam. I fully expect everyone to continue to say their peace (that’s the right word) about the finale and all the other episodes, whether they liked it or not.

        After all, I started this thing as a place to express what I was feeling about the show. I can’t very well deny people the opportunity to do the same, can I? All I ask is that other POVs be considered respectfully. When expressing yourself, give others a chance to be persuaded by writing respectfully too, (Oh, and just don’t be surprised if no one changes their mind, btw…) 😉

        Yeah, I think Yvonne and Zac are going to be around for a while yet. I expect to see Zac on the other side of the camera more, though – you know; directing, producing.

        I won’t be surprised to see Sarah Lancaster as the star of her own show someday soon either. She’s got what it takes, except that it always needs some luck too.

    • uplink2 says:

      Wow, hey I respect other peoples opinions but to compare 3.13 and 5.13 and say that they are the same thing is just beyond me. Sorry Robert but not even close. I’m not going to waste anyone’s time by reading a point by point comparison but if you think they are the same and you reacted the same emotionally then more power to you. I, and I know quite a few that agree with me, didn’t. 3.13 works so well for me in many ways BECAUSE we got Honeymooners. If it had been the series finale I would have been disappointed that we had to go through 12.5 episodes of pure agony for 5 minutes of Chuck and Sarah together. 8 episodes of horrible, unwanted, poorly executed LI geometry so bad that it makes the good stuff in those episodes unwatchable for me. All that so we could get a couple of scenes of our beloved couple expressing how they felt about each other. I didn’t want to just see them get together, I wanted to see them BE together. Schwedak’s comments about being shocked about how great they were together astounded me because it is so clueless. But as many voted back then the end in 3.13 wasn’t worth the journey of 3.1 – 3.12 they put us through. What makes it work is what comes after it. With 5.13 its the exact opposite. Their great journey didn’t deserve that ‘artistic’ ending. It deserved a satisfying one and for many it wasn’t.

      And Jeff, the difference between 91 and 100 episodes had absolutely nothing to do with getting a syndication deal or not. Poor DVD sales, low ratings, a seriously fractured fanbase and very mixed response to the finale all played at least some role in the lack of a deal. The few fans that were left after much of the story choices and execution drove fans away after season 2 through season 5 IMO deserved a more satisfying ending. Why do I want to relive those amazing moments of Sarah’s growth if she remembers very little of it? I watched this show for Sarah Walker’s journey and the incomplete picture we got of where she ended up will haunt me when ever I think about that amazing character. I really wish it had ended before she got on the Bullet train. Having Fedak tell me they are together and planning a future doesn’t cut it.

      Hey I’m thrilled they got the Netflix deal but I’m not going to apologize for not being excited about a Hallmark Hall of Fame movie. Citing Cuba Gooding Jr. who has one good film to his career isn’t helping that argument. With everything else being discussed about Zach’s possible future, this gig if true isn’t something that going to raise his profile much at least in my eyes. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad he’s working but I’m not too excited about it.

      • uplink2,

        Fedak and Schwartz were surprised that Chuck and Sarah went well together? They must have been the only ones who were, because their chemistry was pretty obvious from the very beginning. Didn’t Yvonne have to screen test with Zach before she was cast? I thought her immediate chemistry with Zach was part of the reason why Yvonne was cast.

        I can understand why the series finale would make it difficult for people to rewatch the series, especially for Sarah fans. I actually had the opposite reaction and started rewatching the series right away. However, this time, I’ve skipped season 3.0 and I’m stopping with Chuck vs the Baby. It makes the show much more enjoyable for me.

      • atcDave says:

        I agree completely about the 3.13 to 5.13 comparison. 3.13 would have been a horrible series finale for exactly the reasons you mention. But purely for its own reasons I think the amnesia arc does actually play better than the misery arc. There are a lot of parallels in how the two end, and I think there is plenty of internal evidence it was a happy ending. But I will always consider it a huge disappointment that it ended too soon, with no proper epilogue (like say, Honeymooners II!)

        But I suspect Jeff is correct about the value of the product. At least at this point, the state of the fanbase has likely not entered into anyone’s thinking. And I believe the nature of the ending might even work to our advantage for getting a reunion project at some point (Zach and Yvonne both know what their fans would like to see happen).

        I do think the Hallmark movie is likely a very good thing for Zach, and I’m excited about it, at least in part because my wife and I usually watch those. They are often cheap and fast in the normal television sense of the word (they are done on more of a television schedule than a cinematic one); but some pretty big names have done them. James Garner, Glenn Close, John Laroquette all come to mind. There have been some excellent movies, and some turkeys. But it’s particularly good because it will keep Zach on prime time, broadcast television (as Jeff mentioned, the Hall of Fame movies usually run on ABC first) and it won’t take much out of his schedule. Hopefully, he’ll line up another TV show or movie quickly.

      • atcDave says:

        Jenny I think there’s a common wisdom (or common foolishness I would call it) about the hazards of putting a lead couple together. Some in the business are convinced it can only be for the end of the show. Even fairly recently Fedak has said if they had known they were getting five seasons they would have put it off a while longer. I’m just glad they didn’t know! I would like to think Chuck showed the business that it can be done. Although our lousy ratings by the end don’t make the point very well.

      • joe says:

        Wow! Lots of interesting discussion this morning. Please let me put in my $0.02 on a couple of things that seem “disjointed”.

        First of all, I’m kind of fearing the drop-off we’re going to see one we start re-watching S3. There’s no way to persuade anyone to like it at this point, if they haven’t up to now (and I wouldn’t try). But please keep in mind that it’s not all of S3, or even all of S3.0 (the first 13) that cause that reaction. All you have to do is think of Armand Assante’s roll as Premier Allejandro Goya to realize that there’s plenty to enjoy, even if there’s a lot that’ll cause disgruntlement. Personally, there are two things I want to see again, both of which happen to occur at the darkest moments – Carina and Chuck with murder in his eyes (Tic Tack).

        The number of episodes that I have a hard time making myself re-watch doesn’t come up to a handful. It’s certainly not 12 or 13. Each time I work through them, the pay-off (especially at Am. Hero and Honeymooners) becomes a bit larger too, mostly because I understand better.

        I found that applies to the finale also. The pain of Sarah not remembering the last five years was almost blinding the first time around. It obscured much of what let up to it. Re-watching let me understand a bit better where the story was going, mostly because I could see again where it had been. Life’s like that sometimes.

        And on the Netflix deal, I’m sure it’s a good omen for the future. We may still not get a movie, but the exposure won’t hurt. And besides, we’ve been saying all along that the finale left a fantastic opening for a movie-sequel. If it’s made, tell me you could stay away!

      • uplink2 says:

        Jenny, it was a comment about what they saw when shooting Honeymooners and it is one of the most clueless comments I’ve ever heard a showrunner make. Right up there with saying they liked what they saw from Routh, Season 5 was a “love letter” to the fans and the most egregious, you don’t put down a book after the seventh chapter.

        And Dave, we can agree to disagree about the Hallmark movie. I’m fine with that. We agree to disagree about Dexter and we were cool with that as well. I guess it’s just that with Yvonne’s rapidly rising career and the great response she is getting from the critics and the fans, I was just hoping for something more high profile from Zach. I’ve watched many of those movies as well and you are correct they are very uneven. Some very good and some pure fluffy dreck. I just hope for his sake its the former.

      • Mel says:

        You’re being unnecessarily harsh towards both Hallmark movies and Zac’s career. Yvonne just did a forgettable 3 minute role in Guilt Trip and currently has no known future projects other than possible return for Dexter. Both careers have plenty of potential, but it remains to be seen what comes out of it.

      • Mel,

        Yvonne filmed her role in The Guilt Trip during the hiatus between seasons 4 of 5 of Chuck, so that role doesn’t count as part of her post-Chuck career. In a recent interview, she said that she might have a new role in a movie, but she wasn’t allowed to give details. But in only one year she has done a leading movie role (co-starring with Aaron Ekhart and Bill Nighy), had a recurring role on one of the most respected TV shows in the industry, and had the second biggest role in a critically acclaimed Broadway play.

        Golden Boy and Dexter are going to lead to bigger and better things for Yvonne. Dexter is one of the most respected shows in the industry and many very influential people watch that show. Golden Boy could have an even bigger impact on her career, because she has received rave reviews for this play. Consider this tweet from Howard Sherman on twitter today:

        “Howard Sherman ‏@HESherman
        As you likely know, I don’t share my opinions of shows. I will break my practice in order to say the following: @Y_Strahovski. Yes.”

        Sherman is a very influential member of the theatre community, so to receive praise like this is truly remarkable. There were dozens of other TV and movie actors who did Broadway this year and very few, if any of them have received the kind of praise she has.

        Yvonne has established herself in the industry now and she is done taking bit parts like Guilt Trip.

      • Robert says:

        Well, you just said it, Uplink; you liked 3.13 because we got 3.14 after that. And I’m pretty sure that you would’ve loved 5.13 if we got a 5.14 “Honeymooner-ish” episode. Or that you would’ve had the same reaction than with 5.13, had 3.13 been the last episode of the series.

        What I especially meant is that 3.13 and 5.13 are very similar structurally speaking, not in every single detail that happened in both episodes, of course! But you got to admit that both ended almost the same way, and the message was clearly the same: Chuck and Sarah are together, sailing together towards the next stage of their lives together.

        You can dislike the way it was portrayed, but the conclusion is the same for both episodes, whether you like it or not. I’m not disputing the fact that you dislike the Finale, hey, you are totally entitled to your opinion, but just because you do mustn’t you make overlook the fact (FACT) that they are both very similar, structurally (and written by the same guy, well, well…), and aimed at the same thing; showing us that Chuck and Sarah are ok, and made it through the last (latest) obstacle.

        Also, it’s starting to be really tiresome to read a lot of people on this forum complaining AGAIN AND AGAIN about how they disliked the Finale, especially when the topic is completely about something else (whether another episode, or another thing, heck, we were talking about Chuck being on Netflix!), and it has nothing, NOTHING, to do with the Finale! So please, people (with all due respect to your opinion about the Finale), instead of playing party-poopers every single time, can’t you just restrain yourself from doing that, until we get to the Finale’s discussion? It’s getting very tiresome! Thank you.

      • atcDave says:

        Robert, even apart from the fact 3.13 got an epilogue and 5.13 did not, there is at least one other significant difference between them. A significant number of viewers were not satisfied that all was well after 5.13, while nearly every viewer saw 3.13 as having ended well. For myself I was very unhappy for about 30 minutes until I started seeing how it really was a positive outcome, and that everything would be fine. But that initial negative reaction will always hang over it. And we’ve heard from many, many viewers who never got past that first reaction.
        So while it might be fair to observe the numerous parallels between the end of 3.13 and 5.13, their impact was very different.

      • uplink2 says:

        Robert, one final thing and then I’m done discussing this for a bit out of respect to those that find it tiresome. First this discussion started because someone asked a question about with the Netflix deal finally being done, why there has been no syndication deal yet. I voiced my opinion and even prefaced it by saying I knew I would take some flac for it. But my opinion still stands and none of us know the true and accurate reason. We may all be right or none of us may be right. We simply will never know. I have my thoughts and you have yours and that is one of the reasons we come here. There are many things I disagree with some of the commenters here on but I also have learned some things by looking at their POV through their eyes. I still may disagree but I think I’m better for having opened myself up to differing opinions.

        As far as your point about the structure of 3.13 vs 5.13 I see your POV to a degree but to me structure means nothing as it is the emotion and how this show makes me ‘feel’ that is the reason I became so much more dedicated to this fandom than I ever have in my life or likely ever will again. I watch Chuck because of how it makes me feel when I watch and think about it. Not the nuances of similar final scene structure.

        You are correct if 3.13 had been the final episode of the series I would have been very disappointed in what we went though for what we got. Thankfully it was followed by my favorite episode of the entire series. That’s why I feel it is a very very flawed story choice to end with a cliched memory loss story line. It’s a story you start a final season with not end it. As a great fan of this show told me recently, why was 42 minutes of Morgan being a 50 year old Bo Derek’s boy toy more important than the salvation of the most important character on the show for me?

        My disappointment with the finale has never been about the performances, it was about the story choice and the fact that I found it very incomplete. Start the season with that story and allow us to watch them fight once again to get to the destination they deserve. That would have been a season and a finale I would have enjoyed. TBH and I mean this with great respect to him, I didn’t want to watch and experience the show like Ernie does, analyzing if from a writers intent POV. I “felt” Chuck and responded to it on a very emotional level and the final emotion I walked away from the series with was melancholy. Not because of the fact that it was over like I expected but because I never got to say goodbye and be excited to take that journey again and again.

      • Robert says:

        Uplink, I get what you mean, and I totally respect your opinion. But it is nevertheless an “emotional” response to the finale. And that’s what you admit yourself.

        Quite frankly, I’m not entirely satisfied with the Finale, as I would’ve loved to see them in their house with the picket fences and all (although for me, what we got was clear enough, considering the clues and the show’s history, to understand Chuck and Sarah were back together and ok, etc), but I can also see (and mostly agree with what) Ernie is saying; my point is that perhaps, to really enjoy the Finale, we have to balance both the emotional and rational reactions we have.

        Because the emotional response is “How could they end the show that way, I wanted to see them in their house, in love, with the kids, the dog and the (extended) family…” and focus on what we expected (and didn’t have), and the rational response is seeing all the clues and tells that Chuck and Sarah are ok and together again.

        That’s what I did personally (and what Dave, Ernie, Thinkling and Faith made me understand), but I can see that for some, it can be more difficult to fathom.

        And once again, I’m done talking about “The Finale” 😉

      • atcDave says:

        Robert that was very well put for closing comments.

      • jam says:

        F that.

        Watching a show like Chuck is all about emotion. If you have to start rationalizing the finale in order to find positive things about it, it has failed miserably.

      • Wilf says:

        Jam, I’m with you on this. Whilst I’m in a pretty good place now vis a vis the finale, nevertheless I just should not have required the level of explanation that I turned out to need to get to that position (and I don’t think I’m especially thick!).

      • Robert says:

        Jam, the only think I meant is that we must not let our own emotional response blind us to the good things and the obvious clues/hints/tells, that Chuck and Sarah are in a good place in the end, that’s all; not that having an emotional response is bad!

        And you have the right to disagree with me, as I disagree with you.

        “F that”; was that really necessary?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I hesitate to join in a bru-ha that seems to have largely died down, but I will anyway.

        Chuck is a show that thrives on the emotional connection and response, but it is also a show that asks us to let go of our preconceptions and expectations. It is a farce that does drama really well, a serialized love story that isn’t soapy or sappy, and it is a spy-action thriller with some of the silliest plot devices you’ve ever seen. It is also one of the most creative and fun shows ever produced. I’ve always found it best to just enjoy the ride and make sense of it later. Trying to force the show or the story into a certain category or genre just makes things worse. We’ve seen it here constantly with some posters. The show had to be what they wanted or it was an objective failure. They insisted, for instance, that Chuck was a comedy and that any drama, violence, or action especially regarding the character Sarah was not just misplaced, but objectively insulting to fans. That’s just one example that comes to mind, there are more, but I prefer not to dwell. There are just too many fan imposed rules.

        We’ve written too many rules for this show, rules TPTB never signed on to, and yet we jump at every chance to demonize or criticize them for breaking our rules with their show. And yes, a lot of those rules seem somewhat reasonable, or a part of the show we want or wish we were watching, that’s part of the emotional response. But each of those rules takes something away from TPTB’s toolbox. Each eliminates a potential source of drama, or comedy, or a plot twist, and each one of which is potentially emotionally wrenching or satisfying, or a plot device that sets up something else that can generate something that strikes us as immensely satisfying or just downright magical. Like the finale was for me. Emotional responses can be good or bad. A three year old throwing a tantrum is having an emotional response, but I’d hesitate to call that a healthy response or a good thing. And I’m not calling anyone a three year-old throwing a tantrum, it is simply giving an extreme example to make a point. When you can appreciate how a show makes you feel, both the sweet and the bittersweet, both the laughter and the tears, without losing sight of the fact that it is a story told for that very reason, to make you feel something and to connect you to the human experience and all that is tragic and triumphant about it, then you can have what I’d call a rational emotional response. I’d call that art. It feeds the human soul. If you close yourself off, or set boundaries you are actively limiting the potential of a story and your enjoyment of it. And that is partially your responsibility.

        Is that always a bad thing? No, not necessarily. Some people have limits of what they can enjoy or understand, or appreciate. If a show or story isn’t giving you what you want or need, consider moving on. It’s a weekly contract. But if you are invested beyond the point of moving on, appreciate that investment for what it is and try not to twist it into something it isn’t. You can be invested without being entitled, and feeling entitled to your story means you aren’t willing to invest anything into the story anymore if you ask me. You’re looking for simple gratification, not a return for your time and appreciation. I understand that some people feel they had the rug pulled out from under them with season 3 or the finale, that TPTB treated their investment cheaply and that there was too little return, or the wrong kind of payoff, but it has a lot to do with their own limits and expectations that they, not TPTB or other fans put on the show. Try to keep it in perspective, and don’t personalize it like too many here have done.

        Your appreciation or dislike are all equally valid, you don’t need an objective case to justify or legitimize them. And we certainly don’t need to equate our own emotional reactions to something objective or universal. Even on this site a poll among our readers shows that the finale was considered one of the best episodes of season 5 by a majority of those responding. Keep in mind that while a certain viewpoint seems dominant, and can seem like it is a universal fan response, our best information suggests it doesn’t even represent the majority of our readers, as opposed to posters, here. And perhaps a bit of consideration for their tastes might be in order rather than using every topic to once again re-visit the failures of season 3 or the finale.

      • uplink2 says:

        Ernie, I said I was going to stop talking about this for a bit out of respect to those that find it tiresome and I am going to respect that and not go into any point by point discussion but there are some things in that posting I’d like to address.

        First I have said many times before I appreciate your insight, POV and ability to express your opinion and I have learned a great deal about the show and how others see it by your intelligent postings. What I don’t appreciate is when I feel like I’m being lectured to on how I should or should not watch or appreciate a show. You have your way, I have mine. Neither is more valid than the other.

        I would contend that I will give TPTB every weapon in their playbook to tell their story, but I reserve the right to decide if it works for me or not. I also reserve the right to criticize and express my opinion as to what I see is their intent and the logic behind it. You said that some fans have tried to limit TPTB tool set to tell their story and that they never signed up for that, then why are you trying to limit my emotional response to what they did to “rational” emotions? What’s wrong with an irrational emotional response? Many times those are the most honest.

        Based on how I perceive your POV, I should love a show like Boardwalk Empire. Great actors, strong writing, lots of drama, great critical response, my wife loves it, all things that would make a ‘rational’ response be that I should love it too. I watched the first 5 episodes of it and haven’t watched a single one since. I never connected on an irrational ’emotional’ level and simply moved on. In respect to Chuck, I thought my ’emotional response’ to an episode like Fake Name was completely rational and I hated it. In what I perceive is your philosophy of viewing that rational emotional response should have led me to be able to appreciate it for what Fedak and Adler intended. The truth is I did and still hate it with a passion. That hatred is both rational and irrational. I guess my point is if you believe I shouldn’t limit TPTB to tell their story, don’t limit me to how I react to it.

        Finally, I also object to the idea that every topic and every posting comes back to season 3 and finale bashing. There has been virtually none of that for over a month on this site. It isn’t always the case and I believe many of us have made a concerted effort to wait till the appropriate time to discuss this. But if you notice, those threads over the last few weeks have been very small compared to ones that include some reference to the topics that shouldn’t be spoken of. If we limit the discussion and shy away from controversial topics, this site will die rather quickly. A site like this needs passion to survive especially since the show is over for almost a year now. Without it you might as well close up shop.

        Again, please know that I absolutely appreciate your POV and insight, I’ve learned a lot. I’d just rather not be lectured on how I should or should not watch a show that I may or may not be passionate about.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Uplink, I hope you don’t feel singled out, and I certainly didn’t intend to lecture anyone on how they “should” enjoy the show or feel about something. My point is that a lot of people do limit what the show can be or what they’ll accept or where it can go, which is fine, but recognize that it is you limiting the show and it falling outside your tastes rather than TPTB breaking some sort of rule. I find it especially depressing to continually read disparaging highly personal attacks on the writers and producers of Chuck based simply on them making creative choices the person on the attack didn’t like. You (in the plural sense, not directed at anyone in particular) certainly don’t have to like it or agree with it, or accept it, but you options are limited to like, don’t like and watch or don’t. It is you who feels the emotion or reacts and while certainly some manipulation on the part of TPTB is intentional and is intended to make you feel something they can’t either know or predict everyone’s reaction, so they can’t be held fully responsible, which is where the fan’s responsibility comes in. Maintain some perspective. Certainly venting with some like-minded fans can be therapeutic, but you also need to recognize it can become an echo chamber where each complaint or attack leads to the next, all drowning out everything else out as their volume just increases each time around. For the most part the really bad attacks or reactions have stopped, so this isn’t as big an issue, but when discussion of syndication turns into another round of “why the finale sucked and ruined the show” it just gets a little frustrating. So I apologize if you felt lectured. I was just venting with some like-minded fans too, and I probably should have just let it go since it had pretty much died down.

  7. uplink2 says:

    Joe, I don’t think we are going to be seeing a drop off in the discussion here when we get there. We will probably see a drop in folks actually re-watching but I expect an uptick in commentary. I will agree there were a lot of very good moments in 3.0 but as I’ve stated before I can’t separate them in my head to be able to enjoy the good without the stench of the bad overwhelming the good. Part of that is the problems start right at the beginning. Pink Slip sent us on a forced and contrived journey I didn’t want to take. That journey demanded some really big OOC moments to set up and I knew I was going to hate what the characters would become to take that journey. Though I think Tic Tac is a good episode, mainly because of no Shaw, I can’t separate the last scene from the rest of the episode and enjoy it for what it was. So I choose to simply not watch that season at all. But that doesn’t mean I won’t make my voice heard here lol.

    • atcDave says:

      I don’t expect to spend much time on the re-watch threads. But I will be posting some S3 alternate/fan fiction topics. Hopefully, that will give those of us who are unhappy with the season a place to discuss without annoying those who actually liked it.

  8. actDave,

    I understand that some shows don’t like putting the lead characters together, but dragging out the “will they or won’t they” is far worse for a series (IMO). Season 3.0 almost felt like a rehash of Ross and Rachel on Friends, but at least they got a happy definitive happy ending. Sigh….

    Totally agree with you about the Hallmark movie. The first few roles Zach takes after Chuck is likely going to establish how his career will go. I’m not sure what his career goals are, but if he wants to be known as a serious actor, he should turn down roles like this right now. After 3rd Rock from the Sun, Joseph Gordon-Levitt took several roles in independent films to establish himself as a serious actor and it’s paying dividends for him right now.

    • atcDave says:

      Jenny I agree entirely about Wt/WT, I think the formula in use is maddening to many viewers. I want to SEE them together, not just know that they are fine. Now that is something Chuck did very well with only a couple exceptions. Obviously I think it was drawn out 12 episode too long in the first place, and I wanted a more substantial epilogue in the end.
      But all things considered they did quite well; we got a couple dynamite seasons of television (from 1.01 – 2.22 and from 3.14 – 5.11).

      And Jenny I do disagree about a Hallmark movie being any kind of mistake. They have a great track record for bringing in Emmys and Golden Globes. Its actually a good way for Zach to get noticed by a different audience than knows him now. No doubt, he’s heading in a very different sort of direction than Yvonne, but I can actually get behind his work. And I look forward to seeing more of him. And the really good news is it will likely take far less time than shooting a season of Dexter.

      • Hemmo says:

        I don’t get this idea that accepting a role in Dexter somehow defines the direction of Yvonne’s career. It was just a job and the next one can be something completely different. And it’s not like she picked Dexter out of a dozen high profile gigs, for what we know it was the only (proper) job offer for those couple of months. So the options were either to work or not.

        Writing off her future projects based on one gig is just irrational.

      • atcDave says:

        I have never written off anyone’s career. I have only observed based on her comments and choices that apart from Chuck, her taste is very different from mine.
        I do still hope she makes some choices I can be excited about.

      • joe says:

        Well, yes, Hemmo. That would be wrong.
        But I don’t think anyone is actually writing off Yvonne’s future projects based on Hannah in Dexter (if that’s what you meant). And really, I don’t believe that she’s just taking any ol’ job that comes along because it’s been a couple of months. I’m having a hard time remembering if she ever didn’t perform in something during breaks from Chuck, including ME3 – that is, Yvonne seems to get parts regularly, and chooses things she finds new and interesting to her. That’s a good thing.

        But you see, that means I think you’re right. She’s quite liable to pick something next time that is enjoyed by a completely different audience. Maybe she’ll even convince some of her current fans to give something new a try.

        I fear Adam Baldwin is much more stereotyped as a military-type. I hope Zac isn’t always a nerdy half-boy, but I fear that’s where he’ll be typecast.

      • Mel says:

        It’s not the first time some of Yvonne’s fans get overly excited, Hemmo.

        Don’t get me wrong, I love Yvonne/Sarah, but I am certain Dexter will in no way define her future career. Thankfully!

      • Hemmo,

        Yvonne’s roles in Dexter and Golden Boy are career changing roles because she has established herself as a serious actress. Even though Chuck fans knew how talented Yvonne is, she wasn’t taken that seriously as an actress for her role on the show (the PTB didn’t help matters by having Yvonne scantily clad in 5 inch high high heals in almost every episode of the show!)

        Dexter and Golden Boy may not define her entire career, but these roles are both important stepping stones for her.

      • Yvonne fans have good reason to be excited right now, especially for Golden Boy. Having seen the show, I can honestly say that she was so brilliant in this play that it blew her Phase Three performance out of the water. The rave reviews she received were well deserved. And Dexter is so well respected in the industry (much more than Chuck ever was) so these two roles have been great exposure for he

        In Hollywood, every single career choice has a huge impact on an actor’s career. What if, instead of doing Dexter and Golden Boy, Yvonne had done a recurring role on “Don’t Trust the B in Apartment 23” and done a lame eye candy movie role (example: Cashmere in The Hunger Games sequel). Her career would be on a completely different track.

      • Hemmo says:

        I wasn’t talking about how career changing her roles are. My point was that some commenters are doing irrational extrapolations like “she took a role in Dexter” so “now she is going all dark and grimm and in her future roles”. She didn’t choose Dexter, Dexter chose her. And accepting the role was more likely because it was a high profile gig that would keep her on the road to even bigger gigs and not because it’s a dark and grimm show.

        I’m getting the idea that for some people doing nothing would have been better than doing Dexter. (pun not intended)

        Yvonne and Zac are both middle tier (not on skill but pecking order) actors who can’t afford to be TOO picky. They both need that one role in a movie that at first glance doesn’t look so impressive but what will become a surprise hit (financial or critical) that turns them into household names.

      • atcDave says:

        Hemmo you are drawing extreme conclusions from a few statements. First of all, of course Yvonne chose the role(s) she’s taken. She isn’t a slave, and nobody HAS TO take every job that comes their way (and I don’t believe for a second she would have stayed unemployed long if she’d said no to Dexter). But that’s really beside the point. I think I’ve been the most extreme of anyone on this point, and even so, its just an observation that based on her last three choices (I, Frankenstein; Dexter; Golden Boy) AND interviews she’s made that her taste and mine are very dissimilar (she has specifically said that she likes romantic tragedy). I fail to see how you make such a big deal of this. I myself, for my own selfish reasons, wish she would make choices more like Zach seems to be making (Disney, Marvel and Hallmark). I would surely see more of her future work if she did so. I’m not writing anyone off in any sense of the term. I will probably look twice at any project associated with her (or anyone else from the Chuck cast) even if it isn’t to my liking. And I really hope she ends up involved in a project again that I really can get excited about. But until then, the observation remains, her taste seems very different from mine.

      • Yvonne gave an interview during Killer Elite, where she said she will pick her roles if the character interests her. She definitely is more drawn to tragic/flawed type of characters (can’t get much more tragic than Lorna Moon), but I think if the right comedy or action role came long, she’d take it in a heartbeat.

  9. Dexter producer Scott Reynolds confirmed that Dexter will be doing the usual 12 episodes for their 8th and likely final season (there was a rumor of doing 16). The producers of Dexter will be attending the TCA Winter Press Tour tomorrow, so they could possibly announce if Yvonne is returning to the show. Hopefully they’ll also confirm the rumor of the February start date.

    • Mel says:

      They didn’t comment on Yvonne coming back. That gives me hope she has decided to move on to more interesting (from my POV) projects .

      The synopsis for Zac’s new movie Remember Sunday goes:
      ” Man has lost his short-term memory after an aneurysm three years ago, and can barely keep his life on track with a series of post-it notes and electronic reminders. Formerly a cutting-edge astro-physicist, He now deals with his new life.”

      There are already pics out there of him and Alexis Bledel filming in New Orleans, so I guess this rumor turned out to be true.

      Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zac soon gets linked to the Y the Last Man movie, since it has finally gotten a director, and he has talked about how he’d love to play Yorick.

      • atcDave says:

        Really awesome to have Zach actually starring in something new. The synopsis is amusing in light of all things Chuck, but I do look forward to it.

        I wouldn’t conclude anything either way from silence about Yvonne’s Dexter work. Remember how the return of Shaw in S5 was kept pretty quiet, just a few vague rumors, until the week before the episode ran. So especially if Hannah returns for just an episode or two, it might be kept quiet.

      • I saw this message posted on twitter yesterday:

        “Lesley Goldberg ‏@Snoodit
        Showtime’s David Nevins mum on whether Yvonne Strahovski will return to #Dexter. (I think she will.) #TCA13 #DelayedTweet”

        Execs also wouldn’t confirm that Damien Lewis is coming back to Homeland (it’s almost a guarantee that he is. He’s way too important to the show). I think if Yvonne wasn’t coming back, they’d say she’s not coming back (they did that when Julia Stiles left the show after season 5). Plus, showrunner Scott Buck said they were negotiating with her to come back.

        We will probably hear one way or another in the next couple of weeks.

      • Zac’s movie sounds a lot like 50 First Dates, which is actually a pretty cute movie.

      • jam says:

        “Y the Last Man” is one of my favorite comics, but it really should be a (TV-MA rated) tv show instead of a movie. I can’t see how a single movie (or two or three if they decide to make more than one) could do justice to the story.

      • uplink2 says:

        It was announced tonight during the Shameless premier that Dexter is returning early, June 30th. That explains the earlier shooting schedule than normal. Personally I think she’s coming back, I also hope she is as I loved the role. I just can’t see how a top flight production like Dexter wouldn’t have signed her to an option when they cast her. There were rumors it was a multi-season role. So if they knew she might be returning, and they certainly set it up in the finale that it is likely she is with the black rose and her biting his lip I just don’t see them doing it without at least some assurance she would be back to do whatever they wanted. Plus it could be limited with only a few episodes and a few scenes as they certainly will be concentrating on the finale blowup and the ultimate demise of Dexter and probably Deb.

  10. Getting this back on topic… I really think Chuck is going to build up quite a cult following in the coming years and having the show on Netflix is really going to help. Geek Furious recently had a podcast where they discussed the “Strahovski effect” and I think it’s very real. I’ve seen several Dexter fans and even one Golden Boy attendee say they started watching Chuck because they like her so much. If Yvonne ever does one franchise movie role (I’m hoping for the new Star Wars trilogy), I think Chuck is going to gain a legion of new fans.

    • Robert says:

      That effect is certainly real; I remember reading that a Dexter fan bought the 5 seasons of Chuck after seeing her in Dexter, and said “Chuck” was great! For my part, knowing she was in a certain project certainly raised my interest of the said project (e.g Mass Effect 2).

      I really wish I could’ve seen her in Golden Boy, and I’m glad to see her acclaimed performances are raising awareness of Chuck!

      Ms. Strahovski in the new Star Wars movies? THAT would be great!!! But would she be interested? From what I’ve noticed since the end of Chuck, she’s really trying to diversify her choices of roles, so would she like to play a jedi, or a mercenary, etc. ? That would awesome, though.

      I’d also love to play Miranda Lawson in a Mass Effect movie, that would be nice.

  11. I’m confused, now it’s been a while since I saw the series finale, but didn’t Morgan say “just kiss her”? Would/Could Chuck faithful believe a simple kiss could bring everything back????

  12. Colemanpack says:

    I was actually waiting for Chuck to bring out the drawn picture of their house and picket fence that he had on the train to bring back her memory. I thought he would give her the picture and, after seeing it, kiss Chuck with recognition and tears. Now, I just believe that happens after they kiss on the beach. 🙂

  13. Josh says:

    Wow! I’ve read many sinister comments about both Chuck’s cast acting choices the creators and writers and the show in general that I find highly disrespectful and feel the need to speak about!

    I’ll start with Chucks plot direction during season 3, which ironically enough I finished watching for the 6th time yesterday! Chuck ultimately made a conscious decision (as evidenced by the scene flashes beforehand) to upload Intersect 2.0, If u recall for almost the entire latter half of S2 he had gotten to the point where he wanted his life to have a purpose, I feel most of u forgot that even FULCRUM was quite impressed with his ability as a spy! My point is that if the “bad guys” are impressed/ somewhat threatened by him, it’s proves that despite not asking for it in the first place Chuck was/is supposed to be a spy! I personally LOVED S3 – Brandon Routh’s non-ability to show expression thru his face! But despite this I thought the character was great, before his inevitable change in affiliation, he pushed and believed in Chuck to become his own person separate from Sarah and even Casey! I’m one fan and I hope part of a larger group that watches Chuck for more than just Chuck and Sarah’s relationship! Life isn’t a sappy fairy tale, the better show creators (Mark Schwahn- One Tree Hill, Al Gough & Miles Millar- Smallville) try to make their characters as real as possible! That’s why I’ve always had tremendous respect for those kinds of people! They create shows viewers never forget because the situations both good and bad 100% based on real life imperfect relationships!! I don’t really get how any real Chuck fan could’ve had an issue with season 3 considering that WiTHOUT that friction we probably wouldn’t have gotten some of the best moments in Chuck+Sarah history and the best season finale! A last note about S3, somebody mentioned they hated Chuck versus the fake name, personally I loved that episode too it’s incredibly difficult to play a personality different from the one that’s been established by a character on any show! The main trio (Zach, Yvonne and Adam) proved that they can do it extremely on several occasions throughout the series which will help their careers in the future!

    Now as for season 5 first off I say I loved that Season too! Why? It’s quite simple really, the 4 season prior it was never really explored if Chuck could be a spy without intersect 2.0 and we got the answer to that question with S5! He can be a spy regardless of if the 2.0 or rather 3.0 is in his head which I found highly enjoyable! He can be a leader a fighter and has the added bonus of raw intellect! As far as having Morgan upload the intersect this was perfectly believable to me that he could handle the program (Trojan aside) if he’d ever uploaded the clean program it would’ve been believable to me because despite his wacky and somewhat immature nature, he’s got the most balanced emotional level of the entire team, thanks to his interactions with Casey which made him strong willed and quite more mature! I found Sarah’s plot including the final 3 episodes quite refreshing! A deep look at why she began to grow tired of being a spy and the reasons she was closed off before Chuck or as Casey put it in Chuck versus phase three ” Langston Grahm’s wildcard enforcer”.
    As for the finale itself the fact is the end plot (last three episodes) were brilliantly thought out by Josh, Chris and the writing staff! Some people may say “are you crazy” but it takes a truly gifted writer(staff) to make a shows end mean something I can prove this because a lazy predictable ending (especially for a show like Chuck) proves that the staff/wants to completely leave behind that portion of their career! This theory is 1 reason that a Friends reunion will likely never happen!
    Also let’s remember that NBC NEVER had faith in Chuck from its start placing it in the harshest night/time slot for the bulk of its run! I think Josh and Chris sat back and said, everyone let’s prove Nbc wrong and keep the show relevant and have a reason to keep it alive for its audience! Maybe in this regard the final plot (and S3) did exactly what they intended keep fans passionate and vocal about the show long after it’s over, plus that last scene in 5-13 was a fantastic parallel to the pilot, Chuck was a nobody with an average life whose parents had disappeared, when out of the blue he’s thrust into a world that at the time he wasn’t ready for and was genuinely scared of, the only person who knows that world and can help him navigate it safely has tracked him down when he’s by himself trying to make sense of what his life has become and no clue why he was chosen!
    He explains how he feels and Sarah asks Chuck to trust her to help him make sense of it all! So he does.
    Like Chuck told Morgan in the penultimate scene, she could’ve gone anywhere but instinct or led her back to that beach! Her life was taken away from her what she remembers is only how to be a spy, keep her guard up, she’s clearly still rattled and unsure of herself chuck shows up and tells her and like Sarah did with him in the pilot, tries without forcing to get her to realize that regardless of her views or choices he’d be there for her, not because he’s trying to get back what he lost but because he understands what she’s going thru, she knows nothing about her non-spy life except what Chuck tells her, he asks her simply to trust him and she asks to hear their story! She asks him to kiss her and he does! It proves she’s wiling to open her heart again and start over hoping to experience the same feelings she knows she once had (because of watching her mission log) so regardless of how we felt about the ‘limbo” ending,which made me immediately want to watch it all again and I’ve watched it 5 or 6 times ending we are still passionately talking about Chuck which is a great, great thing because that will help spark more and more interest and revival or movie!

    This post may be somewhat jumbled due to length and I apologize for that:) I hope I raised some interesting points and arguments for people! I took extra care to make a point without too much criticism of other comments and hope I succeeded:)

    • joe says:

      Awww – Josh, please don’t be too hard on us. I know what you mean about the comments seeming disrespectful sometimes (sometimes they seem that way to me too). But ultimately, the yardstick people are using is one that measures each episode and each scene and each *concept* against the highest standards conceivable! This is the favorite show of all time for most of the people here, and that’s a high level to maintain.

      And besides. We’re here to discuss things openly. For me that means sometimes comparing Brandon Routh’s wooden “Shaw” with the Tim Dalton’s scenery-chewing Volkoff. I can understand why an accomplished and professional actor like Routh might come in second in that comparison, but I also see that he shouldn’t be considered a professional failure for that. And we’re pretty much in that camp here, even if it isn’t spelled out exactly like that everyday.

      I’m very much in agreement with you about Season 3 and Season 5 too. My pulse races every time we get to the end of S2, though! 😉

    • atcDave says:

      Everyone here is here because they love the show. That never means we have no complaints or see no flaws. We will discuss both. If you think this site is disrespectful you haven’t spent much time on line.

    • revdr says:

      Josh; while I may not be as happy with season 3 or season 5 as you are, I still found that there were some good things about them both. I didn’t like the finale, but that’s just me…no one has to agree with me. But, you will find, as I have, that here the discussion is the thing. That we are all here, after 2 years, still talking about Chuck means that we love the show, quite a lot, and we love talking about it all. So, at times, we agree to disagree, sometimes vigorously, but we do it respectfully, and I, at least, enjoy the back and fourth. I will disagree with you about OTH and Smallville though, because both shows were laden with relationship issues (don’t get me started on Lucas/Peyton, or Lucas/Brooke or Clark/Lana, or even Clark/Lois). The thing is, in both of those shows, like Chuck, the big story was about the journey, and the relationships played a big part in that. But fear not, Joe, Dave and all of the others the make up this site, are always insightful, kind, and most of all, always respectful.

  14. Christopher says:

    Very passionate post, and its that kind of passion that makes sites like this so compelling. the other thing is we all have opinions about the show that are different from others. For example, I also Ike Fake Name its one of my favorite episodes, and I love Shaw. I always have been saying that Shaw was the one that took Chuck out of the “van” sort to speak. Sarah and Casey coddled Chuck for the most part. However, I disagree with you about the relationship. Chuck and Sarah’s growth was the best part about the show. It was the kind of story that made you feel good at the end of the day and the relationship was not sappy in any way. if anything there was more upsetting moments than great ones. There was more misunderstandings until season 5 when they were married.

    in season 5, I like most of the episodes and can handle goodbye with the exception of the final scene. the one episode I don’t like and refuse to watch is Chuck vs Sarah just because it hurts too much for me to watch such an episode.

    Regarding Morgan and Sarah getting the intersect. I am not a fan of simply because it was understood that the only person that could get the intersect was someone that had a special brain thus the importance of Chuck only having the Intersect. If I am forced to accept another person getting intersect it would be Sarah because her situation was more dire than Morgans’

    I also don’t understand and don’t like how Quin was able to erase Sarah’s memories up until before she met Chuck. How is it possible for quin to know when to stop erasing her memory with the flash card. and what he was erasing.

    • Josh says:


      I completely get why you can’t watch Chuck versus Sarah..that episode was like a knife in the heart of every fan of the show:( Also after all the escapes from capture I found it harshly ironic that of all the things to lead to Sarah’s eventual capture and brain washing what did her in was a Tranquilizer dart:( Nobody expected that, as far as Morgan getting the intersect..I suppose all shows have continuity issues.

      I can however give an explanation for Sarah’s memories of Chuck getting severely suppressed ( I say suppressed because it was never explained if Sarah and Morgans Memories were outright erased or just severely suppressed, there’s evidence it’s more likely the latter tho) as she was forced to flash continuously. It’s makes sense that whatever memories were at the surface of her mind (the thing she was thinking about most of all at that particular moment) in this case her memories of Chuck would be affected before say, her father or Bryce, by the end of the series Chuck was the most important thing to her and thus we can safety guess that’s who she was thinking about. Plus since Chuck’s family, Morgan and to a lesser extent Casey were all extensions of her relationship with chuck it makes since those memories would be affected too.

      I liked the ending (beach) scene because of its parallel to the pilot and how touching it was.. when the show started Chuck was questioning where his life would go and Sarah was the one who could help make sense of that, she could’ve pushed the issue by turning him right over to the government but she knew he wouldn’t cooperate if she did that so she simply asked for his trust instead. In the finale those roles are reversed, literally they both sit where the other sat in the pilot and Chuck instead of pressuring her to take him back asks for her trust like she did in the very beginning. This fact is what for me makes the ending and the series so special for me.:)

      Also I have to admit that Casey was the last person I expected to save Chuck and Sarah’s relationship ( by giving her the Mission Log DVD, I guessed Beckmen before Casey) but like he said Chuck made him soft:) I also think that he knew it’d be too cruel if Chuck lost the opportunity to win her back due to the fact that she’d been taken advantage of and supplied with completely false information about their relationship, at least this way whatever choices she makes are of her own free will. I also should point out that even though Chuck versus Sarah is very difficult to watch Yvonne did an amazing job in that episode and Chuck versus The Goodbye! She’s a multi-talented actress with a great career ahead of her:)

      As a matter of fact her next TV role is in the 12 episode mini reboot of 24 where she’s playing another CIA Agent:) I’m pretty sure it airs in May!

      • Christopher says:

        I disagree with you here Josh.

        We as fans waited three and half years for Chuck and Sarah to finally get over themselves and take that proverbial leap of faith on each other. We sat through potential love interests, exes returns, breakups. threats to leave town, to Mauser/Red Test Chuck and Sarah grew wonderfully by season 5 and when they got married we saw a whole new couple. They worked together and acted like husband and wife. Exception of course is the curse and baby, but they both told each other the other was wrong for going out on their own.

        We have both Sarah and Chuck go rampage to rescue each other from death and kidnapping, which was very well done, but to see what I saw in Chuck vs Sarah was tough for my heart because of the history prior. I know Yvonne and especially Zachery gave wonderful performance in the episode, but it still something I don’t like. IMO there is only 12 episode in season 5 for me much like I skip over Helicopter, The Broken Heart, Third Dimension and Nemesis. The reason I don’t like Nemesis is because we get this wonderful moment at the end of The Imported Hard Salami, a favorite of mine by the way

        I like Hard Salami because of how great Sarah tries to maintain professionalism but Agent Walker is losing the battle here to Sarah the real girlfriend. her expression in this episode was really well done by Yvonne, and let me tell you she blows Nicole Kidman out of the water and takes the thrown as queen of Australia

        You brought up the whole V-log so I blame you for this one

        Sarah: Day 56, Chuck and I were planning to defuse a bomb and there was a chance we both thought we were going to die, he closed his eyes and I kissed him. I kissed him

        and than we get a twist with Bryce coming back. I was like seriously why now. and I didn’t like Bryce brashness with Chuck.

  15. Josh says:

    My fault I should have clarified better, when I was talking about sappy romance I I didn’t mean chuck at all. Chuck and Sarah’s relationship was always great because it was never sappy. I meant that in an era filled with actor duos that for some reason can’t do romantic without coming across as sappy or over dramatic (twilight, vampire diaries come to mind as this) Zach and Yvonne never came across that way. Now shows/movies that do come across that way may be due to bad acting, writing, chemistry or some combination of the 3 but the point was Chuck never had that issue, the relationships always felt real which is why people are split on the finale and season 3 which I certainly understand. Chuck was only on for 5 years and the fact that TPTB choose that kind of ending shows that they care about the show and want to eventually bring the Chuck universe back into existence which we all want. Say that they had done a “fine and dandy flash-forward” ending,(that phrase just popped in my head lol) while that might leave us all satisfied it would be a letdown because TPTB wouldn’t have a reason to go back to it. I think we’re all in agreement that NBC treated this amazingly awesome show like garbage from day 1 and decided it would get axed before S5 even aired! I think we’re such a passionate fan base because they axed it when it had a ton of stories left to tell (which is why I’m ok with the limbo ending) and replaced it with terrible comedy pilots.

    I sincerely apologize if I came across like I was yelling at anybody or insulting the site in any way that was not my intention, I simply found that the insults on the shows staff were unnecessary and had read so many that my emotions may have been a little to heated in my original post:) sorry to those who felt that way:)

    • revdr says:

      Well, again, I would disagree that the open ended finale mean anything more than what it was…opened ended. All of TPTB have readily moved on to other projects, and as recent as a week or so ago JS was fairly upfront and IMO fairy smut in saying that it was deliberate not from a standpoint of wanting to continue the adventures, but to leave the outcome to the viewer. And, JS in all of his prior efforts, made a point of ending those stories. That being said, we all still hope for something to happen, a movie or mini series or anything, though some of us are skeptical of what they might do. I have the utmost respect for the creators, since they gave us this wonderful show, but it doesn’t mean that I have to like everything that they do. I like a great deal of what you said however, and I would love to continue to debate with you.

      • revdr says:


      • Josh says:


        I agree that creators can be arrogant:) I honestly think judging from his interviews that Zach Levi is one of the most down to earth people and that if some kind of continuation does happen the he’ll find a way to make it happen, the cast has said on numerous occasions they’d be wiling if circumstances made it possible and at the end of the day that’s who counts because they bring the characters to life 🙂 I think it’s awesome that Zach started and runs his own company, he made being a “nerd” cool! I have tremendous respect for celebrities like him

      • Christopher says:

        Throw in Yvonne on this one too. I mean she confirmed that she is will do Chuck again/ The only problem with this is scheduling really. as I said before You need both Zac and Yvonne and Adam on board to do a movie and or mini series

      • atcDave says:

        I think Zach’s accessibility is a huge part of fan’s continuing enthusiasm and affection for this show.
        As far as smugness of the writers goes, I think they are pleased with their product. And the backlash may have left them defensive. They also don’t have to play the PR game quite the way the actors do, which may occasionally make them freer with their comments. Ultimately, if a reunion project of any sort gets made, we just have to hope they try to do right by all who were annoyed or upset with the finale. Which won’t be easy, there are some pretty divergent views on what we want. For myself, I hope they give a speedy resolution to the amnesia story, and don’t leave any possibility of it dragging out for more than a couple weeks.

      • Christopher says:

        I honestly believe that NBC is aware of the following of Chuck has and with Netflix helping the numbers have grown since its been off the air. If Heroes is returning it will only be a matter of time before Chuck returns NBC sooner or later will realize they made a mistake with dropping the series. The got canceled not because of the fanbase that’s for sure. its funny the fans want it. The cast wants it the only thing hold it back is the network

      • Josh says:

        The biggest mistake nbc made with Chuck while it was on air was it’s night and time slot. They give their left arm for the 18-49 ratings Chuck got during S4 especially on Thursday I don’t know if u visit tvbythenumbers but Thursday is pathetic for NBC and has been for quite a while and every comedy pilot they’ve picked up for series since chucks end has failed miserably

      • atcDave says:

        I don’t know, I think NBC is done with us. We had a pretty poor relationship with the network after Comcast took over.
        I would look to WB, or Wonderland, or Nerd Machine, or whoever finally gets behind a reunion project to look to a different distribution site. Netflix might be a good choice. Or Amazon or Hulu. I would choose any of them ahead of NBC.

      • Christopher says:


        You right about that if your going to air a show like this. you can’t compete it with Monday Night Football. especially for the targeted demographic,

      • atcDave says:

        Funny thing is though how many of us found Chuck from previews that ran during Sunday Night Football. For most of the first season I watched Chuck on Tuesday night. Well until the Chuck sandwich in January.
        By S2 Chuck had become a higher priority than football, and that never changed.

        But then they really killed us with the switch to Friday. I discovered after the show was over that a half dozen of my friends never even knew there was an S5.

      • revdr says:

        I think that Warner Bros. would take a long hard look at the possibility of doing something if the Veronica Mars movie is a success. However, VM is one of those series cancelled before it should have been. The then new CW dropped the show (along with Everwood) in favor of prolonging the then already stale 7th Heaven, even though the creator, Rob Thomas had done a treatment for season 4 pushing the character 5 years forward. The good thing is all of the newer outlets available as Dave mentioned, like Netflix or Amazon, so I will keep the faith.

      • atcDave says:

        Hey rev its good to hear you sounding a little more optimistic these days!

        I’m sure a lot of folks will be watching what happens with VM very closely. Especially since its also a WB property. What happens there may be very important to a Chuck project. Not to say we’re doomed if its a bust, but certainly it will be easier for us if it makes money.

      • Christopher says:

        I won’t watch another wb again since the Dawson’s Creek debacle…Rev I won’t go down that road with you. I didn’t like the ending to that show too except I can live with it because it was a conclusion . 🙂

      • atcDave says:

        You know Chuck is a WB show. It was made by WB, and aired by NBC. But NBC didn’t make or own it.

      • Christopher says:

        I do know. that. I was just making a side joke with Rev. the whole Dawson.Pacey.Joey Love triangle which is actually worse than anything Sarah and chuck faced to be honest because all three were friends and it destroyed their friendship for a long time.

      • revdr says:

        Chris, you’re a fraidy-cat…….

      • dkd says:

        The Heroes revival and the recent news that a former Farscape writer is actually working on a movie script for Farscape with the Henson Company reinforce to me one reality. If the people on the business side of the show aren’t doing anything for a revival, it doesn’t matter what anyone else says. Now, Zac Levi is an enthusiastic guy who loves to make fans happy whether it is standing after his broadway show for hours to give them pictures or doing Nerd HQ panels. He also has access to the people on the business side who need to be convinced. But, when he says “patience” in his interviews, I don’t think he means “wait a week or a month”. I think he means it will probably take years.

        I also think that the key players on screen AND off screen don’t exactly hate that they get to go off and do other projects that get them known for things other than Chuck. I respect them for that. They have ambitions.

        So, it would shock me if we saw anything significant happen on a Chuck revival until at least 2017. Be prepared for a “five years later” story.

      • Josh says:

        You are probably right about the amount of wait time. I certainly don’t expect any real movement sooner than the end of 2016! I do think that since Chuck was the first major project for Zach, Yvonne and Josh it’ll always be something that’s dear to them. Most of the main cast for The Office also felt that way, especially Jenna, John and Rainn who are all awesome people too! I miss that show but unlike Chuck it ran its course

      • atcDave says:

        I think five years later is completely reasonable. And at this point they’re halfway there!

        I would actually prefer that to trying to pick things up at the beach anyway.

      • Christopher says:

        There is only one problem with waiting for the right time. The longer we wait the harder it may get to get all of the cast to do the movie. After 24 aires, Yvonne’s career may begin to take off and what scares me is if she gets too busy that she can’t do it because of it. We all know who should play Sarah and we all know who should play Chuck. This is my biggest concern and the other was the mistake Sopranos made. The long you wait the further out of the mind the show becomes. Now I don’t think that will happen to Chuck because so many people like us create these kind of sites and it is always fun to go on the journey again with newcomers.

        it is fun to go long the ride with people like First Impressions, who just joined the site and started watching the show.

        The Sopranos failed because there were a long time in between seasons and it killed the show’s momentum.

      • dkd: Thanks for the Farscape news! The article I just found sounds like early stages, but still more promising than any Chuck news.

      • dkd says:

        ’24’ is a good example of why waiting a little pays off. When ’24’ went off the air, it had grown a little tired and people were tired of it. Sometimes ‘abscence makes the heart grow fonder’ and they are getting a lot of buzz for the revival–a lot more than they would have if they had just given it another season back then.

        I wouldn’t worry about “cast availability”. We don’t know what will happen to Yvonne’s career after this. I can’t think of any female guest star for whom a guest stint on ’24’ meant their career took off. They took a lot of people who were relatively unknown and made them better known and that’s about it.

        As with Kristin Bell and ‘Veronica Mars’, the production schedule would be set based on the availability of the actors.

    • Christopher says:

      Let me first say I would never say the creators of the show got it wrong, it was their idea after all. However, that does not mean I have to agree with their execution of those ideas. It is the beauty of having an opinion. One person looks at a painting and I may have a different opinion on the context of the painting but never would say the painter shouldn’t of done it. For example, I love season 3. I like seeing Chuck let out of the van sort to speak and become a spy they all knew he was. Shaw was responsible for that. Lets be honest the reason a lot of people hate the character Shaw was because he got in the way of Sarah and Chuck, but it really was not Shaw’s doing. Chuck destroyed Sarah’s heart in the beginning of the season. What he did to her in Prague would be a deal breaker in real life. He chose duty over Sarah, but thats here nor there.

      Shaw brought a interesting bad guy too. Until Volkoff came into the picture Shaw was the best bad guy. When he shot Orion, I was like oh man not even Roark was able to do that. He broke Chuck in half with that. Plus I can’t blame Shaw for turning on the CIA he found out that the very agency he was helping take down the ring was also the same agency that had his wife killed. Which makes me wonder what the back story was the backstory on Langston Graham, Why was Bryce quick to turn on the CIA and work for Fulcrum. it makes you wonder right, Shoot Orion went into hiding and Mary Bartowski joined Volkoff Industries against CIA orders.

      As much as Shaw is one of my favorite characters, I still say the character ran its course in season 3 I don’t like the whole Decker to Shaw for the releasing of the omen virus. I also am a big fan of impact characters. I would of prefered Decker to Quin for the releasing of the Omen virus. or even would of been happy with Decker being more of a player throughout season 5 because I found Decker to be really Bad you know what,

      When he tells Chuck I don’t care Sarah Walker is dying I was ooohhh, but thats not what made me like Decker. it was what Chuck said to Casey

      We all know how tough Casey was, but for Chuck to say you don’t go pale when Casey heard Decker’s voice . I was like holy crap. Decker was an impact player for me.

      I am also one of those fans that is a bit quirky because I don’t believe Sarah feelings become strong until after The Truth because of all the events that took place with Bryce getting killed the day before really makes me hesitate on the whole idea. I do however think she became attracted to him maybe even liked him, but fell in love its too early in the story not to mention of Bryce supposedly dying the day before.

      A lot of people will disagree with me on that. I will also say the reason I don’t like the series finale is because of how it ended. I often compare it to The Pink Slip situation. We get a conclusion. The Prague incident was a major impact on Charah and it really was what drove them apart not Shaw not Hannah but what has been the problem at that point Duty vs Love we get the conclusion from pink slip by Charah getting together in the Other guy, which is what a lot of fans were hoping for in the series finale. not hoping they recover even though it looked like they were on the road to recovery. but thinking/hoping is different than knowing like we get in season 3

      • atcDave says:

        Well I don’t see any problem with saying I loved the overall product, but have a few major problems with execution. Just because the show’s creators had an awesome initial idea, and many great ideas along the way, doesn’t ever mean I have to like or agree with ALL of their decisions. I love the show, I think S3 was an unmitigated disaster, and I call the end mixed.
        Even more to the point, I see good and bad all along the way. Many good decisions, many questionable ones. In principle I have no problem with that. Everyone makes both good and bad decisions. But accepting that doesn’t ever make the bad decisions good. It just means I love a flawed product, and I will continue to praise and criticize as I see fit.

    • revdr says:

      Josh, you are absolutely correct; Zach is a tremendous person. I just listened to an interview earlier this week on The Movie Crypt on Geek Nation, and he is one of the most sincere people you would ever want to know. You should give it a listen if you get the chance. He says that he has a “master plan” to get something done, and I certainly hope that he can. NBC just announced today that they are doing a 13 episode Heroes Reborn mini series, so I remain hopeful that something can materialize from this. At least I am encouraged by the return of 24 and now this.

      • atcDave says:

        It may be to our advantage that few people in Hollywood have any NEW ideas…

      • revdr says:

        You got that right Dave….everyday day there seems to be a new version of an old series (Ironside, Buffy, Charmed etc…) being planed. Right now it’s How I Met Your Father. It gets real frustrating.

      • Christopher says:

        All I can say is that would be terrible. I think I need brain bleach for How I met your Father. oh brother

      • atcDave says:

        Or “Intelligence”; Chuck without the humor!

        When we get a reunion movie there should be several “Intelligence” jokes; just like Psych always pokes fun at Mentalist.

      • Christopher says:

        yeah what is funny about intelligence is I read once the creators never heard of Chuck except when you see the show its very similar to the intersect just a darker version.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah I saw those comments. Sounds fishy to me…

      • mr2686 says:

        Well, I haven’t seen too many comments from people here that actually like “Intellegence”, but that’s somewhat unfair since it’s actually a pretty good show, and actually nothing like the intersect in Chuck. I think “Intellegence” is more like having someone running around with a laptop (but it’s a chip in his head) being able to hack in to other computers and electronic devices, which actually is a little more believable than being able to flash information on people that could not have been in any CIA/NSA database (because if it was, the CIA/NSA would have used that info themselves). Like most things Chuck, I don’t sweat the small stuff, so that doesn’t bother me, but I think you guys should give “Intellegence” a chance and not compare it to Chuck.

  16. Christopher says:


    I would never say that you can’t have an opinion on a show whether its to criticize or praise something on a show. God knows I can’t stand that too. It is ok to agree to disagree. I also would never try to convince you that my theory is better than yours. Its just my its just my thoughts. When I first came to Chuckthis, I was like wow this is a site that I can comment on and also learn from because I always wanted to start my own blog, so I thank you for that. I respect everyone’s opinion on this site.

    We just both disagree on season 3 and the finale and thats fine, but the good thing is we both agree that Hannah would of been better in Lou’s place if we are subjected to PLIs and I don’t like the Jill.Bryce/Charah angle because of how Chuck and Sarah react to this. We also agree on Shaw for season 5.

    • revdr says:

      Chris; that’s exactly the way I feel. I learn a great deal from the thoughts/opinions of everyone here. You and I have agreed on many things and disagreed on others; but therein lies the fun of it. If we all agreed on everything about the show then there would be no real need to continually discuss it at all. My thing is that I am entrenched on certain things, like the finale, and nothing is going to change for me there; but I still like to read about others likes or dislikes about it….it makes me realize that our differences make us the same when it comes to Chuck….we are all very passionate about the show.

  17. Christopher says:

    you know whats interesting is out of 91 episodes there are a small amount of episodes we can all agree we can do without, and the funny thing is the average and stand alone episodes are very good. IMO maybe 20 episodes out of the 91 are debatable thats good odds if you ask me. There really no Jump the shark moments if you will. A lot of the issues discuss here are subjective pov

    • Christopher says:

      For example, the problem I have with Broken Heart is Alex Forrest rubs me the wrong way. She comes off really bad. I rather have a full season of Carina than see Alex Forrest again. Carina was like Forrest except after the CAT Squad episode I began see the appeal with Carina.

      • mr2686 says:

        Christopher, I also had a real hard time with Broken Heart for a long time, but have recently softened quite a bit. I think this is due to seeing Tricia Helfer in other shows, and realizing how good an actress she must be for me to hate her so much in Chuck. Broken Heart will never be a great episode for me, but at least now it’s not a bottom of the heap episode.

      • atcDave says:

        The funny thing about Broken Heart to me is that the set up is so staggeringly stupid. I mean all their “evidence” just shows that Chuck is smitten with Sarah. Which really, having an asset enamored of his handler should be a pretty desirable situation for the government. And Sarah could have easily claimed it made Chuck compliant and loyal. (Even if she knew better).
        Oh and second funny thing, just the week before Beckman had been bragging them up as her most successful team. And now she’s going to rock the boat because two members of the team might like each other too much?
        They really liked making Beckman look stupid!

        But after that wonky start, it delivers some of the best scenes of the series: hospital mission, Sarah getting fired, and the vault scene. Wow! The whole last 35 minutes (!) is dynamite.

      • Josh says:

        Yeah and the reason Chuck was, at least to Sarah the exception to the rule when it came to following direct orders is because unlike most assets Chuck never applied to be in the CIA, he was forced in and both agencies started using him as a means to an end and didn’t care about the problems they caused. Besides Alex Forest was a terrible character, so I loved when Sarah said “well then there’s nothing stoping me from kicking your ass” which she could easily have done! it’s impossible not to be sympathetic to Chucks situation or get attached and Casey is further proof of that:)
        Broken Heart joins several other episodes that the idea was stupid but the episode as a whole was great! One of the others for me was Chuck versus the cougars, great overall episode with a lot of comedy but the idea was a little lacking in terms of execution

      • mr2686 says:

        The vault scene is one of my all time favorites.

      • Christopher says:

        Ok, here is my problem with Broken Heart, ALex Forrest came off to me to be a little brash at times, and when Sarah said there is no stopping me from kicking your you know what was something I love, but each time I see her order Sarah to stay in the van or no further contact thats an Order. first off if she was fired than Sarah didn’t need permission to see Chuck. Plus I believe this was post Day 564 of the V-Log and Sarah clearly is beginning to act more like a girlfriend towards Chuck and you know what there was nothing wrong with it. They both needed each other and how she helped him find his dad was classic Sarah looking out for her man.

        it still doesn’t change the fact that Alex Forrest came of really bad to me. its like how some of you feel about Shaw. its how I feel about Forrest

    • atcDave says:

      There are broadly popular and unpopular episodes. Honeymooners, Phase Three and Colonel are generally loved. Third Dimension, Mask and Fake Name generally are not.
      But there are a few in the middle. Especially Misery Arc episodes like First Class and Nacho Sampler. And of course Goodbye is pretty mixed!

      All that complexity is what keeps our discussions interesting after five years (we started this site in summer of 2009). I’m still often amazed at who all will agree or disagree with me on certain episodes.

      • Christopher says:


        What is your biggest problem with Fake Name? I thought the way Chuck handled himself as an alias was well done. I will tell you this I prefer Fake name over the mask. just curious. You said before you like when Chuck doesn’t act buffoonish, he was in full control in this episode

      • atcDave says:

        He was a liar and a jerk, and he was banging Hannah. So no, I have pure contempt for his behavior in that episode.
        Buffoon is annoying. The others are intolerable. (moral issues/character flaws are more important to me than personality quirks).

      • Christopher says:

        Which was why Sarah said what she said. He was losing himself. it was a preview of what happened to Volkoff. except Chuck had a stronger support staff.

        Sometimes I wonder if Sarah knew what she was doing being with Shaw. It almost was like the deleted scene where Casey told Sarah to use her lady skills to get to know who Shaw really was? do you agree,

        See Dave here is the issue and I wrote about this in my article. read it I titled it Path to Prague Chuck really began this trend during Prague/ He shows up at the train station not the Chuck we knew prior, and you knew it too when he didn’t kiss her back. it was like he was possessed. Sarah knew instantly. So, technically he lied to both Sarah and Hannah. So the whole misery arc is Chuck’s fault

        It almost looks like the 2.0 was corrupting him in a way. except when he didn’t hear from Sarah he returned to his old self until Shaw came, which triggered the Volkoff like attitude.

      • atcDave says:

        And Chris that is exactly why I loathe S3 right from Pink Slip. They told a story I have no interest in seeing.
        Now even a terrible story may salvageable. Like maybe IF Sarah had set out to save Chuck from the spy/Intersect life the same way he saved her in S2. But no. They compounded the problem by having Sarah give up on him after getting her heart broken.

        Its never a problem of logic for me. Its a problem of ugly. I simply have no interest in the direction they chose to go.

  18. Josh says:

    Did anybody else want to blow a fuse when they saw previews for intelligence I certainly did! Chuck is one of the most original ideas and finding out the central idea had been copied really made me mad!

    • Christopher says:

      Yea, I instantly thought about what Chuck said in the episode Chuck vs the A team. When Sarah was describing the equipment they were using

      Chuck: Oh Stop that sounded like a CBS Show

  19. Josh says:

    I was actually talking about House, DWTS, HIMYM and for a time Big Bang Theory, too many “silly” shows for chuck to gain any real traction in the demo and cbs has been #1 since 04 so why NBC stupidly placed it on Monday at 8 is beyond me! But the football thing didn’t help ether!

    • atcDave says:

      Yeah the Monday night slot was a killer. But again, we survived there, not quite flourished. But Friday killed us.

      • Josh says:

        Funny thing is chucks Friday ratings were identical to this years Thursday 8-10 lineup
        I actually got ideally invested in Chuck near the end of s4 (only saw it periodically before that point) I was crushed when I found out s5 was it;(

      • Christopher says:

        Yea, there was only one time fridays was good for tv it was called TGIF boy meets world. family matters. step by step all great shows and all worth it in my view

      • Christopher says:


        I just keep thinking about what Bryce said in the pilot. It truly is hard to say goodbye,

      • Josh says:

        And how ironic chucks statement about his 5 year plan is

      • Christopher says:

        Actually what is funny is both Chuck and Bryce are trying to escape their predicaments at the same time, which a great way to start a show that action sequence in beginning of the pilot episode is what hooked me all the way until Casey shoots bryce and says

        DONT MOVE

    • Christopher says:

      How I met your Mother is a good show though. There was a great cast on that show. Neil Patrick Harris has surpassed his Doogie days thats for sure. see here is my biggest complaint when it comes to DWTS and Kardashians. These shows are terrible. yet they stay on the air longer than shows like Chuck which has a strong following, I don’t get networks sometimes. I mean I remember when Eliza Dushku had a show called Tru Callings and I was like this is cool show, and they dropped it. they didn’t give it a chance which is annoying. now a days networks don’t allow shows to grow we will never see another 90210 or Cosbys because the networks have to answer to share holders and budgets

      • atcDave says:

        The big problem with the reality shows and competitions is they’re dirt cheap to make, and draw huge numbers from the moron contingent. Which unfortunately is a popular demographic with advertisers…

      • Josh says:

        I’ve watched HIMYM strictly on Netflix and love it:) I agree with u about garbage tv shows also, they annoy me to no end!

      • revdr says:

        Fox gave Tru Callings a shot, but the show just never clicked. It did last for 1 1/2 seasons though.

    • revdr says:

      I tend to give NBC a little more credit than some when it comes to Chuck. If ratings had been the only factor in Chuck’s survival then realistically we never should have gotten a season 3. Probably season 2. And we almost didn’t by some accounts. But Chuck had one of the most ardent, vocal and creative fan bases that I have ever been a part of. And I think that we, and proudly so, played a huge part in saving Chuck from the scrap heap.

      • Christopher says:

        and its because we all know that Zac Yvonne and the rest of them are good people. and excellent actors and actresses. I can honestly say I can’t picture anyone else playing those roles as well or better. Just like a prize fighter I just would like to see one more run.

      • atcDave says:

        NBC had a regime change during S4 though, and the new management was never as helpful as the old. I could have been appreciative after the S3 renewal, and large back order for S4. But the Comcast guys were dismissive and rude. Just like their customer service for cable…

      • Josh says:

        CW had a similar issue also the old president tried to banish supernatural to Fridays but it clawed its way out and now it’s ratings are their highest in 31/2yrs!

      • dkd says:

        To be fair to the “new regime”, but the time they took over Chuck, it had already been on a few years and the key question was how much longer to keep it on. By that time NBC had tried pretty much everything to make Chuck a hit–from 3D episodes to a huge promotion going into Season 3. The longer a show is on, the less impact promotion has.

        They did invite some of the cast to their upfront party going into Season 5. I met them there. They actually promoted the show’s move to Friday fairly well, along with it’s partner–the new Grimm.

        What happened? The promotion worked for Grimm–which got great ratings–and not for Chuck. They aired the same night.

      • Part of this is due to the vast difference in the genres, and bad luck but any show that started on a in a non graveyard slot and then move to 1 (especially prime time see a fall in ratings by about 50%) the ironic thing is that, Chucks Friday ratings were exactly the same as the comedy’s (at their lowest points) that were canceled by NBC in recent years. I’m sure this makes all us fans angry because we are a loyal group. It’s for this reason that I think Chuck would flourish on CW! Proof of this is shown by SPN, Smallville and OTH, all three survived for a long 9 or 10 seasons and two made it thru the “Friday Night Death Slot”, SPN is even still on and kicking butt by CW standards!

        Does anybody agree with me about this!?

      • Ernie Davis says:

        DKD, I was initially positive about the new regime at NBC, but two things soured me on all the positive steps they took. The first was that they made note to announce Chuck’s move, but also that this was it’s final season. It’s an iffy way to promote a show if you ask me. “Hey, tune into this show we’re planning to cancel.” Then the remarks aimed at the fans were just plain unnecessary.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Ernie especially those snide remarks. Classless.

      • atcDave says:

        Josh I can imagine a lot of scenarios where Chuck could have continued on for quite some time yet. Even at NBC its ratings were never that out of line with its slot and how other shows have done. But given how bottom end those numbers were, I’m not shocked the network was ready to try something else. Of course I wish someone else had picked it up, but those things are pretty uncommon.

      • It’s seems like the last 7 years shows that maintain average ratings (in relation a networks average as a whole) are kept in production just long enough to produce enough episodes for syndication or is this just my imagination!?

      • dkd says:

        It is not considered a negative ratings-wise when you announce a show is getting a chance to finish up it’s storyline. Breaking Bad did it. So, did dozens of other shows.

        In fact, you are the first person I’ve hear consider it a negative for a show to get that opportunity. This was something they worked out with WB.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        DKD, I’m not talking about the planned ending or that NBC gave them one, those are good things, I’m just referring to a side effect of announcing the final season. If I wasn’t watching before I’m certainly not going to start now.

      • dkd says:

        Josh– (and others)
        There are two sides to keeping a series on air–its revenue and its cost. Some of you know this, but ratings are what the advertisers use to determine what they are willing to pay to advertise in a show and that becomes the revenue that NBC gets. The cost of a show to a network is the license fee the production company charges them.

        The production company–WB in this case–bears the cost to produce the show and that is usually at a deficit until they can recoup in syndication. As Chuck’s ratings dropped, it’s ad revenue became less for NBC. Thus, WB had to lower its license fee to convince NBC to air the show. With a lower license fee coming in, Chuck got continuous budget cuts to produce the show. There came a point where WB couldn’t or wouldn’t produce the show any cheaper and everyone–NBC and WB–no longer felt the show was or could be profitable for them.

        The Subway deals helped out a lot because it brought in additional revenue. But, even a sponsor like that isn’t going to increase what they pay as viewership goes down.

        Primarily, the fifth season was a business deal that happened to give them an opportunity to finish the show. I doubt that Chuck would have maintained its ratings even if it stayed on Monday.

        It’s interesting to note–for people who thing Monday is awful–that NBC’s highest rated show is now on Mondays at 8PM–with pretty much the same competition Chuck had.

      • That’s why the ratings system needs changing, people don’t watch scripted shows live nearly as much as they used to so I hope that does change at some point

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Josh its funny, I think sports and news are the only things I EVER watch live now. And I know very few people under the age of 70 who do watch live television. I think various forms of pay per view are where all future growth will come, the old model is toast. Probably won’t be long before sports and “reality” programming will be the only things left on networks.

      • That is easily the most depressing thing I’ve ever heard….

      • oldresorter says:

        Dave – I was reading something about House of Cards which my son told me he and all his friends watched, and I came across a quote that the only thing college kids watch / pay for is Netflix. I think it may have been on a podcast, so I’m not sure I can dig out the link. Maybe one of the media savy folks here can comment if that’s true or not.

        If true, it isn’t just you who has turned off network tv. You and I are passing the age of relevance. But it the twenty somethings quit watching the networks (and maybe even major cable), its pretty much over. Will be interesting to watch.

        The good news for the chuck fan perspective, Levi is more ‘in tune’ (pardon the play on words) with these issues (whatever they are) than most, so he might lead Chuck to a high value, hi return, hi reward type solution eventually. That’s my hope at least.

      • atcDave says:

        Jason I actually think this could be a great thing, because you and I will no longer be irrelevant. It won’t be up to some advertising guru to say we’re too old; our dollars are the same as anyone else’s. So if a show can sell to 50 somethings, well advertising doesn’t even play into it! At least not in terms of “key demos” and such nonsense.

      • oldresorter says:

        Dave – excellent point. I was looking a little farther along the curve, to the point where the nurses are filling up our water bottles.

        But yes, some models we will be much more relevant, as paying customers. I agree.

        I think I mentioned, my mom and dad are both alive, living in the house I grew up in, both in their mid 80’s, both do volunteer work yet, my mom bowls and golfs, they mow lawn, garden, etc. I stopped by last night, to visit, got to watch the ‘carrier pidgeon’ ep of Gilligan’s Island. Last time I vivited, I watched Bonaza. I knew what was going to happen in each one, but they didn’t, and I could tell, they LOVED both shows. So some day, you and I might get to watch all five seasons of Chuck, as if it was the first time.

      • atcDave says:

        The mixed blessing of senility!

      • revdr says:

        Speak for yourselves with the senile stuff guys. I still watch lots of live tv…HIMYM and Castle tonight for instance. But when you also like Blacklist and now Intelligence (it’s kinda’ growing on me) on at the same time the DVR becomes a close, personal friend. It does help these days that you can jump on Netflix or ITunes or HULU or whatever at your convenience, but I hate to be lumped into that category. I’m 40 days from 61 and I’m still going to the comic book store on Wednesday and to Best Buy tomorrow to pick up my copy of Thor:The Dark World. The world has changed a lot, unfortunately, I’m set in my ways….baby boomer tv viewer and proud of it!!!!

      • atcDave says:

        Funny rev, I’ve got a Best Buy gift card from Christmas that will be used tomorrow for Thor and Gravity. I’m excited.

        I do watch an hour or two of television every night. But its always via DVR. I’ll watch Castle tonight, from last week (didn’t watch anything else during Olympics). And since my wife won’t stay up past ten, we actually always watch it a day or two after. And that’s typical. There is nothing except sports that we watch without zipping through commercials. And thanks to that Olympics hiatus (from viewing!) we’ll just be catching up for several weeks.

        But my point would just be that the DVR is part of what’s changed viewing. The commercial model is dead.

      • dkd says:

        “That’s why the ratings system needs changing, people don’t watch scripted shows live nearly as much as they used to so I hope that does change at some point.”

        Usually I find people who say that know very little about the ratings system. The ratings system is not designed to count how many people watch a TV show. It’s designed to serve the networks and the ad agencies in a business transaction. That means it will change when they want to change it. Currently, business is transacted between network and advertisers based on “C3” ratings–the ratings the commercials get within three days and not the rating the show. There’s talk of changing it to C7, but if you think that advertisers are going to start paying for viewers who aren’t watching their ads at all, I’d like to sell you a car and deliver half the car. Would you be okay with that?

        As long as there are people watching the ads–and there are quite a few–there will be an ad-supported TV system. It may have less scripted shows on it, but it will exist.

        If a large percentage of the audience is no longer watching the ads, the challenge isn’t for the ratings system to change–it’s serving the purpose it’s been given by the people who pay for it–but for the producers and distributors of the content to find some other way to earn revenue and monetize their audience. If they can’t, they won’t be able to produce these shows.

        “Yeah Josh its funny, I think sports and news are the only things I EVER watch live now. And I know very few people under the age of 70 who do watch live television.”

        Just under 50% of homes have a DVR and the growth rate has slowed, which means there are quite a few people out there who either can’t afford one or don’t want one. With Video on Demand growing, people are finding they don’t necessarily need a DVR to catch their shows. That’s good for scripted shows because VOD counts in the ratings as long as the commercials are the same as what aired. People can’t fast forward VOD. So, the growth of VOD at the expense of DVR’s is something the networks like. Plus, they are monetizing the content beyond three days by selling that commercial inventory to other advertisers who are willing to buy it.

        “Dave – I was reading something about House of Cards which my son told me he and all his friends watched, and I came across a quote that the only thing college kids watch / pay for is Netflix.”

        Beware of absolutes in statements like that. If every single college student has stopped watching regular TV Adult Swim would have tiny ratings agains the A18-21 demographic. It does not have tiny ratings against that demo.

        “The good news for the chuck fan perspective, Levi is more ‘in tune’ (pardon the play on words) with these issues (whatever they are) than most, so he might lead Chuck to a high value, hi return, hi reward type solution eventually. That’s my hope at least.”

        Believe me. There are people at Warner Brothers who know a lot more about this stuff than Zac does.

        “I still watch lots of live tv…HIMYM and Castle tonight for instance. But when you also like Blacklist and now Intelligence (it’s kinda’ growing on me) on at the same time the DVR becomes a close, personal friend. It does help these days that you can jump on Netflix or ITunes or HULU or whatever at your convenience, but I hate to be lumped into that category. I’m 40 days from 61”

        The median age of people who watch Castle is 58. So, you are near the middle.

        “But my point would just be that the DVR is part of what’s changed viewing. The commercial model is dead.”

        Ad-supported TV far from dead. Even Hulu sells ads. There just are going to be other commercial models developing along side it. I don’t think an “all pay” scenario like Netflix and Amazon Prime can ever produce the volume of content than the marketplace demands and there will still be people who don’t want to pay. Netflix has gotten to the size of HBO for its subscriber base and HBO only has 29% of the U.S. as subscribers. We’re moving to a multi-dimensional world of content where several different models will exist. But, I still see a portion of the population who either can’t afford to pay for TV–and that includes owning a DVR–or don’t want to and are happy for the advertisers to continue to foot the bill.

      • Duckman says:

        I remember seeing a few toyota? comercials during Chuck where awsome and ellie bragged up their toyota in kind of an extra scene sorta way. At the time I thought that was genious as I actually enjoyed watching those commericials, instead of muting or skipping them. If the producers want me to ever watch commercials again, thats how it’ll happen. I’m perfectly willing to pay a fair price for content, but I have no patience for today’s advertising model. Of corse I’m 48 so I don’t matter anyway.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Duckman I’ve seen a few product integrations like that where I’ll actually watch. But outside of live sports that’s about the only way. I’d much rather just buy my content and not have any commercials.
        And I think that’s the trend. It looks to me like the networks mostly aim for lowest common denominator stuff. I still watch a few shows, but the numbers are shrinking.

      • oldresorter says:

        DKD – I’d say you are a )_))&^ – other than you obviously know what you are talking about. I do have one constructive comment to you, your POV is very close to how the horse industry felt about the trains, and trains about cars, and the American auto industry about the foreign competition. You either adapt or perish, your elequent, thoughtful and passionate defense of status quo, is what the knowledgeable do.

        ANd come on really some people know more about tech and stuff than Levi – do you think we are 5 years old? And you also simplified and acted condescending about my college comment, I said I read it somewhere. Is it absolute, of course not, what do you think we all are morons?

      • As far as Levi goes, I think our point is that he’s quite knowledgeable about the entertainment/corporate world. He’s still pretty young, yet managed to realize an idea and turn it into something that is steadily growing which is, more than most people do his age.

      • atcDave says:

        Funny Jason, I was thinking it was like getting a lecture on naval tactics from a battleship admiral in 1940. The battleship is Queen of the fleet! Pay no attention to those funny flat topped ships over there….
        Obviously well educated, but uh, maybe trying to downplay the impact of newer technology.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Let’s keep it cordial guys. DKD raises a lot of salient points. While I consider the broadcast network model essentially dead for scripted drama it is likely to survive for quite some time on sports, news, reality TV, etc, especially if they can identify new streams of revenue. They will however need to learn to do it with a fraction of the audience they used to command. It is also valuable to remember we are not their customer, we’re the product they’re selling. As long as there are people like DKD describes, willing to watch live, the networks will continue to try to sell those viewers eyes to advertisers.

        While battleships were well on their way to obsolescence by WWII they still played an important enough part in the fleet throughout that conflict to the point that we were still building them right through the end of that war. Their role simply changed from the strategic weapon to an anti-aircraft platform and coastal artillery supporting invasion forces.

        The broadcast networks are likewise shifting from the dominant media to a part of several giant media conglomerates. Their role as a part of that larger organization must change, but they are likely to have a role for quite some time. Just not for me for the most part. Like many, I’ve moved on from live TV.

      • oldresorter says:

        Ernie. Cordial is a two way street.

      • atcDave says:

        Which Ernie, was exactly my point. Battleships retained some tactical relevance right until the last one was retired in the 1990s. But they lost strategic relevance on December 7, 1941. I’d even point out that the best battleships ever built (Iowa and Yamato classes) were finished after their loss of prime relevance. They were the result of years of design experience and the best technology imaginable. Basically they were a fully mature technology.
        And that is exactly where broadcast TV is heading. It will continue on, it may even remain profitable for quite some time yet. But I think it will be home to less and less quality scripted content. That doesn’t mean there won’t be the occasional really excellent program. But we’re already seeing a shift of better quality content to non-traditional outlets. The “multi-dimensional” status quo is not stable. It will change a lot in years ahead, but I don’t think in ways that are favorable to ad supported television.

      • That point about quality scripted programs still airing despite an obvious uptick in (what I consider) garbage reality tv is an excellent point Dave. I think and idk if anyone agrees that quality scripted tv seems to come in cycles, every few years there seems to be a a healthy batch of quality scripted shows that run for at least 5 years and sometimes close to a decade. To me 5 years is the magic number that classifies scripted tv as a success, while 7-10 elevates it to a worldwide hit. This has and may continue to decline but I doubt it’ll ever go away completely.

      • atcDave says:

        Jason let’s not worry about who started what. Tempers run hot all around.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Dave, we’re pretty much in agreement on that. I think the scripted part of broadcast TV is already pretty much over, despite the fact that I still watch and love a number of network shows and gladly look for new ones. It has more to do with the producers as you alluded to than the networks per se.

        There is a great new show on Fox called Enlisted. They’ve got a tremendous cast and story and it is wonderfully quirky, but can still bring the emotions across in a very real way. It’s gonna get canceled.

        Fox put it on Friday night, and it has almost no live audience. The producers of that show have done everything right, except to give it to Fox to kill.

        The star of the show, Geoff Stults, had a previous one-season show on Fox called The Finder. It would have been a perfect match for the USA model for shows, and it also had managed to find a sweet spot between quirky fun and heart with a great cast of characters (which included Chuck alumni Michael Clarke Duncan and Mercedes Masöhn), but was doomed in part because it moved from Thursday where it got pretty solid ratings (2.4-ish against The Office, etc) to Friday where it’s ratings dove to final season Chuck numbers. At some point you have to wonder if Geoff Stults isn’t going to start to wonder about that next Fox project. It’s heartbreaking watching him on twitter, desperately trying to promote the show along with the rest of his cast and crew knowing that it is likely a doomed effort and that one more piece of quality family friendly entertainment will be canceled before it ever got a chance to be appreciated.

        I think in addition to viewers preferring other non-traditional outlets we’re going to see the producers move more and more to outlets like Netflix, Amazon and the cable stations where your show isn’t canceled within weeks if the numbers aren’t there immediately.

      • Fox is easily the most notorious network for cancelations due to stupid scheduling or the “Friday Night Death Slot” Family Guy is the one exception to that rule (which however small it might be) gives me hope for Chuck and hope is thing that can never be extinguished unless we allow it to be. Family Guy was resurrected bc of massive renewed interest, just like Arrested Development.

        Scripted Tv is a like gambling the outcome is about timing, circumstances, placement and luck. The Office (U.S) is a great example of a show that survived based on all 4 of those reasons. It was picked up to series at the right point in time and aired S1 shortly before, The 40 Year Old Virgin was released, millions of people saw Steve Carrell’s comedic potential after that movie and it became a cult classic. NBC noticed this fact and renewed The Office for S2 with heavily increased promotion and a great time slot. It’s ratings skyrocketed over the next 3 seasons, peaked at S5 and slowly declined but kept high enough averages to remain NBCs highest rated comedy. It went off air exactly when it should’ve too and is now among history’s best comedy’s. It’s the first and best mockumentry style (U.S) comedy.

        Sometimes networks are smart and other times they’re stupid..I agree 100% about Enlisted tho it’s great, unfortunately the Big 4 (play on words, lol) just didn’t line up.

      • atcDave says:

        Fox gives shows a notoriously short leash too. Not to mention the way they jerk around the schedule and change the order of things.
        I could easily see where a producer would rather get things done in whole season chunks like Netflix and Amazon are doing, and not have to worry about getting the plug pulled before they even finish an initial “commitment!”
        This sort of change is good news for all of us.

      • dkd says:

        If I sounded condescending I apologize. I can get passionate about this topic and frustrated, as well. I didn’t have time to review the post before posting it because I was in a rush.

        “I do have one constructive comment to you, your POV is very close to how the horse industry felt about the trains, and trains about cars, and the American auto industry about the foreign competition. You either adapt or perish, your elequent, thoughtful and passionate defense of status quo, is what the knowledgeable do.”

        One of the things I tried to get across is that the industry IS adapting. The networks embracing Video on Demand to bolster their C3 numbers is an adaptation. Their getting Nielsen to redefine what a “TV household” is to include households without traditional TV sets is an adaptation. The ad industry expanding their use of online video sources is an adaptation. There is no “status quo”. There is change happening constantly.

        It’s because I know this that I get short when people say there is not change occurring.

        Producers of scripted content are exploring different ways to monetize their content whether its through foreign partnerships or distributing to Netflix rather than traditional syndication avenues.

        Last year, the cable upfront alone took in $9.8 Billion in ad spending. If you count scatter dollars, it is even more. That’s not going to disappear or be transferred somewhere else next year or even five years from now.

        There’s a lot of “I do this” and “I do that” in this discussion without regards to the total population of the country. I sense that most of you have a higher than average income, a higher than average intellect, and a higher than average embrace of technology. You aren’t “average”.

        Quality is in the eye of the beholder, but the five major broadcast networks still fill a good portion of their schedules with scripted TV and there are currently 92 scripted shows on their list of pilots for next season. Add in all the cable networks from small to large that have at least one scripted show and there are probably more scripted shows in production now than there were in the 70’s when there were only three broadcast networks. We even have networks formerly known for “reality” like History doing scripted with The Vikings and Discovery doing that Klondike mini-series.

        And lets not forget Netflix and Amazon.

        Even if the total number of scripted shows declines by 10%, we will still have more in production than 20 years ago.

        (I’m bracing for more attacks.)

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Yup, it’s Firefly all over again! They’re even airing episodes out of order.

      • atcDave says:

        DKD you’ll get no argument from me that total scripted programming is increasing. But its increasing through a broad range of venues, and I think ad based network television will be a diminishing part of that. Now some of those companies may remain relevant by embracing new distribution methods. But I don’t believe the broadcast networks themselves will be significant players in scripted programming ten to twenty years down the line.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        DKD, for the most part I think we are all saying the same thing. The industry is adapting by shifting scripted content away from the broadcast networks, or at least getting revenue other than the broadcast networks to support their shows. I think this trend is going to accelerate for several reasons. You can probably give us the real rundown and correct me where I’m wrong.

        1) Scripted TV shows are failing faster and at a higher rate on the broadcast networks. That is just an impression on my part, but it seems that nearly all the networks anchor at least some of their nights with reality TV as opposed to scripted. And again, just an impression on my part, but outside CBS it seems that 75-80% of new scripted shows fail right out of the gates. That seems awfully high to support much ad revenue.

        2) As you mention this board certainly seems to skew more prosperous, tech-savvy, and intelligent than the general population, but aren’t those precisely the demographics advertisers want? Especially the wealth one? If the trend is there among the young and the wealthy to abandon live TV for scripted content (and yes, we are comparing anecdotal stories as opposed to real data) what does that do to the revenue model?

        3) As producers have more outlets and competition for content continues to grow the content will go to whatever outlet can offer the most attractive deal, and alternate outlets can offer to support shows in a way that broadcast TV certainly doesn’t seem to be able to.

        Like I said, just tossing ideas and theories around for fun, and we know you do this for a living and it must get frustrating watching amateurs prognosticate (for the record I didn’t see anything to give offense in your post) but if you can bear with us I at least think I get a lot out of your posts.

      • oldresorter says:

        Thx DKD – everytime you post, I learn a boatload about how the industry works. I don’t know what your relationship is to broadway, but when you post something about Yvonne or Zac in NYC, it’s some of the best stuff posted here. Its an area I know nothing about other than what I learn on this site, or pick up reading a review or such. I enjoy your posts immensely, but would hope you are OK with feedback if you come off brash, it makes your message stronger in the long run. You obviously know what you’re talking about, and most of us don’t when it comes to the industry. I read and enjoy every time you educate us.

      • Me too! I know very little about the legal/corporate part of the entertainment industry so learning about its inner workings is very interesting:) My strength is definitely more with the PR part of it, I’m skilled at “reading between the lines” and have always been that way partly because I can usually judge people or things in a very fair way, there’s a group of companies/celebrities who aren’t in the industry for profit or for their ego but to leave a positive effect on all of us viewers/consumers. I credit my parents as the reason my instincts are usually so accurate.

      • dkd says:

        “1) Scripted TV shows are failing faster and at a higher rate on the broadcast networks. ”

        That’s really hard to quantify and I don’t have any numbers at my disposal, but my impression is that it may have actually slowed down in recent years. While there still are a few “dead on arrival” shows that get yanked in a week or two, I see the networks being a little bit less trigger happy with middling shows. For one thing, they want to wait now to see if a show is getting DVR’d a lot and that requires a few weeks of Nielsen analysis. While high DVRing can mean lower ad revenue, it IS indicative that someone really cares about a show. That means a show’s prospects in the aftermarket and on VOD may be good. As those revenue streams grow in importance, you’ll see more patience.

        Someone above mentioned “Enlisted”. Enlisted has been added 60% more viewers through DVRing than it gets Live + Same Day. Fox knows people aren’t watching live on Fridays, but they may see a sign in those DVR numbers that the show is on someone’s “must see” list. I can’t say it will be saved, but it’s in a lot better shape than if it’s DVRing was really low.

        We’ve also gotten to the point where the C3 rating for highly DVR’d shows can be higher than the Live + Same Day ratings that are regularly published. A show like Grimm’s C3 is significantly higher than its Live + SD.

        But, like I said, I can’t quantify it.

        “2) As you mention this board certainly seems to skew more prosperous, tech-savvy, and intelligent than the general population, but aren’t those precisely the demographics advertisers want?”

        That depends on the advertiser, but the heaviest advertisers are the fast food industry and the movie companies. The fast food industry is not advertising to particularly wealthy people. While the movie companies occasionally advertise prestige titles, most of the time its mass market stuff. Next time you are fast forwarding through the ads, pause and assess whether the advertiser is upscale or broad.

        “3) As producers have more outlets and competition for content continues to grow the content will go to whatever outlet can offer the most attractive deal, and alternate outlets can offer to support shows in a way that broadcast TV certainly doesn’t seem to be able to.”

        I think everyone in town will want a Netflix or HBO deal, but those deals are in short supply compared to the number of writers and producers who want them. As prestige people move from the movie industry to work with Netflix, it kind of pushes out the people who have been working in TV all along. JJ Abrams is still cutting deals with the major networks. Vince Gilligan is coming off his Breaking Bad success and developing a show for CBS. They must be doing that for a reason.

        We also have to acknowledge that even Netflix and HBO cancel shows. Getting a show picked up by them is not like getting a “your show will never be canceled” card. They may not be driven by ad revenue, but they do pay attention to how many people are watching their shows.

        There’s also the “mass market” producers of shows like CSI and NCIS–both of which have spin-offs in development. There’s a place for those producers and for those shows that appeal to the mass market. I’m sure whoever produces NCIS is never going to get a Netflix deal, but I’m sure he or she is doing quite well financially anyway.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        I think everyone in town will want a Netflix or HBO deal, but those deals are in short supply compared to the number of writers and producers who want them. As prestige people move from the movie industry to work with Netflix, it kind of pushes out the people who have been working in TV all along. JJ Abrams is still cutting deals with the major networks. Vince Gilligan is coming off his Breaking Bad success and developing a show for CBS. They must be doing that for a reason.

        Agreed, but then Michael J. Fox can get a whole season commitment out of a network without a pilot, so I’d assume JJ Abrams and Vince Gilligan can get a more favorable deal out of the broadcast networks than just anyone.

        One other trend that I’m liking is the recent move away from pilot season. I personally want fresh new TV year round, so these summer limited series are good news to me.

      • atcDave says:

        I definitely like the more year round approach. Although there still are noticeable slump periods, like all of December!

      • mr2686 says:

        I DVR a lot of tv these days, mainly because my schedule does not allow for live tv watching, and also to help fill in those slump periods. I do LOVE the year round new content that we get, and am just as happy with a show that puts out 13 good episodes a season instead of stretching out to 20 plus shows that have a bunch of filler. It’s hard, and getting harder to not embrace technology for entertainment purposes. If you don’t, you miss out on a lot of stuff, or at least you have to wait several months until that content might or might not make it to a medium you embrace. I find myself checking fan sites with like minded viewers to see what else they like or don’t like, and then checking out that content via DVD. I’ve found a lot of good cancelled shows that way, but it also lends itself to watching shows with no real conclusion. I so wish that when a show is green lighted for whatever number of episodes, that they write their stories with arc conclusions in mind so that there is at least a somewhat satisfying conclusion for the audience if the show is cancelled. An example of that was NBC’s Journeyman (started same year and day as Chuck). Although it didn’t come to a “real” conclusion, the last minutes of the 13th and last episodes were actually quite satisfying and left the viewer with a pretty darn good feeling.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Mr, if you haven’t seen it, Wonderfalls (another Fox victim) is a perfect example of a show that managed to do that. Only 4 episodes aired but since it’s premier was delayed they produced 13 as a stand-alone story that would feed in to future largely self-contained seasons of the show. Thankfully all 13 episodes were made available on DVD.

      • One other key ingredient to any show making it for the long haul or at least staying popular is cast chemistry, something I have to admit I highly underestimated before watching Chuck and The Office, two of the absolute best examples in that regard that I’ve ever seen:) Idk if anybody has seen John Krasinski and Jenna Fischer’s joint scene 2003 audition tapes for The Office but their amazing, one of those “lightning in a bottle” parings, just like Zach and Yvonne!

      • mr2686 says:

        Ernie, I’ve never heard of it, but it sounds just quirky and different enough for me to like. I think I’ll put it on my list to get. Thanks!

  20. Christopher says:

    I just finished watching the Orion Arc in season 2 and let me tell you if I could talk to CF and JS it would be that they should of kept Orion throughout the series. Chuck vs the Dream Job was so cool to see how Orion was playing dual roles not trying to reveal his secret and than maintaining Stephan J Bartowkski. I love how he nonchalantly sticks out the RI expo card just so Chuck could Flash it was really brilliant and he would of helped Sarah at the end.

  21. Josh says:

    I just noticed the time tracker at the bottom of the site, it’s weird to realize that it’s been that long since the final episodes aired…

    • atcDave says:

      And a little depressing..,

      • Josh says:

        Not as much as watching the series 5 or 6 times in 6 months (I have no job) but I didn’t get hooked in completely until the series was nearing its final year, so I’m a late fan but a diehard one nonetheless, Chuck is the only show I’ve had trouble letting go of, probably because it ended too soon

      • atcDave says:

        I’ll agree with all of that Josh!

      • Christopher says:

        Yeah, its depressing but its sites like this one that keep the show active in our minds and the best part about it is we all feel we didn’t see the last of Chuck

      • Josh says:

        To quote one Cole Barker “I couldn’t have said it better myself.” Part of the reason I like Chuck so much is that while some episodes are better than others their wasn’t any universally bad episode and the music (both soundtrack and score) was always perfect!

      • Christopher says:

        Josh i am the same way except I’ve been watching the series for three months now and already been through it 6 times as well. usually what happens to me is I go back to the beginning once I get near the end of season 4. for some reason the wt/wt portion of the relationship is always fun to watch

    • Christopher says:

      I try not to look at maks me tear.

      • Josh says:

        That’s true 564 days is like a year and a half in, so around I’d say..episode 2-10 which was I believe Chuck versus The Delorion when her father told her his impression of Chuck and he stashed the money with him because he new Chuck loved and wouldn’t betray her, that to me is when she realized that she’d fallen completely in love with him:) also You’ve got to love someone a heck of a lot to refuse to hurt them when they’ve been brainwashed and are attacking you, and (vest aside) are willing to let them shoot you, looking at that scene in Chuck versus Sarah from that perspective makes it (at least for me) much easier too watch

      • revdr says:

        You see, that’s where we differ. I’m a day one-er…I watched every episode live from the pilot to Goodbye. I own all of the boxed sets (Blu-ray and dvd-complete with 3d glasses!) and I have probably watched every episode at least 25 times and my favorites 4x that. The exception is Goodbye. I can’t watch it nearly as much because we got no closure. The ambiguity drives me crazy. For me, it’s unfinished, that’s why I generally call season 5 my Pam/Bobby Ewing moment. I felt at first as though I invested 5 years in what became my personal favorite, only to be given the finger at the end. I have softened a bit with time, but as someone who has watched a lot of tv over the years, it was still a disappointment for me. But there is no discounting the fact that I still love the show and I’m very happy that we got the five years of something that if the fan base hadn’t been so strong and creative we would have probably ended the show with “guys, I know “Kung Fu”. That’s why I love talking about it, still, after 2 years.

      • Josh says:

        To be honest I can’t explain why the ending doesn’t bother me like it does other people..maybe it’s because as Elle states in the episode chuck isn’t the same person as he was 5 years before. Or maybe it’s because Sarah’s initial lack of being able to “feel” their relationship were due almost entirely to Quinn’s manipulation and brainwashing, he later admits directly to her in front of Chuck (who had moments before poured his heart out) that he used and lied to her. I think she felt awful (way more than she led Chuck to believe) about everything she’d done and said, which we could clearly see (thanks to Yvonne’s fantastic acting) as she watched the video log. I think there’s evidence throughout the season to support the theory that rather than erasing the memories, the Trojan intersect suppresses them and how severe this is depends on the amount of flashing and how often it’s done! It’s nice that the final plot and finale (even entire series) are open to many different POV and interpretations, that’s why Chuck is such an awesome show, the final scene always makes me smile tho, romantic and heartwarming but not sappy which was very nice:)

      • revdr says:

        Jos; I don’t doubt that Sarah’s memories are suppressed….not lost….but to me it was still not clearly explained. I didn’t like that Ellie was going to manufacture memories or that Sarah would even think about doing that. Chuck needed to be the hero at the end, I knew and understood that, it was about his hero’s journey after all; and to make the decision to choose duty over love was probably the toughest decision of his life. It brought things full circle. I actually understood and admired this, but just to say that either 1) a magic kiss would make everything ok or 2) they get to fall in love all over again, was a cruel way to leave things. Like I have said, I’m not a writer, but if I was one, I would never leave my audience hanging like that. It almost ruined a 5 year experience for me. It’s not my job to imagine what could happen. That’s what they left us with. “To be continued” gets old after a time.

      • Josh says:

        I know makes me wonder how much arguing the writers/creators did or even if the latter asked the casts input, I’m willing to bet they didn’t ask for cast input which is quite rude, that’s why I feel so much more respect for the cast then the creators, they made the final episodes worth watching because it felt so real, and that is the reason I can watch them, despite how they end up it’s all amazingly well acted. the finale could’ve been worse especially if they’d decided to have someone die, which thankfully they had enough common sense not to do!

      • revdr says:

        Josh, I honestly don’t think, in the long run that they ( the writers) had very much discussion at all. They knew going in that season 5 was the end, so it was all plotted out before the season began. And, unlike they did with Fringe, I really don’t think that they took the fans into account…at all. Like I said before, they were happy with the ambiguity, arrogantly so, and very smug with the notion of leaving it to the imagination of the fans, and encouraging Fan Fiction writers to fill in the gaps. That’s why I find it difficult to trust anything that they might do with a revival. No disrespect to any of them, because they gave us this amazing show, but their so called “love letter to the fans” read more like a “Dear John” letter to me. I liked many things about season 5, I really did, but the ending was cruel. I’m a romance guy, what can I say?

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah I sure am glad they had the sense not to kill someone off. What they did was tough enough.
        I’m pretty sure they avoided cast input, which if you’ve seen any of the interviews, is probably for the best. At the time it was in production, only Yvonne claimed to want what most viewers seemed to want.
        But it is one of those little ironies, the cast mostly built equity in my eyes, while the show runners did not. The other writers I’m mostly okay with.
        I’m not the sort who will ever say “gee I’ll watch anything so and so is in”. I’m just not. They will have to interest me one project at a time. BUT, everyone associated with Chuck, EXCEPT the show runners, gained goodwill from me. That does mean I will follow their careers, and watch whatever they work on that does seem of interest to me. They will even get a second look from me on things that don’t “jump right out”. So I watched Yvonne in I,Frankenstein and Ryan in Chance at Romance. That goodwill will probably follow them indefinitely.

      • Josh says:

        That’s exactly how I feel, the cast brought the characters to life and everybody including recurring guest stars have a permanent group of loyal followers:) besides the creators don’t even have to be involved in any kind of reboot! Smallville’s creators left after S7 and it ran thru S10 and was rebooted like 6 months later as a weekly comic:) I would rather wait indefinitely for a reboot done in cooperation Zach/Warrner bros then have something rushed out by the creators that is terrible. I don’t see any reason why with Zach taking charge the cast couldn’t handle it on their own with WBs help, he could do it because he’s already proven he can, with his company and the episodes he’s directed, I mean chuck versus the beard was and still is one of my all time favorite episodes:)

      • atcDave says:

        Rev I mostly share that perception. Although I’m not quite so negative on the finale, I would say CF simply does not look at romance the same way I do. The episodes he wrote were simply not overtly sweet enough for my taste. And apart from Cliffhanger, he never ended a story with the sort of warm and fuzzy I favor (even Cliffhanger understated it for my taste, but at least from the last Charah scene in the limo until Morgan said “I know Kung Fu” there was nothing that undermined the good he had done. Unlike Ring or Ring II).
        But in spite of my complaint, I do have to give CF VERY HIGH marks for letting the romance follow such a satisfying course in the last two seasons and letting the staff writers who did like to write romance (LaJudkins and Newman) write it in a very satisfying manner.

      • I can see both POV, CF’s way of writing romance makes the Charah relationship much more meaningful, but didn’t always leave us with the physical evidence we would prefer in terms of closure, It would have been nice to have a happy balance of both considering it was the finale, instead we got to much of the latter which upset a lot of people and not because it was a terrible ending but rather because the Charah relationship was so real and heartfelt from start to finish, the closest similarity I can think of is JAM from The Office:) Goodbye wasn’t by any means a terrible ending, I think a more appropriate word would be..unsatisfying

      • revdr says:

        Yeah, Dave, I agree that CF did change tremendously in-so-far as relenting to the realization that the romance had become the primary driver for the show. Cliffhanger indeed hit all of the right beats (except for not much Sarah); and I have always understood the need, especially in season or series enders to make Chuck’s hero’s journey the focus; but he seemed almost naïve in his contention with Goodbye that it was “cool” that Chuck and Sarah get to fall in love all over again. I keep coming back to that because it troubled me that he would think that that was a good thing. I believe that he gave us some of the best episodes of the series without a doubt, but he also gave us some of the lesser ones as well, because I think that he was determined to stick to his initial concept of the show, and the fans were the last thing on his mind, even if the romance became a casualty in that thought process. So, instead we were left with what has become the hallmark in the finales…the “to be continued”…. not always a good thing.

      • Christopher says:

        It is interesting to see how many people see what the writers tried or did not try in the finale and I am one to tell you that I am not a fan of leave it to the viewer to decide. However, I am under the impression they did it with possibility of a return someday. There is still stories to tell but after 5 years of being threatened for cancellation to budget cuts time slot changes and extended breaks between episodes is a lot of frustration for all involved They missed the boat on characters they should of kept and characters that lasted too long. But through all that we still were able to get 91 episodes and most of them really solid ones too shows how special Chuck was

      • revdr says:

        Chris; I agree…but you can close out a storyline and still leave an “easter egg” for the possibility for future adventures or stories to emerge. Fringe did it with the Olivia/Peter and the destruction of the Observers story but still left thing open with the getting Walter back from the future hook. Chuck could have easily done that but chose to use the leave everything up in the air approach. Everyone got their happy future, but with Chuck and Sarah, all we got was a maybe. I keep saying that I saw all of the hopeful signs, and I did, but what a cruel thing to do to what was the heart of the show. It never will make sense to me.

      • revdr says:

        I agree Josh Z.; I never thought that Goodbye was a terrible episode by any means. There were some great callbacks throughout, and the acting from everyone, especially Zach and Yvonne, was superb. It’s just that I felt like the last five minutes, instead of providing any closure, brought us back to wt/wt and that was not only unsatisfying, it was very unfair. It was a hopeful ending for sure, but an unfittingly cruel way for it to end.

      • They certainly could’ve added SOMETHING…even if it was something as small as: after the kiss they separate for a moment, there’s a close up on Sarah’s face her eyes widen and she says.,Chuck!?, as if fully realizing who he is:)

      • atcDave says:

        Josh I don’t quite buy that CF did anything to make Charah more meaningful. The relationship writers were always the staff writers. I think CF’s big contribution to the romance was simply in letting others develop it. JS might not have done that. If he’d remained the lead writer we might have had triangles even after the marriage…

        But CF, by his own admission, was tired of wt/wt. So he provided a nice outline for letting it grow naturally in the last two seasons.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Josh I’d eg a big fan of just a little bit more. The finale we got, could have been 200% better for me with only the smallest of changes.

  22. Christopher says:


    What I find interesting is how you brought up the music selection for scenes. it was amazing how each song fit the mood of the scene. I think the best example of it was Skinny Love by Bon Ivey. This song played in the Break up and it had a line that fit with Sarah holding back the tears from Chuck saying she will never be a normal woman.

    The line is and I told you to be patience and I told you to be kind. Joe pointed it out once in his recap of Chuck vs the Break Up. i was like wow the show is telling what Sarah was thinking great stuff. It happened in Season one when Chuck breaks up with Sarah the first time.

    My Heart is reeling. we know Sarah was reeeling there because her eyes and her actions tell you that she was not expecting Chuck to break up with her and should an Agent care if the cover is together or not. I think not except if the cover is for how she truly feels than yes it would hurt a lot.

    The brilliance of Yvonne in those two scenes really tell you gifted she is. It was like I was watching Sarah not yvonne. Its what made Chuck so good in my view.

    Look at her lips when Chuck is about to walk away she was ready to cry in front of him, but was able to hold her composure by biting down on her lip. really good showing of struggle between inner alter egos.

  23. Josh says:


    Yes! A few more perfect examples are when Sarah is caught completely off guard and tranquilized by Quinn, Another Wave From you-by M83 was a perfectly heartbreaking choice of much as Chuck wants to bust thru the bullet train door and save her before it separates he knows and so do that he won’t be able to:( , plus She tows the line in the final montage of scenes for that episode. In terms of action, I’d say, I am your skin by The bravery at the end of Chuck versus the living dead when Shaw downloads The Ring intersect gets me excited every time

    • Christopher says:

      Yea, how about that plays in phase three, woman or at the end of fear of death hidden place. great stuff and great choices.

      • I bought the best music from every episode and put them in the order they were used on the show..a Chuck playlist, it’s all I listen to now!

      • revdr says:

        Did you get the acoustic version of Miss Friday?

      • Christopher says:

        No, but I really like the music from Band of Horses and Frighten Rabbit the most

      • Christopher says:

        I also have a Chuck playlist, I am up to 80 songs they all great music selections. Its all I listen too. as well

      • revdr says:

        You can find it on Nico Stai’s website. There are actually versions of the song but the acoustic is the one played in Phase 3.

      • revdr says:

        3 versions…sorry.

      • revdr says:

        Oh yeah; Band of Horses, Phantom Planet, The kooks, Bon Iver, Iggy Pop, Death Cab For Cutie…I could go on and on. There was so much great music. I actually give JS a lot of credit for his love of indie bands a using them in his shows. Mark Schwahn on OTH was good at that as well…..

      • Yeah OTH is a close 2nd to Chuck in terms of music that fit the scenes. I do have to admit however that OTH is responsible for adding music to the only tv episode/scene that has ever caused me to truly cry..episode 3-16, With Tired Minds, Tired Eyes, Tired souls we Slept. The song, God Bless the Child-Michelle Featherstone…:(

      • revdr says:

        Yeah Josh; That’s a very good one….I haven’t done a re-watch of OTH since the series ended. It may be time for a revisit since I have all 9 seasons……

      • I think OTH blows all other high school-to twenty something series away, nothing even remotely similar stacks up in my opinion.

      • revdr says:

        I don’t know…the 1st 3 1/2 years of Dawson’s was pretty good….well written and acted. After Kevin Williamson and then Greg Berlanti left is when that show went south. OTH was very good however, especially with the brother/brother dynamic.

      • And Mark did a very smart thing after Chad and hillarie left OTH by changing to a sister sister dynamic, Of all the characters tho Peyton was my least favorite so I was glad when he swapped her for the exact opposite kind of personality in Quinn

      • revdr says:

        The great thing about OTH is that they pretty much maintained the same creative staff from beginning to end…several of which came from the Dawson’s Creek crew, including the on site showrunner/producer Greg Prange.

      • Christopher says:

        There is only one scene I cry which is when Sarah is telling chuck that she doesn’t care if he has the intersect or not. Man I love Phase Three. So much emotion from that episode. It really showed me how talented Yvonne is

        It also gave Sarah a glimpse of what her life would be like with out Chuck, which after this episode she began to be more comfortable in role as Chuck’s girlfriend. Remember what she said when they got back to Burbank. more importantly your home.

      • revdr says:

        What can I tell you Josh. Ultimately, you’ll find with me that I am a love guy. A relationship junkie, if you will….I lived through all the Dawson/Joey/Pacey stuff, the Lucas/Peyton/Brooke back and forth…6 3/4 years of Josh and Donna when will they crap on West Wing and the Luke and Lorelai saga on GG. I love the love stuff. That why I didn’t like that we got no closure at the end. It isn’t that I don’t hope that we get new stories in the future; but, what if we don’t? Gilmore Girls fans have been waiting and hoping for seven years now for something, anything, with nothing in sight. It can get discouraging. I like the fact that we have new avenues to go down that didn’t exist a few year ago, but the longer the wait, the less likely something going to happen.

      • Christopher says:

        You forgot Buffy and Angel and Pacey and Andy Corey and Topanga but as great as those relationships were they did not possess the passion and chemistry that chuck and sarah had in fact it is safe to say very few relationships on screen compared to charah

      • Christopher says:

        What makes Chuck and Sarah so special was the fear of lossing the other to someone else, death, or reassignment/bunkering they both need each other especially watching Sarah become the woman she never thought she can become Chuck taught her that and for Chuck he learned that despite being a nerd a beautiful woman like Sarah could fall in love with him it will take years for them to get together but they were together long before the two would acknowledge they were this is the reason you get jealousy and hurt feelings even if it is just a cover but really they were uncovering their feelings

      • revdr says:

        Chris you’re right about all those couples…although I might debate you as to the chemistry of Pacey/Joey and Charah. It comes pretty close. But I think the fear that permeated through Chuck and Sarah was not losing each other to other people, but losing each other through the job. Chuck always felt like he needed to prove himself; it wasn’t enough that the nerd got the girl…he needed to prove that he was worthy of her; the superspy. It’s referenced more than once, including in Honeymooners, although it was said both playfully and as a cover-up, there was a ounce of truth behind the statement. It’s brought to light several times in s4 and s5, and it speaks to Chuck’s insecurity about his worth, especially without the intersect, both to Sarah and to the team. For Sarah, she was insecure about everything. All this being in love stuff was such a new experience to her that she found it extremely difficult to navigate the waters. It took her weeks to say “I Love You”; she balked initially, she was scared to death of the talk about, let alone the thought of having kids and starting a family. Her biggest fear was being “a normal girl”. She simply didn’t know how. Both of them had insecurities, but the insecurity came from within. And because they were such crappy communicators, they kept getting in each others way. They basically needed to learn how to trust each other, and how to trust themselves….the head vs the heart.

      • Christopher says:

        And as soon as they finally do the job again gets in their way. It is very true what you just said and like Al Pacino said in The Godfather every time they think they were out the job brought them back in

      • revdr says:

        Of course, reassignment and death were factors but I don’t think that it played nearly as much of a factor as believing that they could not only be happy, but that they actually deserved to be……

      • What I find most special/compelling about Charah’s relationship is that they have completely opposite personalities but have had strikingly similar and unstable upbringings, difficult childhoods yet learned how to rely on themselves to make their way in the world. I don’t think they realize how much they have in common with each other, which is what in my view was the core of their initial connection in the pilot. As they learned more about how much they had in common they felt more and more compelled to help and watch out for each other, which because of their conflicting personalities caused tension at certain points.

        It’s really amazing how the writers were able to subtlety clue viewers in as to how much they had in common ( both dysfunctional/absent parents, which they blame themselves for, both quick to downplay or minimize their overall abilities and potential for personal growth, both stubborn) which they notice in each other but not themselves.

        Even as early as episode 1-3 I think we all realized that this is one of the most unique relationships ever because prior to Charah no creator/writers had bothered to create a nerd character that went against the stereotypical view of nerd-hot girl relationships were. Chuck is a nerd without question but he doesn’t lack social skills, knowledge of basic social manners, or charm/likability (unlike a certain wacky duo we all know) that a “typical” tv nerd would.

        My longer posts are usually more jumbled and I’m sorry about that:)

      • Christopher says:

        its not so much deserve, Rev. It is easy to see that, but when you analysis the couple IMV I feel in season one and two we have he most detail on their relationship. Season 4 is the relationship progressing towards marriage. However, season 2 told me a lot about their relationship. For example, they had a lot of very nice scenes of comforting each other, being there for each other, but when exes came to town Sarah was not so much into Bryce anymore at that point. Look at the difference between Nemesis and the Break up and than look at Ellie’s wedding. Sarah had already chose that Chuck was the one man that she can learn to be a normal girl, but three times in the first 6 episodes of season 2 Chuck referenced Sarah not being normal. This hurts Sarah a lot more than kissing Jill or breaking up with her. she had been down that route already.

        I will also like to say we had a discussion about Sarah taking a step back when Jill came around that was not until after Fulcrum held Jill hostage at the Opera House. Sarah was ready to lose control when seeing Chuck and Jill kiss so much in front of her., which if i am going to say what Bryce and her did in Chuck’s room was rude, so was Chuck flaunting his relationship with jill in front of Sarah. really classless.

        In my latest re watch, I have noticed that Sarah has been more into seeking a relationship with Chuck than vice a versa. Here is what I mean when Chuck and Sarah were working on missions together she was glowing, when she cooked for him in Fake name and Suburbs she was alive and happy. She asked Chuck out on dates while Chuck every chance he got was dating another woman. He never listened to her you can have anything you want. She is telling him in so many ways that she wants him.

        When they were together she had to tell him that she fell in love with a regular guy. He was the one who chose to download the Intersect 2.0 What do you think of that.

        Sarah was more into seeking a relationship with Chuck than Chuck was seeking her. He said he wanted her and loved her in season 2, but when the opportunity came he said I can’t to Sarah, and then turn around and get into bed with Hannah. I beginning to believe what Hannah said

        Chuck is not a nice guy

      • I agree with SOME but definitely not all of your points, which hopefully if u read my prior post (check the time stamp, which shouldn’t be more than 5 or so min ago) you’ll understand why, as I tried to analyze their personal backstories and personalities in relation to how it affected their relationship.

        Feel free to make any counter argument you wish:)

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah Josh I usually like to say Chuck and Sarah are as different as two basically good characters are ever likely to be. Chatty, sensitive and warm vs strong, silent and stoic. It is ironic that their backgrounds are so similar, but unironic that they turn out to be a great fit.
        And that portrayal of Chuck as a likable alpha nerd was one of my favorite initial parts of this show. I think they damaged it some in later seasons by going the buffoon route, but S1 Chuck was exactly the sort of nerd I would want to be.

      • Christopher says:

        I agree Dave, this is why if you look at Chuck in season 2 the way he starts to treat Sarah especially after Tom Sawyer is bit of perplexing because there has been several times sara has blatantly said you can have anything you want but doesn’t say the words that includes me because she is hoping he will say it for her the other thing is Sarah never broke up with Chuck it was all Chuck who did all that even in Prague Chuck broke it off with Sarah each time he does he has an excuse whether it was a real relationship not going to be normal or can’t do it because he wants to train to be a spy it is quite clear that Sarah takes a lot of blows and still stands by her man

      • I’m deep in season 4 right now, so I’m just curious what you mean by “buffoon”?

      • Christopher says:


        You are right about being there for each other and taking care of each other, but if the we are going dive into the background story of the two, than lets not for get Chuck had Ellie as a support system. Whereas Sarah had nobody, thus it was rougher for Sarah. she had the CIA and Bryce to help her get past her broken home, and that really didin’t help because they only used her for what they needed. Chuck never asked for anything from her . He treated her like a human.

        SO, I can’t by the background situation totally. Plus Chuck made a speech about it during the DeLorean “You need to know that your father’s sins are his not yours” I give Chuck credit for lines like this because it means he wise beyond his years, but at the same time what makes him a buffoon is handing over the omen virus to the enemy..

        All I am saying is Chuck history with Sarah in the first two years and a half was really bad. Sarah put more work into building a relationship with Chuck than he did. Sure they had very nice moments and he did tell his father that he loved her, but it was not convince like he said in in AH. you said that Sarah didn’t want to say I love you, this is true she didn’t because she didn’t know how to, but she showed it a lot of the time. let me explain

        When you are talking about an Agent/Asset situation the agent is suppose to be there but not get too close. Sarah did and she knew that if the CIA got wind of this it would be the end of it . She did say that the reason she could not be with him was because her job was to protect him. She didn’t say she didn’t want to she said she can’t be with him.

        the second evidence is getting him his degree, which she didn’t have to do because she is just his handler. Look at how Rykker treat ed Sarah. Sarah also keep telling him he can have anything he wanted, and each time she did she looked in his eyes with that includes me. even before Prague she tells him I am saying, I want to be a normal person again. I want to do it with you…..

        How many times did SArah have to tell Chuck before he got a clue, when GB said she was going to move Shaw and Sarah out of Burbank. Sarah was leaving this time for real and with another man. so, lets do the math

        3 years= 3 breaks up all by Chuck each break up Chuck hooks up with another woman, while Sarah did flirt with Cole she never pursued a relationship with him and Shaw was just because she had no other choice.

        Chuck says 4 times She will never be a normal girl. Still Sarah stays

        Sarah went against agency orders several times in order to keep Chuck in her life and free and the result was Chuck dumping her soon after. Still Sarah stays with him.

        Sarah gets too in a very public forum that his brain was deteriorating. Yet Sarah finds it in her heart to stay with Chuck because for a woman who didn’t know what love was sure knew it when it came to Chuck.

        There is so many more evidence of why I feel Sarah wanted a relationship more with Chuck than he did in the first three years It would be too much for a comment

      • I don’t think it’s necessarily true that he didn’t want her as much as she did early on, if that were the case he wouldn’t have bothered to maintain a friendship with I suppose we can chalk that up to a combination of Chucks various sense of betrayal by his parents, Bryce, his Stanford Professor, Jill (twice) and his lack of experience managing dual identities, Sarah’s defensive stance after the fake bomb kiss, shear stupidity at times on Chucks part (Prague incident) or being consistently shown up by more skilled spies (which Casey rubbed in his face almost daily the first 2 years) and the stubbornness of both Chuck and Sarah. I think they both played relationship chicken at various points in the first 2 seasons.

        Analyzing and debating stuff like this is therapeutic for me because I am almost always without regular conversation so I appreciate the back & forth:)

      • atcDave says:

        Chris I guess the problem was just that Chuck got very little encouragement from Sarah. So especially in the first two seasons it wasn’t surprising if he sometimes felt like he would never get anywhere with her, and he’d rather be in a “real” relationship, even if it was with someone less than Sarah. That’s exactly how I see Lou. Jill is a little more complex as an ex, but same basic thing where he thought he had a chance at a life with her, that he could never have with Sarah.
        Prague and Hannah are bigger problems. There’s really no excuse that time, Sarah’s escape plan, as half-baked as it was, was still an affirmation of sorts about how she really felt about him. So I really just have to reject the story. It’s too OOC, just not the Chuck we knew for two seasons. It just screams “the writers are terrified of writing an adult relationship so they’re going to try to put it off as long as they can”. And at the time they got the S3 order they’d actually been told by the network that this was it, there would be no more episodes. And that means 13 episodes, the back order was a surprise. They literally tried to avoid writing an adult relationship until they were trapped into it by the S3 back order. Of course this is also about the time CF took over the reins from JS, so it is possible that CF actually had no such reservations.
        Sorry, bit of a round about way of getting back to it, but I think Chuck was legitimately confused and conflicted those first two seasons. Less so afterwards. We’ve gone on at length about this in the past. I strongly recommend reading some of the S3 Alternatives posts and comments for more fans views on the whole thing.

        And Josh I saw your comment too!
        The Buffoonish behavior I object is generally when they are willing to make Chuck look like an idiot for a laugh. We see some of it in S2; Sensei and especially Third Dimension. Many viewers injected to it in S4’s Fear of Death. And I think by far the worst example is S5’s Curse. Other than that it is just occasional behaviors, but all of those episodes stand out for being almost ruined by Chuck’s behavior (for some fans).

      • Thanks for the clarification on that Dave:) I agree about Curse with one exception: the final exchange of words between Gertrude and Decker was the ultimate payback and something I was not expecting at all! Plus his expression was priceless lol!

      • revdr says:

        I tend to agree with all of you: Dave, Chris and Josh. But, if examine it from a broader perspective, there was always an underlying motive to both of their actions in regards to their basic insecurities towards one another, and the overall relationship. It’s very true Dave, that Chuck’s actions bordered on buffoonish at times, especially in s3, but I tended to view them more as boorish and monumentally stupid than buffoonish. He was, after all, coming to terms with the repercussions of downloading 2.0 and the responsibilities that came along with that. Plus, you have to admit that Chuck was, while all of the things that you described him as being, basically insecure. Especially when it came to Sarah. He always felt like he needed to prove himself to her. The intersect gave him some confidence, but that’s the point. It was the intersect that allowed him to believe that he was somewhat, and I stress somewhat, worthy of her. She was a superspy afterall. Both times when he lost it, it put him in the mode of feeling like he didn’t deserve her, as Morgan pointed out in Phase 3, and that just played into his basic insecurity as to his worth, not only to her, but the team as well. This was only enhanced in s5, because not only had he lost the intersect again, but this time someone else had it (his best friend no less), and he started to question his value to the team yet again. Sarah too, possessed all of those admirable qualities mentioned, but the one thing she lacked from the very beginning was any notion as to how to navigate a personal relationship. Yeah, she wasn’t very encouraging when it came to giving Chuck clear signals in regards to what she wanted from him, especially early on, but you have to remember her own basic fear that she didn’t know herself what she wanted, or deserved for that matter. She hesitated in moving in with him. She hesitated even saying “I Love You”. But it wasn’t because she didn’t want of feel these things; it was more because all of this was very new to her. Talk of family and future scared her to death, and it constantly made her hesitate. Her vows pretty much said this. It was the overriding fear of messing up that always threw these imaginary hurdles in their way. Once she finally just stopped thinking too much, and started to let her feelings guide her did she know that her heart was right, then she started to believe that she could actually have it all. Like I’ve said before, it was always heart vs head for these two.

      • It certainly was:) Which is why I find Morgan’s recite of Chuck’s prior advice and what Casey did for Chuck in Goodbye all the more powerful:) Btw did anyone else notice that Casey saved Chuck and Sarah’s relationship, not once, not twice not thrice, but FIVE that’s right FIVE different times.

        1. Implored GB to let Chuck speak on Sarah’s behalf, near the end of Broken Heart which likely swayed her to reinstate Sarah
        2. spurred the lie near the end of Colonel that saved Sarah’s job, thus keeping her near Chuck.
        3. Gave Chuck the pep talk at the end of Tic-tac, that made Chuck realize not give up on trying to purse Sarah.
        4. Went to Sarah’s apartment near the end of American Hero and confessed that he killed the mole, which restored Sarah’s faith in Chuck
        5. Gave Sarah the full Mission (handlers’) Log near the end of Chuck versus Sarah that rid her of the false information about her assignment and reversed the brainwashing Quinn had done.

        For being a stoic and hardened guy he sure cared about Charah being together:), despite all the antagonizing he put them through he probably saw himself and Cathleen in Sarah and Chuck:)

      • Christopher says:


        I am not going to say Sarah is innocent, she too had faults with not speaking up, but I am talking about the overall history, and I know the writers made some strange situations, but as I said before we as viewers can’t do anything about that, and just because I defend season 3 as a good season doesn’t mean i am blinded by the events Prague to me would of been a deal breaker in real life. I mean do you remember Sarah’s face as Chuck is telling her I can’t (no matter how you feel about what the writers did wrong) its the fact that Chuck did what all the other people in her life did disappoint her and what is worse its when she put her heart out there.

        DAve, here is the thing I can give Chuck a pass on the first break up looking for a a real relationship, but we both know after the first real kiss and than the second one the passion behind the kiss on Sarah’s part should of been enough for Chuck to see that there was something there. Sarah couldn’t just come out and say we are together. Not with Casey and the government in the way. Casey was still at this point duty first remember what he said in Crown Vic. So here is Sarah, who wants to be in a relationship with Chuck gets dumped and than her former BF comes back from the dead, she is stuck in a situation she can’t get out of The second break up was something that made see that Chuck doesn’t have a backbone he let Bryce get into his head and he did what he thought was the right thing to do except when you see his face afterwords its not being truthful and Sarah saw this too. However, being told by the man you love that you will never be normal is a lot for someone like Sarah to take. Than we get this other line with Jill

        No spy stuff, No Lies another punch in the gut. Truth but still its something that hit Sarah hard. but you already know i don’t like the whole bryce/Sarah/Chuck/Jill trapezoid

        I am also not saying Chuck deliberately do this to hurt Sarah, but it still hurts all the same

      • revdr says:

        Oh absolutely, Josh. Casey, underneath that gruff exterior, knew that Chuck and Sarah had something….something that, especially after learning that he had a daughter, he knew they needed to explore. You could see that, although he made the choice of duty over family, and love, he actually was a champion for Chuck and Sarah. It was ultimately his, dare I say admiration, for Chuck’s unwavering loyalty to family, that led him to explore his own sense of the same, and his desire to get to know his own daughter. It was his association with Chuck that gave him the desire to open the door to his own feelings, although he might never admit it, and seek a relationship with not only her, but the rest of his team as well. Over time, he not only began to trust them, but to care for them too. I mean, did you see his expression at the wedding? There was a definite sense of pride on his face.

  24. Going of subject for a moment, I have to say I’m very happy I found this site! I had been looking for a site to talk about Chuck with fellow fans as soon as the 1st time I finished the series but hadn’t found one. The back and forth has helped me deal with the fact that (and I say this because we all believe it) Chuck is in “limbo” for now.

  25. oldresorter says:

    I didn’t like the final two eps. I liked, but not loved, the scene on the beach. I think that’s backwards from most who found fault in the final arc, who generally liked the two eps, but disliked the ending.

    I’m pretty sure if I power watched on Netflix and not live, neither s3’s unhappy love interest arc nor s5’s melancholy final arc would have bothered me. Much of the problem for me was the suspense and odd promotion that went around the weekly release of the product vs the failure to deliver to my own expectations.

    Speaking of power watching and Netflix, any of you watch the Netflix orig series House of Cards? I generally don’t like shows where the stars are the bad guys, but Mr and Mrs Frank Underwood are part evil genius, part cartoon charactures, and part dramatic bulldozers. At times, they almost seem like Gomez and Mortica gone to cable.

    for those who don’t know, HOC is done in 13 episode chunks, released all at once. Once you start, it’s like eating cookies or drinking beer, it’s hard to stop.

    I’d love for ‘The Bartowski’s’ to get a 13 episode season run on Netflix, or better yet 2 or 3 or 4 such seasons!

    • revdr says:

      I’m right there with you on House Of Cards, oldresorter; It seems so much easier to watch them all at once. I’ll be happy to get 1 13 episodes shot of Chuck though, if only they don’t do to us what they have already done, leave us hanging!

      • The backlash from us fans on that issue has been vocal enough that I doubt they’d (CF or the other writers) make the same mistake twice:) or at least I hope…

      • atcDave says:

        Except CF is on record as saying how much he likes the open ending. His endings only work for me if there is another season coming.
        If he writes or produces a reunion project I hope some external forces intervene, and require something different.

      • I believe Zach and Yvonne would step in and make sure that CF didn’t leave us hanging again:) They made the relationship what it was untimely so I think they know what it meant to the fans, unlike a lot of actor duos it really seemed that even in the very beginning of the show they became those characters instead of coming across as actors playing roles:)

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah certainly Zach and Yvonne are the most in touch with what viewers wanted to see. And since they are no longer under contract, they would presumably have to agree to whatever story and script is chosen.

    • I certainly think there’s greater chance of that happening then say a Friends mini reboot/reunion, most of the cast has left those characters so far behind, especially Jen, plus there’s no reason to revisit it, as great a show that it was.

      • revdr says:

        I don’t think that Jennifer A would be the problem there. Matt L. gets very hostile when anyone mentions a Friends reunion. I figure that his unpleasant experience with the spin-off soured him to the character.

      • joe says:

        You bring up a very interesting point, Josh. Is there a reason to re-visit Chuck (besides financial, that is)? I think there is.

        You’re right about Friends. The last episode was definitely conclusive. And really, the Ross-Jen-Rachel thing was getting more than old (my personal opinion is that the whole show carried on at least two seasons too long, from a story-telling POV at least).

        Chuck was not on too long. We can believe that it went out on top of its game, but I don’t think anyone didn’t want to see more.

        And there were certainly questions left open. We really should try to list them someday, you know. That must have been deliberate; a way to keep us open to a return. Fiendishly, diabolically effective, too!

      • Writing plots is a tricky thing but I wouldn’t care as long as we eventually get more Chuck, Zach says he wants it to be accessible for All chuck fans,even he builds/creates it himself, besides JS and CF don’t strike me as the type to be selfish with distribution of their products and you can correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t WB basically own chuck not CF and JS!? I never understood how the legal aspect of tv works:)

      • atcDave says:

        Ownership is complex. But I believe, Wonderland, College Hills and Fake Empire all have a piece of the pie. But those companies are owned by some combination of WB, JS and others.

        My guess is; WB, JS and CF will have to sign off on any future project. But I think you’re right in saying it may not be a big deal. Especially if Zach wants to produce it through Nerd Machine (or through some new, later production company of his) or something. For now, Zach seems the likely focal of whatever happens next, and he seems to be on good terms with everyone. So I would think the legal/rights issues wouldn’t be too big of a deal. There are lawyers who specialize in sorting those things out.

    • atcDave says:

      I completely agree that the power watching viewing experience must be far different. Although I’m quite certain my taste would be the same either way, it seems likely S3 wouldn’t quite infuriate me to the degree it did if I’d been able to blow through it more quickly.
      I would also love to see a whole season delivered as a single package. It would be nice to watch at our own pace, without odd interruptions (Olympics, presidential speeches) and breaks.

  26. I just started White Collar (Bryce fans should know the show because Matt Bomber has the lead role) it’s quite entertaining!

  27. Christopher says:

    well, to me this was the annual I don’t trust you episode for season 5 and we have two this season and we talked before about recycled storylines a pattern throughout the series I find Chuck to be ridiculous in this episode. He clearly does not listen to his wife when she tells him she supports his idea. Sarah taking the side of her husband which is what a wife would do. Another strong episode for Sarah and another episode you scratch your head about Chuck and here is what I come up with

    Sarah believe it or not has put more into this relationship whether it was a cover or not than Chuck has. He finds a lot of excuses to distance himself from her. Whether its because he is a nerd, super computer in his head and used Bryce as an excuse to pursue a relationship with her. Sarah has gone all out for me most of the time. She has flaws but again Sarah has to bail Chuck out because of his Buffoonish behavior. The whole curse theory was really out of left field for me The final scene though makes up for it when Sarah tells Chuck you are not to go out on your own anymore.

    Something Sarah should of listen to her own advise in 2 weeks, but we will leave that for another time.

  28. Joe

    I would personally like to know why Nicolas Quinn felt entitled to the intersect, maybe because he thought the CIA had gone back on their promise and when he heard that Bryce stole it and sent it to Chuck he felt slighted because Chuck wasn’t a member of the CIA..,there’s also holes in his backstory, the 1.0 wasn’t anything special it was just a hub of passive information and the government never intended to upload it into anyone.

    Speaking of Quinn I don’t buy what he said after Chuck told him the Intersect wasn’t worth it! “Take a look at your wife, you think you could’ve gotten her without the Intersect!?” We know that’s a false statement because Sarah admitted in phase three that she didn’t care if it was in his head or not and wanted to be with him regardless. He destroyed Chucks life on purpose out of jealously that a “loser civilian” (paraphrasing) ended up with it instead of him.

    I care about this because Quinn was who turned the CIAs best agent ruined all of her relationships and shattered their just built civilian life. If the writers were going to create a character that causes all of that, his motives should have been clearly stated and properly lined up with series mythology, like with Daniel Shaw.

    These flaws are why Nicolas Quinn is the worst villain, there’s too much missing information.

    • Christopher says:


      I actually like Quinn much like I like Shaw. I usually am a fan of impact villians, and Quinn really did damage. I also like Decker too. However, the best villian was Volkoff. I still cringe when he says to Carmichael.

      Alexei Volkoff: And I will incinerate every single one of you including my beloved Frost. I’d rather she die than have to live without me. Give her back to me and I’ll let you live. *That* is how you threaten someone, Charles.

      Great stuff

    • joe says:

      Josh, I’m not “up” on Quinn yet – It’s been a while since I’ve seen the last few episodes. But we’ll get there soon.

      I think you’re right. Quinn is a force of nature and a major bad guy, on par with Roark, Volkoff and Shaw when you consider the damage he causes. He’s worse when you think about the personal costs to Chuck and Sarah, I think. Yet he’s unique because unlike the others, he has no real connection to their pasts and comes out of the blue. That’s why there are so many questions – he has no history to speak of and it feels like “missing information” to us.

      It’s weird because that’s always a clue that the character will not survive (and Quinn doesn’t). However the damage he’s caused seems to be much more permanent. It makes him seem even more evil than the others because he’s inexplicable.

      I can’t help but think that this is deliberate too. I may be alone in this, but the mystery about his vague origins makes Quinn seem much more dangerous and much more insane than he would otherwise to me.

      • oldresorter says:

        Joe if you read your words back to yourself, I’d ask, doesn’t it seem to make sense that Shaw was supposed to be this final big bad? It would be explicable then, wouldn’t it?

        And Quinn defeated Chuck, Sarah did not get her memory back, and no longer lives with Chuck in the actual TV show canon, even if we all can imagine a better future, the writers weren’t willing to let Chuck (or Sarah) win on screen. Had that been Shaw, could you imagine the uproar?

        My problem with Quinn, he seemed more like the pervert school janitor than a super duper bad guy. I got the feeling the only person on the entire show that couldn’t beat him up might be Lester, and even Lester probably could last long enough for Quinn to die of a heart attack from over exercersion.

      • joe says:

        Ha! Well put, Jason.

        I dunno. There’s a line from Castle (!!!) that makes me wonder about what TPTB were thinking. Remember Cptn. Montgomery telling Kate – more than once – “You can’t win. The best you can do is find a place to make your stand”? Chuck’s not Castle and I don’t think we would have liked it as much without the ridiculous humor. But sometimes I think TPTB wanted to drag it in that direction, towards Castle’s seriousness, if only a little bit.

        I suspect too that Shaw was supposed to be the big-bad at the end, but they had to squash that idea after Santa Suit, right? Shaw had run his course anyway, and after the 3.0, there was no place to go with him.

        I would have chosen the indestructible Vincent, myself, to come back for the finale. But that idea probably lacks imagination. Ultimately, I don’t think Quinn was really the evil bag guy in the story. His insane obsession was, which makes it more interesting in my mind.

      • That’s a great point joe. I thought Quinn was unhinged right from his entrance..and knew that when he made that spiteful remark about their relationship that things wouldn’t go well from that point. There’s a subtle difference between Volkoff and Quinn, while Volkkoff was insane in an enjoyably tormenting way, Quinn was pure evil. It’s one of the more brilliant parallels the writers came up with.

      • atcDave says:

        I think Quinn’s vagueness was deliberate so he wouldn’t distract too much from the more important Chuck/Sarah story. And it does help make him more menacing.
        There certainly were more interesting or compelling villains over the course of the series. But I think Quinn managed to be both pathetic and contemptible in a smaller part.

  29. Does anybody know if Tim jones plans to release a soundtrack of musical scores from the show? I’m curious because all of his original stuff is superb!?

    • atcDave says:

      I wish he would!

      Its been rumored a few times. But so far, no luck.

    • Duckman says:

      you can download a dozen or so original chuck “songs” from Tim Jones’s web site. If you don’t find it shout, it’s been a little while since I was there but the tracks were on there. Very cool of him I thought.

      • Thanks! I’m not usually a fan of instrumental music in tv shows but his pieces (most notably Chuck and Sarah’s theme song) adds so much emotional depth to the show!

  30. Gordon cunningham says:

    First off id like to say hi all as I’m a newbie on here, so be gentle. I have only recently discovered tv on demand as time was a major issue for me. Chuck is the second series I have watched through netflix uk and felt compelled to find out if there were like minded people online. What I didn’t realise is how big chuck was or the fan base that the series has. I had never even heard of the programme as I think the uk tv had it on an a Tuesday night on a backwater channel at some god awful hour. I only finished season five last week so it’s still very raw at the moment but I have to admit to absolutely loving this show from its pilot until the end. It’s works on so many different levels and hopefully with netflix showing these now the fan base will get large enough for a movie. Probably a tall order but who knows. Anyway I will stop babbling on now. Cheers folks and I can’t wait for some more input with you guys

  31. atcDave says:

    Hey it’s always great to hear from a new fan! A lot of scheduling and broadcast issues seem to work against us around the world. But even in the US it’s not uncommon to find someone who never even heard of the show. I think the title itself is not very memorable!
    But we did always have a pretty strong on-line presence, at one time there were a number of fan sites like this. Now not so much. But we have seen a significant increase in our traffic since the show hit Netflix. Hopefully that bodes well for getting a movie someday!

    • Out of curiosity, how much has the traffic jumped from since chuck has been on netflix?

      • atcDave says:

        Site traffic is always a moving target. Our all time peak was during the S3 Misery Arc, we had over 5000 hits a day for a while. We came close to that again during the run up to, and immediate aftermath of the finale (upper 4000s, but never over 5K again).
        By the time we started this re-watch, summer of 2012, we were somewhat under 1000 a day. Since then its bounced around a lot, but most often had been between 500 – 1000 hits a day. But the trend was gradually downward, after all we have nothing really new to say most of the time, just rehashing. at the end of last year we were most often around 600 hits a day. Now, over the last couple months we’ve been averaging closer to 1000 hits a day again.

        Its often funny how we can track our daily traffic. The obvious is that it usually goes up a little on Monday and Tuesday after our regular weekly post goes up Sunday night. When there is actual news, like a new role for Zach or Yvonne, or an interview where Chuck is discussed; we’ll see a slight increase.
        And man, if we get a good argument going about S3 or the finale (especially S3!) the traffic jumps way up. Sometimes well over 1000, for several days if the argument gets dragged out.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Our weekly average had been hanging around 4,000 hits for quite some time, but has recently jumped to around 6,000 per week. A lot of new names commenting too, so we’ve seen a real jump in interest.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        Sorry for the cross-posting Dave. I remember those 5,000 hits a day days. It was almost impossible to keep up with all the comments. But I’d have to put my favorite time blogging here as season 4.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah I agree. Part of it was we were all mostly happy with the show. There was less arguing, and it was all just more fun.

  32. Christopher says:

    The interesting thing about Quinn was the only real baddie to defeat TB. Team Bartowski took down Fulcrum, The Ring and Volkoff Industries. They all tried to split TB apart but it didn’t work. Quinn using his mind realized what would really hurt Chuck and that was taking the only thing that matter more to Chuck, which is his friends and family. His family in specifically Sarah. He broke down and was a shell of himself. Quinn accomplished this. Shaw tried and he failed. Roark tried and failed. Vivian tried and failed. It just goes back to what I was saying before Quinn is an impact player that you don’t leave to the final arc of the series. At least reference him throughout the series. Especially when Agent x files came about.

    I am a big fan of Quinn and Shaw, it would of been nice to see the two work together to take down TB except Quinn did it himself, which is what is even more cool about it.

    • atcDave says:

      Except Quinn actually lost. Completely and utterly. He’s now worm food. Because Sarah shot him, and Chuck defeated all of his evil schemes. And then they all lived happily ever after…
      I don’t see how Quinn won anything at all. He completely failed at every single one of his objectives and was killed for his trouble.

      • oldresorter says:

        Sarah is not Chuck’s wife as the credits roll. Chuck at the very end, didn’t win the girl. The only place they live happily ever after is in people’s imagination.

      • atcDave says:

        Oh yes she was. They were hurt, but together.

      • Ernie Davis says:

        The only place they live happily ever after is in people’s imagination.

        Fitting, since the only place they actually exist is in our imaginations.

      • Wilf says:

        An excellent point, Ernie. And one that many of us seem occasionally (maybe make that often) to forget!

      • oldresorter says:

        Ernie I strongly disagree, chuck and sarah existed as screen characters – google them sometime

      • Christopher says:

        True Quinn lost just like everyone else, but did he really? His mark was still felt. Sarah didn’t have feelings for Chuck anymore and even went as far as to threaten Ellie and kill Morgan and Casey. Very un Sarah like don’t you say, and than she nearly killed Chuck until she saw the writing on the wall lol had to say it. Quinn still left his mark long after he was gone. I am sorry Dave its not convincing enough to say that my imagination feels that Chuck and Sarah will be fine when it still could of not change things at all.

        The fact that Chuck still stood by her was major growth on Chuck’s part though. However, the facts are the facts and Quinn won with regards to creating such division between Sarah and Chuck that it really was well done, and as you said before Quinn didn’t care if he died or not he was set out to destroy Chuck.

      • Both of those POV are why I wonder if the Trojan outright erased or simply suppresses memories..after all the things Sarah remembers throughout Goodbye are quite specific and if it were true amnesia I don’t quite buy her being able to recall such specific’s interesting to think about this.

      • Christopher says:

        The thing is a bad guy doesn’t have to win a war to make an lasting impact For example didnt Chuck use Orion’s lasting hold on V olkoff to lure him out The impact on Alexei’ s life is just as bad especially when you take in account the suppression was on Hartley’s real life something Orion regretted doing unlike Quinn

      • atcDave says:

        Making an impact is not “winning”. There’s no POV about it. Quinn died. His plans were foiled. His opponents were free to continue their lives. That he left a scar is beside the point.
        Its like trying to argue Imperial Japan won WWII. Its a doomed position.

      • Plus all scars eventually heal wether emotional or physical and Chuck can gently help Sarah in that process. It goes back to that old saying “the perfect act of love is sacrifice” he’s wiling to accept Sarah and not force her to feel any particular way while reassuring her that he’ll always be there for her, instead of dwelling on what he’d lost and pressing the issue like he did in S3. Besides I think it speaks volumes that of all the places she might’ve gone that beach (which is a beautiful location) is where she ended up:)

      • revdr says:

        I agree…Chuck and Sarah are screen characters…but on some plane of existence they a real to us, Real enough that we are talking about them as though we know them; and we do, because we watch them and their exploits on our tv’s and computers or phones or whatever. As to whether Chuck and Sarah are married when the credits roll…of course the are; remember the wedding? I do; we all do. Everyone does. Everyone that is except the bride. She’s his wife, she just doesn’t remember. No problem! The bigger question would be: are they a couple? That’s where our imaginations come into play; thanks to the writer, who says that oh yes, they are together, while pointing out that they get to fall in love all over again. Well, unless it was a 5 minute courtship, I have to wonder. But that’s what they wanted, right?

      • Plus Chuck has her spy-will which she gave him personally and for somebody as complex as Sarah that says quite a lot about how much Chuck “healed” her. I say healed because prior to meeting Chuck she’d been (seemingly) betrayed by Bryce and chosen simply as a pawn by her handler (I forget his name) who saw her as “a pathetic loner, with no friends or family who’s file screamed for attention”, given her upbringing it’s clear these things had a severely negative affect (or effect) on her personal(not professional) self-worth, Chuck was the only person to treat her as “more than just a name, rank and serial number, which over time healed those prior emotional scars and showed her that she’s worth it on a personal level.

        My point is that even though she doesn’t remember being his wife at the end it doesn’t mean she isn’t or never was and I think some people take it that way, Sarah’s final arc is very similar to a move called The Vow, which was based on the experience of a real life husband who’s wife ended up with total amnesia after a car accident

      • atcDave says:

        The Vow actually came out at about the same time the Chuck finale did. From what I’ve read, the real story is actually even a better parallel than the movie was (IRL, they never divorced). One of our own regular readers here, ref51907 (AKA Erik) also has a similar story he shared with us some time ago.
        But yeah Josh there is every reason to believe Chuck and Sarah would be fine, quickly. There’s the spy will, her own support network (Carina, Emma, Jack) and her own nature. Remember she fell for Chuck initially in 24 hours. Obviously it took a while for that initial affection to grow into a mature and committed love, but there’s every reason to believe it will develop even quicker the second time around.
        Now for the record, I still call the end a story telling failure. The simple fact so many viewers can question if it was a happy ending, and the writer’s insistence it was, is an obvious disconnect. And the very definition of failure in my book.
        But I have no doubt the next chapter is Chuck and Sarah starting a family and a new, safer version of Carmichael Industries.

      • That type of ending certainly causes a disconnect especially in people who prefer closure in the form of hard physical evidence but Chuck was one of the more successfully written ambiguous endings, if you want a show that was a total failure in that department, that (to me) was without question 7th Heaven. In fact I’d go so far as to call 7th the worst series finale (it’s second one) in tv history!! Every time I think about it it gets me mad!

      • atcDave says:

        I’m not familiar with 7th Heaven, but Goodbye caused a strong reaction here. This site became a support group for six months. A majority may have liked it, but a very sizable group was hurt or outraged.

      • revdr says:

        Josh you’re right about 7th Heaven. The thing is, there never should have been a second finale; the show should have ended the prior year (like it was supposed to). It was the fault of the network. That was the 1st year of the mash-up of the WB/Paramount networks to become the CW, and they chose another year (at the 11th hour) of 7th rather than continue with Veronica Mars. Huge mistake. They also cancelled Everwood that year which actually worked in our favor, because we got Sarah Lancaster our of the deal.

  33. Christopher says:

    Baddie the belgium also was important to the story. He showed Sarah what her life would be like without Chuck. and as I am thinking about this The finale Arc would of been the final result of Phase Three except Quinn was able to erase her memories. Sarah was able to make the save. Chuck had to deal with the after effects.

    man I love talking about impact villians

    • Christopher
      it’s funny that u mentioned phase 3 and leftovers, I literally JUST finished both on what’s probably my 8th run thru of the series!

      Phase three is similar yet very different to Chuck versus Sarah in the sense that in both her personality is unforgiving and driven but for entirely different reasons. We know as Phase 3 opens Sarah feels an overwhelming sense of guilt and responsibly for Chucks kidnapping, prior to that episode she never realized that Chuck mattered so much to her and until she’s forced to feel life without him treats him as an asset rather than a parter/boyfriend after this episode is when I really believe she began to dislike her spy life (albeit slowly), the episode proves that, as Morgan reminds Chuck in Goodbye, (paraphrasing) ” Use your heart because, like you told me it always knows more than our brains”

      Chuck versus Sarah is without question the darkest episode of the series but what makes it great is that Zach and especially Yvonne were able to put countless emotions into a single episode (relief, uncertainty, desperation, panic, guilt, anger sadness, acceptance, understanding, the list is endless really) and it really show chucks growth in his ability to control his emotions, which because of the nature of the episode is something people seem to overlook. S3 Chuck would’ve been unable to pay attention to or accept the various “red flags” (the odd, abrupt mood changes in Sarah; the missing tranquilizer darts and the intersect glasses in her bag) which would’ve put everyone else in his life in danger of death. Brainwashing is very difficult to fix, which is why I appreciate so much what Casey did for chuck, despite what he may say he loves the guy like a brother:) That’s probably the biggest gesture of friendship there is and opened the door for the Charah relationship to begin anew:) it wasn’t something he had to do, which shows much growth in his character too:)

      I think the final plot/memory loss arcs were great because there’s both pros and cons to it and despite the differing opinions it’s kept us all invested in and talking about the show, which I’m sure we all agree is a fun thing considering it’s been off air for 2 years. Anytime I need my fill of Charah I just start over:)

      Do u find yourself noticing stuff u may have missed each time u watch it over again?

  34. I’ve thought long and hard about why I don’t have a problem with the ending of Chuck and I finally figured it out! It’s the song that accompanied the scene (Rivers and Roads:by The Head and the Heart) It made me perfectly satisfied:) That might be odd to everybody else but that song combined with the obvious full circle, symbolism of the pilots beach scene made me smile so broadly and still does:)

    What can I say, I’m a sensitive guy:)

    • revdr says:

      Yeah Josh; but all the song tells you that they have many rivers to cross and roads to travel until they get back to where they were. I saw the symbolism too…that’s pretty much saying the it’s not the end but more of a beginning. Where is the fun in that….to have gone through so much only to have to start over? That’s cruel.

      • I guess I’m just one of the fans that didn’t react negatively to the ending. I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard ether, after all there are millions of Chuck fans worldwide:)

      • atcDave says:

        Josh I’d say you’re in the majority. Polls we’ve seen indicate 70-80% of fans loved the end. But those who disliked it often disliked it strongly.

    • atcDave says:

      The song is a major issue. I thought it was far too negative and depressing. I needed a journey’s end sort of song; not a suggestion of how much difficulty lay ahead. Very poorly chosen I thought.

      • revdr says:

        Yeah, Dave; I actually would have loved a callback to Band of Horses’ “No One’s Gonna Love You”….can you imagine the symbolism with that song?

      • Well the poll data is certainly comforting Dave. As far as the song goes I thought it conveyed the exact opposite mood and message. No matter what happens from that point on, they’ll get thru it.

      • atcDave says:

        Rev that would have been awesome! There was an alternate version posted at right after it ran. I don’t remember now the song chosen, but it struck me as much more appropriate. It might be floating around on Youtube?

        Josh I have tried to take it in the light you mention. But it sure isn’t how it struck me that first night!

      • mr2686 says:

        I’m with you on that Josh. Perfect song and I wouldn’t change it for anything, in fact, I think No one’s gonna love you would have been very depressing in that situation.

      • anthropocene says:

        Again, when we get to discussing 5.13 for real, we can all suggest our favorite alternatives to “Rivers and Roads.”

    • revdr says:

      Again Josh; that’s the point. No one doubt’s that they will get past it. The ending was indeed very hopeful. But the question is: Why did they have to go down that road in the first place?. There was no closure; it was a non-ending. The writer deliberately left the ending ambiguous meaning that it actually could go either way. He says that they’re together, but we don’t see that. We just have to take his word for it. I wanted more. Chuck and Sarah deserved more.

      • atcDave says:

        Well no rev, the song and writer DID say they made it. That isn’t in question, that part is not ambiguous. Its the how long, how much journey lies ahead that was left vague.

    • Aplegat says:

      I find pieces of my reaction to a few last episodes in all of above posts. I thought the last story arc was really disappointing, mainly of course because of the mess the creators decided to put Sarah in, but there were also other reasons, which I will leave aside for now. However, although I certainly wished for the last scene to be more pronounced and give more resolution, I think within the confines set for it by the creators it was acted very well by Yvonne and Zach, and also had the perfect score. I love the choice of “Rivers and Roads”, I think it’s a beautiful song and conveys perfectly the determination and hope that can be felt there.

      As it’s my first post here, let me say hello and thank you for the amazing job you have been doing in this blog. I’m a latecomer to the show. I’ve heard the show’s name dropped here and there in geeky circles, but not that often, and from the scant knowledge I had on its premise I didn’t think I would like it that much. Finally I got it at the end of last year and decided to give it a go. I thought the pilot was good enough, but still I wasn’t sure if this mix of action and comedy had enough legs to carry it far. Then more and more hints of character progression started to show, and I was sucked in. I swallowed the whole of five seasons in two weeks at the turn of January and February, and I work full time; how crazy is that? 😉 Such heavy binge watching has not happened to me for years, there were shows I liked much and watched on average an episode an evenening for periods of time, but nothing to this extent since my teen years.

      When the watching was finished and my own set of Chuck DVDs on its way from the UK I started to look for people’s impressions on the show in general and the final story arc in particular, and found Thinkling’s great interpretation of the finale in this blog. And I know I will be coming back here when rewatching the show to read your thoughts and episode analysis. I only wish I was along for the ride when the show was in its primary run. But I am glad it is getting more following after its initial run, thanks to Netflix or otherwise (Netflix is sadly not available in my corner of the world); on IMDB forums a user pointed out that the show’s rating increased from 7.9 or 8.0 before Netflix to 8.3 now, which is a substantial rise and a proof it is going strong.

      • atcDave says:

        Hey Aplegat it is always great to welcome another fan to the family! Watching the show real time, for five years was certainly an amazing experience, but it sounds like your two weeks of immersion was amazing in a different way, and that’s great too.
        There’s no doubt the way we are exposed to the show affects some of our perceptions and judgments. Sometimes it makes finding common ground a little tricky. But in the end, we’re all Chuck fans. So we would love to see your thoughts and commentary at any time. Just be prepared, we all get pretty passionate around here!

      • Aplegat says:


        Thank you for your kind welcome. You are right that it was an amazing experience, and also that this way of watching makes for somewhat different perceptions than the regular way. Reading viewers’ impressions I was surprised, for instance, how poorly the first half of season 3 was received by many viewers (you included, I realize). It was heartwrenching to see Sarah and Chuck’s relationship disintegrate this way, but still I thought Chuck’s attempts at becoming more than somewhat accidental hero, Sarah’s hurt after all the commitment she has shown and letting her guard down for once, their confusion with changes in their lives – I thought this thread was carried out rather well, Chuck sometimes coming across as a twerp notwithstanding. I also thought Brandon Routh’s Shaw was a welcome addition for this arc, his composure and experience making for a convincing subtext of rivalry and mentoring mix with Chuck, and a prospect for easing Sarah’s pain and confusion, if nothing more.

        I realize, though, that all this angst present in the “Misery Arc” felt very different to the majority of viewers, watching it unfold week by week, than to me, having the continuation right at hand and never being more than two or three days of binge watching away from its resolution.

      • mr2686 says:

        Aplegat, Chuck is one of those shows that really does play better when watching multiple episodes at once. In real time, many of the issues that some of the people have with the story and treatment of the characters, seemed magnified when waiting to find out a resolution. In season 3, this was REALLY magnified when there was a 3 week break between Mask and Fake Name. I remember watching in real time and thinking that it seemed the writers were taking an awful long time to resolve what Chuck saw at the end of Santa Claus in season 2, and then it dawned on me that it was actually only one episode and that there was an 8 week break in between. Chuck definitely has that affect on us.

      • dkd says:

        There are a lot of people, myself included, who actually liked Season 3. There were a few less than stellar episodes, but, overall, I think it was a crucial party of Chuck’s “Hero’s Journey”. Every good hero’s journey needs a period in the story where the hero is really put through the ringer and the first half of Season 3 was a big part of that, though there were events in the second half–e.g. Papa B’s murder–that were part of that as well.

        Had you been part of fandom at the time, you would have found a lot more diverse opinions than the “misery arc” one. New fans may find it interesting to read Alan Sepinwall’s or Maureen Ryan’s weekly reviews of Chuck written during its original airings.

      • I think people enjoy binge watching chuck it’s interest to people has skyrocketed since it became streamable which bodes extremely well for reboot possibilities. It’s gaining fans at a steady yet surprisingly fast pace.

      • atcDave says:

        Season Three in particular seems MUCH better received now than it was when it first ran. I’m one of the very few regular commenters left who had a major problem with it, yet I’m quite confident a majority disliked it to some degree or another when it ran. Read some of first impressions threads from early 2010!
        But complaints were not really about Chuck growing up, or becoming an agent (although I know some who disliked that aspect too). The biggest was always Chuck being an ass for most of the arc. Sarah was kind of jerky too, which made everything worse.
        Add in bitter disappointment with having fought hard to save the show, then getting a product we didn’t even recognize.
        I have no doubt being able to blow through it all in a couple sittings makes it all easier to digest. But it will always be a major sore spot to me.

        Other things, as MR aluded to, are impacted too. Like that long break between Santa Claus and Third Dimension. Or just eight months off between Marlin and First Date, and again between Ring and Pink Slip. Watching live we were also constantly teased with interviews and spoilers; some built excitment, some built mostly outrage. It was both fun and stressful. I wouldn’t trade it for anything, but I do recognize newer viewers will have much less baggage and different impressions on many things.

      • revdr says:

        I was one who watched it all live the first time around, and, like Dave, I was not very fond of season 3.0 (at least through most of Tic Tac). I did find little things throughout those episodes that kept me with a glimmer of hope. I certainly didn’t like Pink Slip, but I thought initially that things would get better after 3 Words. Alas’, no such luck. It was better after several re-watches, but again, like Dave, I didn’t at all like the was Chuck was portrayed in the first 10 episodes. I kinda understood the way Sarah was acting; after all, she had been rejected and was very hurt, so she threw up that wall again, thinking that she had been foolish for allowing herself to be vulnerable. Enter Shaw. He had zero chance of ever going very far with Sarah since for her he was 1) a rebound and 2) a by the book spy so he was a safety net for her…not a love object. So, there were some things to glean from those episodes. Thankfully, the end result was that they finally got together, although in my mind it would have been better if they had gotten together at beginning of the season, since a huge part of Chuck’s hero’s journey was his relationship with Sarah.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah rev we’re in about exactly the same place on all that. Sarah annoyed me some, but I was most peeved with Chuck’s behavior from the start. The main knock against Sarah just being that she got involved with such a contemptible SOB.
        As I’ve said many times (!), I think if Pink Slip had looked more like Honeymooners we would have run another season or two. And no, I don’t mean it HAD to; but those two episodes stand in such stark contrast in part because they acted on what Sarah’s plan had been from the start.

      • The problem with getting any couple too soon is (especially the main one) is that, once it happens there’s a loss of story potential to a varying degree we lose the excitement and tension that WT/WT factor which isn’t a as much of a problem if the couple is portrayed as soul mates (Jim and Pam from The Office) because we enjoy seeing them slowly build a life together.

        For the record (and I may take a certain amount of flack for saying this which is fine:) I don’t believe in soul mates, I believe people meet, establish a relationship based on things they are mutually attracted to in each other and if it’s a genuine love they worked hard to get through each other’s shortcomings, My parents for example, by the “soul mate” notion are the exact opposite of each other and yet, have been together 25 years thru many ups and downs:)

        It’s tricky for writers knowing when to end the WT/WT portion of tv relationships.,.if they do it too soon fans tend to lose interest because of the lack of tension that usually follows, (Chuck was the exception to this rule) which might be why their is such a mixed opinion of S3. However I think when all is said and done Chuck’s writers/creators gave us great payoffs in the end, To quote (paraphrasing) his vows: “no amount of words express how much I love you, or that I’ll fight for you everyday for the rest of our lives” which he clearly does:)

        People who truly love each other can find a way to get though anything life throws at them:) Mark Swchahn also proved this fact, with Naley on OTH, which demonstrates outstanding, (albeit controversial) writing.

      • CaptMediocre says:

        What people who binge watch (especially now) can’t appreciate is the 5 – 6 months fans had to get primed for a story that the more TPTB were pushing (Comic-Con slip-ups, PLI announcements, etc) the less and less sounded like what fans (in general) wanted to see. Expectations be damned.

        I mean, to this date, the hashtag #IblameShaw still exist on twitter to explain everything from Justin Bieber to show cancellations to a flat tire. Such is the legacy of that character.

      • atcDave says:

        Yeah CM it sure left an enduring legacy!

        I think its more than just the time itself though. For those of us who went through it, we were somewhat aware of the process. We cheered or agonized (mostly agonized!) over every news item, interview and press release. Many of us, so hopes and expectations crushed gradually. For months. It led to a strong feeling, for a long time, that I really wished I hadn’t fought for that renewal.
        While coming to the show now viewers see a complete package. There’s no angst over the process, it simply is what it is. Like it or not. I think that different perspective about the production process makes a big difference in terms of accepting what it is.

      • Aplegat says:

        Yes, I think I can imagine how rooting for the show, fighting for it to stay afloat and following closely all developments only to finally get something you didn’t really recognize may have left a strong and lasting impression.

      • atcDave says:

        Josh I completely get that knowing how and when to end wt/wt is a big and difficult thing for a show runner to decide. And how to make such a big change on a show, and keep it interesting to your audience is bound to be one of the more difficult transitions to ever deal with. But it is their JOB to get it right. And given how often show runners get it wrong, and drag things out a season or more longer than they should, tells me this is an institutional problem with the industry. So as far as that goes, Chuck’s writers may have done better than most.
        BUT, and this is really big, it remains a sort of betrayal to many of us for a few reasons. First is that we were actually told when Colonel ran (by CF himself) that it was a “complete game changer”. That absolutely affected expectations. Yvonne fueled the fire right after Ring ran by saying she looked forward to the next step of seeing how these two people grew to know each other better (later comments make it obvious she was just completely outside the loop). Add to that, when S3 was ordered, it was a 13 episode order only, and NBC plainly said there was unlikely to be any more. So the show runners (I believe mostly JS) concocted a story that would pointedly not ever let us see, what most fans were itching to see. When I think of that, and think of what an awesome screen couple Chuck and Sarah were, what great chemistry they had, it almost makes my head explode that they devised a story that would finish the show off without ever really having them together on screen. To me, this is practically a crime against nature. And I firmly believe it was a betrayal of the fans who saved the show, and a major entertainment mistake. (Our poll here, looks like only 20% of the audience was mostly happy with the misery arc).

        Now, I have to stop for a big breath, I am immensely pleased that is not how it ended. From Honeymooners to the end of the series, we got more the show I wanted to see. There are still ups and downs, no show is ever perfect, but once we get to Honeymooners most of my complaints are more like nitpicks, not a huge thing.
        I will always be grateful we got two seasons of what I most wanted to see. But the misery arc was pure misery for me. It doesn’t even matter if it had a few good moments or even good episodes (I do love Angel de la Muerte!); it’s the maddening folly of what they tried to do that will always infuriate me.

        Footnote: one fun tidbit. Honeymooners remains my favorite episode (not by a wide margin! There are several I like nearly as much). It first ran on my anniversary. What a great night…

      • Thanks for the explanation on site navigation and layout, I’d never posted on blogs or threads before so I wasn’t really aware of how it was organized:)

      • atcDave says:

        Hey not a problem Josh. And don’t be shy about asking questions about anything. We are happy to help things work better for everyone!

  35. Completely understandable:)

    Just for the record, despite finding Chuck late in its run I watched the finale for the first time, on the night of its original airing too:)

  36. I heard in an interview that CF wanted an impactful ending but couldn’t bear to kill anyone off, (thank god) I suppose what he ultimately came up with was the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Adam Baldwin thought death would be a poetic end for Casey and even pushed for it but after watching the finale was glad CF didn’t do it.

  37. atcDave says:

    I have a request for continuing discussion on this thread. Over three hundred comments can get a little unwieldy, especially for those working from mobile devices, this page gets slow to load and hard to navigate. No doubt we use this site more like a forum than its designers ever intended!

    But when starting a new topic, either try to find an existing post that already matches that topic (and really, I’d encourage everyone to read some of our older stuff anyway) especially if it relates to a particular episode; or if its more random, put it in the most current main post. This has the added advantage of keeping it on the site’s home page, and will keep your comments easier to find (at least for a few weeks!) when they drop off the “Recent Comments” queue.
    I know navigating can be a little tricky, but we do have a couple tools to help. On the right side of the page you can search easily by either date or topic. And the “Blog Episode Guide” header not only takes you to a listing of every episode, but it provides links to posts and discussion on every single episode (or at least it will in a few weeks when we’ve finished this current re-watch).

    Minor footnote. S3 in particular has duel posts; both regular and “Alternative”. The alternative posts are where we tried more to pick apart and re-imagine the season. Both posts are link from the Blog Episode Guide.

    • atcDave says:

      I guess I should be more specific and say “Archive” is the label for sorting by date; and “Topic” brings up the various themes we’ve written about here. You can also click on any of the six author’s names at the upper right side to pull up the posts we’ve written.
      Obviously all of this is more useful if you have some idea what you’re looking for. But I would encourage readers to explore the site, and comment wherever they want. Let us know if you encounter any posts with comments shut off (via the “contact us” header) and we’ll take a look at it. We have had occasional spam problems here that have lead to some older posts being shut off for a while. I only know of a couple posts that were deliberately done with no comments allowed on purpose.

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